Paintshop and Corel

On 2013-11-16 16:40:28 +0000, Savageduck said:

On 2013-11-16 14:26:30 +0000, Robert Coe said:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:16:47 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2013-11-16 02:32:19 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
:
: On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:34:42 -0800, Savageduck
: wrote:
:
: On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
:
: A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
: background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
: advertising firm.
:
: He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
: graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
: use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
: there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
: for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
: He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.
:
: He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
: caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
: to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
: 2 exceeded the losses from group 1.
:
: They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
: graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
: the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
: of the total Adobe market.
:
: Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
: prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
: higher once the introductory discount period is over.
:
: The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
: CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
: $20/month right now.
:
: And in a year's time?
:
: There is no indication that the standard pricing is going to change
: after 12 months. There is still a fair amount of ambiguity over what is
: going to happen for those CS3-CS6 owners who buy the special $10/month
: - 12 month offer (the one which closes at the end of the year). The
: wording could lead the buyer to believe that if they fulfill the 12
: month contract they would be eligible to renew at their current rate.
: Those folks would hope that would be the $10/month. However, the
: wording is ambiguous enough that to make that assumption would be shear
: conjecture. That bargain deal buyer could just as easily find his
: subscription doubled on renewal. So there is no telling whether Adobe
: is saying they would be able to continue at the $10/month of is they
: will join all others at the going rate of $20/month.

Is there any concept of buying a longer-term prepaid subscription to lock in
the lower price? It might be un-Adobic thing to offer, but it would resolve
the ambiguity.

Bob

Unfortunately no. I would love to have a lifetime $10/month
subscription, but right now the one this which is no ambiguous is the
12 month term of the rental contract and the offer for renewal at the
"current rate" what is ambiguous for the purchasers of the promotion
deal for CS3-CS6 owners is just what the term "current rate" implies,
the "current promotional rate" or the "current standard rate".

Damn! did I write that one confusing sentence?
It should read more along these lines:
I would love to have a lifetime/perpetual $10/month subscription.
However, the only non-ambiguity is the 12 month term of the promotional
rental contract. The renewal of the promotional contract for owners of
CS3-CS6, is what remains ambiguous and vague. There is not way to tell
if they are implying that the promotional rate remains intact for the
renewal or if the "current standard" rate comes into effect.

This gives this qualifying group a great 12 month promotional deal with
the question of a possible doubling of their subscription at renewal,
or the reward for loyal customers continuing.
Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal. If they
are rewarded for their loyalty with a $10/month renewal it becomes a
win-win situation for both parties as emotionally Adobe had lost them
as customers, and the promotion would have brought them back into the
tent.

Remember this promotion targets that group of Photoshop users who have
vowed that they prefer to own rather than rent, and they have bought
their last Photoshop update, I was one of them. PeteN was one, he has
been looking for something to replace Photoshop, Alan Browne has
declared that he has bought his las Photoshop upgrade. When I bought my
CS6 upgrade I did so believing that would be the end of the Photoshop
upgrade path for me. Each of my upgrades CS3-CS4-CS5-CS6 cost me $200
and I was not going to spend that ever again. With this promotion they
have me back on the hook for $120 for at least another 12 months, for a
taste of PS CC, a perpetual upgrade. My typical upgrade spending was a
$200 upgrade every 18-30 months, so $120/year would be well within that.

I bought the $10/month 12 month promotion last week and so far I am
very happy. If they allow me to renew next year at $10 they have me
hooked. If not I still have CS6 and I will probably buy the LR5 upgrade
to my LR4. I really like LR5 and all it has to offer.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2013-11-16 15:58:02 +0000, PeterN said:

On 11/16/2013 9:26 AM, Robert Coe wrote:


Is there any concept of buying a longer-term prepaid subscription to lock in
the lower price? It might be un-Adobic thing to offer, but it would resolve
the ambiguity.

Bob


I asked Adobe that question,. The person I spoke with did not know the
answer. I anticipate a return call.


Go on Peter, just get it, you can afford $10/month for 12 months. If I
can afford it, I know you can. The worst that can happen is a return to
your installed CS6 if you choose not to renew. That is how I have
approached the problem, and how I have rationalized my decision to dive
in.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 11/16/2013 11:57 AM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2013-11-16 15:58:02 +0000, PeterN said:

On 11/16/2013 9:26 AM, Robert Coe wrote:


Is there any concept of buying a longer-term prepaid subscription to
lock in
the lower price? It might be un-Adobic thing to offer, but it would
resolve
the ambiguity.

Bob


I asked Adobe that question,. The person I spoke with did not know the
answer. I anticipate a return call.


Go on Peter, just get it, you can afford $10/month for 12 months. If I
can afford it, I know you can. The worst that can happen is a return to
your installed CS6 if you choose not to renew. That is how I have
approached the problem, and how I have rationalized my decision to dive in.



If you don't ask, the girl never says yes. G

--
PeterN

| Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
| Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
| have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal.

The whole point of such marketing is to get you hooked.
They hope you won't be willing to go back to the old version
after the deal is over. Meanwhile, if you found the added cost
of $10/month worthwhile then you must already think the
rental version is notably better than CS6, which implies that
they can probably get away with a price increase at year's
end, because you'll be loathe to return to CS6 by then.

It's like cable TV promos that promise "only $xx
for 6 months" without telling you the real price. Anyone
who's not prone to lying to themselves will find out
what the real price actually is and decide whether
they want the product at *that* price.

(Salesmen rarely cheat outright. They just help one to
lie to oneself.)

On 2013-11-16 18:32:59 +0000, "Mayayana" said:

| Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
| Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
| have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal.

The whole point of such marketing is to get you hooked.
They hope you won't be willing to go back to the old version
after the deal is over. Meanwhile, if you found the added cost
of $10/month worthwhile then you must already think the
rental version is notably better than CS6, which implies that
they can probably get away with a price increase at year's
end, because you'll be loathe to return to CS6 by then.

Perhaps, perhaps. That said I have my copy of CS6 and while I can
certainly live with it now. Having a 12 month promotional "trial" of CC
was tempting. I am already thinking in terms of buying an LR5 upgrade
to run with CS6 as a form of insurance. So for now I will live with the
Adobe ambiguity and make any decision to renew once their intent is a
tad clearer.

It's like cable TV promos that promise "only $xx
for 6 months" without telling you the real price. Anyone
who's not prone to lying to themselves will find out
what the real price actually is and decide whether
they want the product at *that* price.

(Salesmen rarely cheat outright. They just help one to
lie to oneself.)

Yup! However, the big difference for current CS owners is, we will
still have our original tools, whereas the cable subscriber who drops
service after the promotional period has nothing.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 11/16/13 10:49 AM, in article
2013111610494361729-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, "Savageduck"
wrote:

On 2013-11-16 18:32:59 +0000, "Mayayana" said:

| Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
| Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
| have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal.

The whole point of such marketing is to get you hooked.
They hope you won't be willing to go back to the old version
after the deal is over. Meanwhile, if you found the added cost
of $10/month worthwhile then you must already think the
rental version is notably better than CS6, which implies that
they can probably get away with a price increase at year's
end, because you'll be loathe to return to CS6 by then.

Perhaps, perhaps. That said I have my copy of CS6 and while I can
certainly live with it now. Having a 12 month promotional "trial" of CC
was tempting. I am already thinking in terms of buying an LR5 upgrade
to run with CS6 as a form of insurance. So for now I will live with the
Adobe ambiguity and make any decision to renew once their intent is a
tad clearer.

It's like cable TV promos that promise "only $xx
for 6 months" without telling you the real price. Anyone
who's not prone to lying to themselves will find out
what the real price actually is and decide whether
they want the product at *that* price.

(Salesmen rarely cheat outright. They just help one to
lie to oneself.)

Yup! However, the big difference for current CS owners is, we will
still have our original tools, whereas the cable subscriber who drops
service after the promotional period has nothing.


One thing to take into consideration of this "one year trial offer" is will
you be able to go back to CS6. I know that you can not go back in Lightroom
as one of my fellow students discovered a couple of years ago. The class was
using LR2 and he bought LR3. When he took his LR2 work home and installed it
on his LR3 version home he discovered (and so did the whole class) that he
could no longer work LR3 work on the school's LR2 system.

I would be cautious of assuming that you can go backwards. New stuff
shouldn't be a problem but if for some reason you want to work on an older
photo you may not be able to.

--
Martha



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On 11/16/2013 2:31 PM, MI wrote:



On 11/16/13 10:49 AM, in article
2013111610494361729-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, "Savageduck"
wrote:

On 2013-11-16 18:32:59 +0000, "Mayayana" said:

| Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
| Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
| have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal.

The whole point of such marketing is to get you hooked.
They hope you won't be willing to go back to the old version
after the deal is over. Meanwhile, if you found the added cost
of $10/month worthwhile then you must already think the
rental version is notably better than CS6, which implies that
they can probably get away with a price increase at year's
end, because you'll be loathe to return to CS6 by then.

Perhaps, perhaps. That said I have my copy of CS6 and while I can
certainly live with it now. Having a 12 month promotional "trial" of CC
was tempting. I am already thinking in terms of buying an LR5 upgrade
to run with CS6 as a form of insurance. So for now I will live with the
Adobe ambiguity and make any decision to renew once their intent is a
tad clearer.

It's like cable TV promos that promise "only $xx
for 6 months" without telling you the real price. Anyone
who's not prone to lying to themselves will find out
what the real price actually is and decide whether
they want the product at *that* price.

(Salesmen rarely cheat outright. They just help one to
lie to oneself.)

Yup! However, the big difference for current CS owners is, we will
still have our original tools, whereas the cable subscriber who drops
service after the promotional period has nothing.


One thing to take into consideration of this "one year trial offer" is will
you be able to go back to CS6. I know that you can not go back in Lightroom
as one of my fellow students discovered a couple of years ago. The class was
using LR2 and he bought LR3. When he took his LR2 work home and installed it
on his LR3 version home he discovered (and so did the whole class) that he
could no longer work LR3 work on the school's LR2 system.

I would be cautious of assuming that you can go backwards. New stuff
shouldn't be a problem but if for some reason you want to work on an older
photo you may not be able to.


I would think that if you keep your RAW files, that would not be a
problem. Especially since you can use non-destructive editing.
You can also save as a TIFF, or other backward compatible format.

--
PeterN

On 2013-11-16 19:31:50 +0000, MI said:




On 11/16/13 10:49 AM, in article
2013111610494361729-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, "Savageduck"
wrote:

On 2013-11-16 18:32:59 +0000, "Mayayana" said:

| Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
| Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
| have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal.

The whole point of such marketing is to get you hooked.
They hope you won't be willing to go back to the old version
after the deal is over. Meanwhile, if you found the added cost
of $10/month worthwhile then you must already think the
rental version is notably better than CS6, which implies that
they can probably get away with a price increase at year's
end, because you'll be loathe to return to CS6 by then.

Perhaps, perhaps. That said I have my copy of CS6 and while I can
certainly live with it now. Having a 12 month promotional "trial" of CC
was tempting. I am already thinking in terms of buying an LR5 upgrade
to run with CS6 as a form of insurance. So for now I will live with the
Adobe ambiguity and make any decision to renew once their intent is a
tad clearer.

It's like cable TV promos that promise "only $xx
for 6 months" without telling you the real price. Anyone
who's not prone to lying to themselves will find out
what the real price actually is and decide whether
they want the product at *that* price.

(Salesmen rarely cheat outright. They just help one to
lie to oneself.)

Yup! However, the big difference for current CS owners is, we will
still have our original tools, whereas the cable subscriber who drops
service after the promotional period has nothing.


One thing to take into consideration of this "one year trial offer" is will
you be able to go back to CS6.

Yes the RAW files remain the RAW files, adjusted TIFs, PSDs, & JPEGs
remain standard format.
I can take a layered TIF or PSD created in PS CC and open it in PS
CS(x) without issue. All of the adjustments made in each layer remains
intact. The exception would be losing the ability to repeat an
adjustment unique to the later PS version. For example, if I had a
layer as a "Smart Object" created in PS CC and I applied the "RAW
Filter" which is not found in CS6, I would not get the benefit of that
Smart Filter in CS6.

I know that you can not go back in Lightroom as one of my fellow
students discovered a couple of years ago. The class was
using LR2 and he bought LR3. When he took his LR2 work home and installed it
on his LR3 version home he discovered (and so did the whole class) that he
could no longer work LR3 work on the school's LR2 system.

It depends on what he was trying to do. If he was bringing a finished
copy of his image file to demonstrate his final result, he should not
have a problem. If he expected to be able to engage in collaborative or
incremental work on the two different vintages of LR he is going to
have a problem.

Each version of Lightroom maintains its own catalog system and the
current version has to be upgraded & converted to run work stored in an
earlier version, FOR CATALOGED DNG files and adjustments. for each
version LR the adjusted XMP data is stored in these catalog files.

For example, on this computer in my Lightroom folder, I have cat files
for LR2, LR4, LR5 all living in harmony in the same folder.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/Fil...enshot_370.jpg

Also, LR2, LR3, LR4, & LR5 each use different versions of the ACR
engine making access to the nondestructive edits in different versions
imposible. Only completed work, or original non-adjusted copies would
be interchangeable.

For the LR3 student to export his completed work to be accessible on an
earlier version he would have to export and save as a JPEG, TIF, PSD,
PNG, DNG, or Original. Then bring file he has exported and saved to the
school's LR2 via memory stick or cloud service has to be imported into
the school's LR2. He would not be able to move back through any of the
nondestructive adjustments he made on LR3, you would only see the
results of what he/she did and make further adjustments from there.

Of course the school should consider discussing an educational package
with Adobe.


I would be cautious of assuming that you can go backwards. New stuff
shouldn't be a problem but if for some reason you want to work on an older
photo you may not be able to.

You can move backwards, you just have to go about it logically with
realistic expectations.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2013-11-16 20:10:51 +0000, PeterN said:

On 11/16/2013 2:31 PM, MI wrote:



On 11/16/13 10:49 AM, in article
2013111610494361729-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, "Savageduck"
wrote:

On 2013-11-16 18:32:59 +0000, "Mayayana" said:

| Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
| Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
| have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal.

The whole point of such marketing is to get you hooked.
They hope you won't be willing to go back to the old version
after the deal is over. Meanwhile, if you found the added cost
of $10/month worthwhile then you must already think the
rental version is notably better than CS6, which implies that
they can probably get away with a price increase at year's
end, because you'll be loathe to return to CS6 by then.

Perhaps, perhaps. That said I have my copy of CS6 and while I can
certainly live with it now. Having a 12 month promotional "trial" of CC
was tempting. I am already thinking in terms of buying an LR5 upgrade
to run with CS6 as a form of insurance. So for now I will live with the
Adobe ambiguity and make any decision to renew once their intent is a
tad clearer.

It's like cable TV promos that promise "only $xx
for 6 months" without telling you the real price. Anyone
who's not prone to lying to themselves will find out
what the real price actually is and decide whether
they want the product at *that* price.

(Salesmen rarely cheat outright. They just help one to
lie to oneself.)

Yup! However, the big difference for current CS owners is, we will
still have our original tools, whereas the cable subscriber who drops
service after the promotional period has nothing.


One thing to take into consideration of this "one year trial offer" is will
you be able to go back to CS6. I know that you can not go back in Lightroom
as one of my fellow students discovered a couple of years ago. The class was
using LR2 and he bought LR3. When he took his LR2 work home and installed it
on his LR3 version home he discovered (and so did the whole class) that he
could no longer work LR3 work on the school's LR2 system.

I would be cautious of assuming that you can go backwards. New stuff
shouldn't be a problem but if for some reason you want to work on an older
photo you may not be able to.


I would think that if you keep your RAW files, that would not be a
problem. Especially since you can use non-destructive editing.
You can also save as a TIFF, or other backward compatible format.

In LR all adjustments are applied virtually and retained in the
application specific cat file. So in LR none of the adjusted virtual
copies would be backward compatible. All of the RAW files or DNGs would
be movable between versions. The ony files other than originally
imorted fies and virtual copies found in LR are image files saved back
to LR after using an external editor such as PS, one of the NIK
products, OnOne Suite, etc.
Any adjusted & finished images exported and saved in the standard file
format of choice would be accessible to any image editor.

Storing RAW files using whatever archive system you have devised is
always prudent.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 20:46:22 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

Also, if Eric does decide to go with the CC program he should have LR
in that package and the PS-LR integration is seamless and symbiotic
giving him all the tools he would need.

If I can confirm that the price I saw yesterday is for the package you
have just described I'm signing up this afternoon. :-)
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens