Paintshop and Corel

A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
advertising firm.

He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.

He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
2 exceeded the losses from group 1.

Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
higher once the introductory discount period is over. Outsiders can't
easily tell without knowledge of update and renewal figures but my
friends feeling was that Adobe would end up making more money per
licensee out of their cloud software.

He also said he suspected that Adobe prices would tend to squeeze out
the amateur photographer (particularly in those parts of the world
where Adobe prices are higher than the US). As has already been
suggested here, he thought that this would leave room for others to
fill the void being left behind by Adobe.

Yesterday, when I closed Corel's PhotoPaint Pro I found myself staring
at a pop-up telling me that as an existing user I could buy Corel
Draw's Home and Student Suite for $69.99 as opposed to the normal
price of $99.99 (These may be NZ$ in which case US prices may be even
cheaper). Never having heard of Corel Draw's Home and Student Suite I
went looking and found:

http://www.corel.com/static/product_..._Matrix_EN.pdf

Obviously the student's suite is a stripped-down version of the full
Graphic Suite but from reviews it would seem that so much has been
removed that for experienced users it is only somewhat better than a
toy. Pity.

Nevertheless, Corel seems to be under pricing Adobe and trying to move
into the group 1 segment of the market. It is particularly interesting
that they are aiming at students: catch and train them young and you
have got them for life. :-)

I also notice that Corel is developing a range of products for Apple.
Nothing much yet but watch that space.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
advertising firm.

He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.

He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
2 exceeded the losses from group 1.

They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
of the total Adobe market.

Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
higher once the introductory discount period is over.

The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
$20/month right now.

Outsiders can't easily tell without knowledge of update and renewal
figures but my
friends feeling was that Adobe would end up making more money per
licensee out of their cloud software.

Yup! because there were/are users of CS3 who had no intention of
upgrading to CS4, CS5, or CS6 for $200 a step, now they can jump to PS
CC and get LR5 at what amounts to a bargain, and Adobe gets a
subscriber who might have vowed never to sent them another cent.

He also said he suspected that Adobe prices would tend to squeeze out
the amateur photographer (particularly in those parts of the world
where Adobe prices are higher than the US). As has already been
suggested here, he thought that this would leave room for others to
fill the void being left behind by Adobe.

Actually Adobe has made the Photoshop/Lightroom combo more affordable,
or attainable for that class of photographer than ever before. Now
instead of having to find $600-$900 US for PS & another $150 for LR.
all they have to come up with is $20/month or whatever the 1 year
ticket costs. If they have already got a DSLR + lenses, or any of the
cameras in a similar price range, and the necessary computer, they can
easily afford the rent on the Adobe products.

Yesterday, when I closed Corel's PhotoPaint Pro I found myself staring
at a pop-up telling me that as an existing user I could buy Corel
Draw's Home and Student Suite for $69.99 as opposed to the normal
price of $99.99 (These may be NZ$ in which case US prices may be even
cheaper). Never having heard of Corel Draw's Home and Student Suite I
went looking and found:

http://www.corel.com/static/product_..._Matrix_EN.pdf

Obviously

the student's suite is a stripped-down version of the full
Graphic Suite but from reviews it would seem that so much has been
removed that for experienced users it is only somewhat better than a
toy. Pity.

They don't quite explain exactly what those missing "Pro features" are,
beyond the reduced content.

Nevertheless, Corel seems to be under pricing Adobe and trying to move
into the group 1 segment of the market. It is particularly interesting
that they are aiming at students: catch and train them young and you
have got them for life. :-)

....and yet the CC will remain the standard and all those students using
Corel products are going to have to make the change. Don't forget Adobe
also has its student and education packages, also available via the
Creative Cloud. So a school set up with a CC account would be giving
students access to all the Adobe design tools.


I also notice that Corel is developing a range of products for Apple.
Nothing much yet but watch that space.

We shall see.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:18:53 -0500, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 12:33:21 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
advertising firm.

He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.

He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
2 exceeded the losses from group 1.

Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
higher once the introductory discount period is over. Outsiders can't
easily tell without knowledge of update and renewal figures but my
friends feeling was that Adobe would end up making more money per
licensee out of their cloud software.

He also said he suspected that Adobe prices would tend to squeeze out
the amateur photographer (particularly in those parts of the world
where Adobe prices are higher than the US). As has already been
suggested here, he thought that this would leave room for others to
fill the void being left behind by Adobe.

Yesterday, when I closed Corel's PhotoPaint Pro I found myself staring
at a pop-up telling me that as an existing user I could buy Corel
Draw's Home and Student Suite for $69.99 as opposed to the normal
price of $99.99 (These may be NZ$ in which case US prices may be even
cheaper). Never having heard of Corel Draw's Home and Student Suite I
went looking and found:

http://www.corel.com/static/product_..._Matrix_EN.pdf

Obviously the student's suite is a stripped-down version of the full
Graphic Suite but from reviews it would seem that so much has been
removed that for experienced users it is only somewhat better than a
toy. Pity.

Nevertheless, Corel seems to be under pricing Adobe and trying to move
into the group 1 segment of the market. It is particularly interesting
that they are aiming at students: catch and train them young and you
have got them for life. :-)

I also notice that Corel is developing a range of products for Apple.
Nothing much yet but watch that space.

First, Adobe sells Photoshop, not Paintshop. A mental error, but it
makes a difference because there is a program called "Paintshop".

Sorry about that. I should know better because I've got Photopaint. I
always tend to get them confused.

Second, CorelDraw is not a substitute for Photoshop. CorelDraw is a
vector drawing program. (I have CorelDraw) It is not a photo editing
program. There is a package called CorelDraw Graphics Suite X6 that
contains Photo-Paint, but that's US$400.

I wasn't talking about CorelDraw but 'CorelDraw Suite'. That includes
all kinds of things. The current list includes CorelDraw, Corel
PhotoPaint, Power Trace, Website creator, Corel Capture and Corel
Connect.

The situation particularly irritates me. I used PhotoPaint for years
when it was available as a stand alone package. Then, in its wisdom
Corel decided to bundle it with a whole lot of stuff I didn't want, at
a price about 4 times what I had previously paid. That's what drove me
to Paint Shop Pro. But now I see its available at a much more
reasonable price and I might go back to it. It's much cheaper for me
to get access to L*a*b* this way than via Photoshop.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:34:42 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
advertising firm.

He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.

He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
2 exceeded the losses from group 1.

They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
of the total Adobe market.

Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
higher once the introductory discount period is over.

The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
$20/month right now.

And in a year's time?

And in Australasia?

Outsiders can't easily tell without knowledge of update and renewal
figures but my
friends feeling was that Adobe would end up making more money per
licensee out of their cloud software.

Yup! because there were/are users of CS3 who had no intention of
upgrading to CS4, CS5, or CS6 for $200 a step, now they can jump to PS
CC and get LR5 at what amounts to a bargain, and Adobe gets a
subscriber who might have vowed never to sent them another cent.

Yep.

He also said he suspected that Adobe prices would tend to squeeze out
the amateur photographer (particularly in those parts of the world
where Adobe prices are higher than the US). As has already been
suggested here, he thought that this would leave room for others to
fill the void being left behind by Adobe.

Actually Adobe has made the Photoshop/Lightroom combo more affordable,
or attainable for that class of photographer than ever before. Now
instead of having to find $600-$900 US for PS & another $150 for LR.
all they have to come up with is $20/month or whatever the 1 year
ticket costs. If they have already got a DSLR + lenses, or any of the
cameras in a similar price range, and the necessary computer, they can
easily afford the rent on the Adobe products.

I'm puzzled about the Australian price. Every time I look it's
different. Right now its low enough to convert me at the same price as
you have just quoted me above.

Yesterday, when I closed Corel's PhotoPaint Pro I found myself staring
at a pop-up telling me that as an existing user I could buy Corel
Draw's Home and Student Suite for $69.99 as opposed to the normal
price of $99.99 (These may be NZ$ in which case US prices may be even
cheaper). Never having heard of Corel Draw's Home and Student Suite I
went looking and found:

http://www.corel.com/static/product_..._Matrix_EN.pdf

Obviously

the student's suite is a stripped-down version of the full
Graphic Suite but from reviews it would seem that so much has been
removed that for experienced users it is only somewhat better than a
toy. Pity.

They don't quite explain exactly what those missing "Pro features" are,
beyond the reduced content.

Nevertheless, Corel seems to be under pricing Adobe and trying to move
into the group 1 segment of the market. It is particularly interesting
that they are aiming at students: catch and train them young and you
have got them for life. :-)

...and yet the CC will remain the standard and all those students using
Corel products are going to have to make the change.

I think so.

Don't forget Adobe
also has its student and education packages, also available via the
Creative Cloud. So a school set up with a CC account would be giving
students access to all the Adobe design tools.


I also notice that Corel is developing a range of products for Apple.
Nothing much yet but watch that space.

We shall see.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 2013-11-16 02:32:19 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:34:42 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
advertising firm.

He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.

He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
2 exceeded the losses from group 1.

They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
of the total Adobe market.

Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
higher once the introductory discount period is over.

The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
$20/month right now.

And in a year's time?

There is no indication that the standard pricing is going to change
after 12 months. There is still a fair amount of ambiguity over what is
going to happen for those CS3-CS6 owners who buy the special $10/month
- 12 month offer (the one which closes at the end of the year). The
wording could lead the buyer to believe that if they fulfill the 12
month contract they would be eligible to renew at their current rate.
Those folks would hope that would be the $10/month. However, the
wording is ambiguous enough that to make that assumption would be shear
conjecture. That bargain deal buyer could just as easily find his
subscription doubled on renewal. So there is no telling whether Adobe
is saying they would be able to continue at the $10/month of is they
will join all others at the going rate of $20/month.

And in Australasia?

For that you are going to have to make your inquiries of Adobe OZ. That
is unless Adobe HQ in USA is controlling all CC distribution.

Outsiders can't easily tell without knowledge of update and renewal
figures but my
friends feeling was that Adobe would end up making more money per
licensee out of their cloud software.

Yup! because there were/are users of CS3 who had no intention of
upgrading to CS4, CS5, or CS6 for $200 a step, now they can jump to PS
CC and get LR5 at what amounts to a bargain, and Adobe gets a
subscriber who might have vowed never to sent them another cent.

Yep.

He also said he suspected that Adobe prices would tend to squeeze out
the amateur photographer (particularly in those parts of the world
where Adobe prices are higher than the US). As has already been
suggested here, he thought that this would leave room for others to
fill the void being left behind by Adobe.

Actually Adobe has made the Photoshop/Lightroom combo more affordable,
or attainable for that class of photographer than ever before. Now
instead of having to find $600-$900 US for PS & another $150 for LR.
all they have to come up with is $20/month or whatever the 1 year
ticket costs. If they have already got a DSLR + lenses, or any of the
cameras in a similar price range, and the necessary computer, they can
easily afford the rent on the Adobe products.

I'm puzzled about the Australian price. Every time I look it's
different. Right now its low enough to convert me at the same price as
you have just quoted me above.

They might be promoting the CC promotion package. The other thing to
consider as far as Adobe OZ goes the CC software is not physical, there
are no shipping costs, and they would technically not pass through
customs. Unless the OZ (& NZ) governments figure out some way to impose
various duties & tariffs.
Perhaps they are still trying to grasp that concept.

You are going to have to actually call and see if you can get a
straight answer from the Adobe OZ folks. Remember, since you have not
owned a copy of CS3-CS6 you do not qualify for the bargain sale. Your
only option would be the $20US/month standard for the single module
(which might or might not include Lightroom 5).

In the worst case scenario, since you are a photographer who is not
involved in serious design issues, I have a feeling that you would be
very happy with Lightroom 5 with all it can do for you. I don't know
what that would cost you in NZ, but it would give you much of the
editing and adjustment power of PS at a fraction of the cost.



--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2013-11-16 03:58:02 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:16:47 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-11-16 02:32:19 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:34:42 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
advertising firm.

He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.

He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
2 exceeded the losses from group 1.

They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
of the total Adobe market.

Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
higher once the introductory discount period is over.

The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
$20/month right now.

And in a year's time?

There is no indication that the standard pricing is going to change
after 12 months. There is still a fair amount of ambiguity over what is
going to happen for those CS3-CS6 owners who buy the special $10/month
- 12 month offer (the one which closes at the end of the year). The
wording could lead the buyer to believe that if they fulfill the 12
month contract they would be eligible to renew at their current rate.
Those folks would hope that would be the $10/month. However, the
wording is ambiguous enough that to make that assumption would be shear
conjecture. That bargain deal buyer could just as easily find his
subscription doubled on renewal. So there is no telling whether Adobe
is saying they would be able to continue at the $10/month of is they
will join all others at the going rate of $20/month.

And in Australasia?

For that you are going to have to make your inquiries of Adobe OZ. That
is unless Adobe HQ in USA is controlling all CC distribution.

Outsiders can't easily tell without knowledge of update and renewal
figures but my
friends feeling was that Adobe would end up making more money per
licensee out of their cloud software.

Yup! because there were/are users of CS3 who had no intention of
upgrading to CS4, CS5, or CS6 for $200 a step, now they can jump to PS
CC and get LR5 at what amounts to a bargain, and Adobe gets a
subscriber who might have vowed never to sent them another cent.

Yep.

He also said he suspected that Adobe prices would tend to squeeze out
the amateur photographer (particularly in those parts of the world
where Adobe prices are higher than the US). As has already been
suggested here, he thought that this would leave room for others to
fill the void being left behind by Adobe.

Actually Adobe has made the Photoshop/Lightroom combo more affordable,
or attainable for that class of photographer than ever before. Now
instead of having to find $600-$900 US for PS & another $150 for LR.
all they have to come up with is $20/month or whatever the 1 year
ticket costs. If they have already got a DSLR + lenses, or any of the
cameras in a similar price range, and the necessary computer, they can
easily afford the rent on the Adobe products.

I'm puzzled about the Australian price. Every time I look it's
different. Right now its low enough to convert me at the same price as
you have just quoted me above.

They might be promoting the CC promotion package. The other thing to
consider as far as Adobe OZ goes the CC software is not physical, there
are no shipping costs, and they would technically not pass through
customs. Unless the OZ (& NZ) governments figure out some way to impose
various duties & tariffs.
Perhaps they are still trying to grasp that concept.

You are going to have to actually call and see if you can get a
straight answer from the Adobe OZ folks. Remember, since you have not
owned a copy of CS3-CS6 you do not qualify for the bargain sale. Your
only option would be the $20US/month standard for the single module
(which might or might not include Lightroom 5).

In the worst case scenario, since you are a photographer who is not
involved in serious design issues, I have a feeling that you would be
very happy with Lightroom 5 with all it can do for you. I don't know
what that would cost you in NZ, but it would give you much of the
editing and adjustment power of PS at a fraction of the cost.

If I recall correctly, Eric objected to using Elements because it does
not allow one to work in Lab Mode. That's not a feature of Lightroom,
either.

If he is going to forego Lab Mode, he might as well use Elements. It's
less than Lightroom and has sufficient editing tools.

He's made no mention of needing/wanting photo inventory control and
the keyword feature, and that's the only significant advantage LR has
over Elements, and Elements has some tools not found in LR.

....and LR has many features not found in Elements including the ACR8
engine and a very logical and smooth workflow.

Again, we are faced with opinions and personal preferences. Personally
I have discovered a need for Lab mode (yet), for now I have all I need
in RGB.

I have become quite comfortable working with LR and I can get 90% of
what I need done with it. I know PSE is up to PSE11 now, but I have a
copy of PSE9 and while one can certainly get most of what can be done
in PS done in PSE, I am not particularly comfortable using the PSE UI.
It is different enough from PS that I would only use it out of
desperation. Also the crippled version of ACR found in PSE is not the
same as ACR8 found in PS CC or LR5.
For the Mac owner (that is the position I have to take here) that if
pushed, I believe I would chose the Mac app, "Pixelmator" over PSE. For
$30 it is a bargain, unfortunately, not available for Windows.
http://www.pixelmator.com

I cannot say which would be best for a Windows machine as an
alternative to Photoshop and/or Lightroom if I had to choose between a
Corel product or PSE. That might be where PSE would get my vote.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2013-11-16 04:40:35 +0000, Savageduck said:

On 2013-11-16 03:58:02 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:16:47 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-11-16 02:32:19 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:34:42 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
advertising firm.

He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.

He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
2 exceeded the losses from group 1.

They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
of the total Adobe market.

Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
higher once the introductory discount period is over.

The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
$20/month right now.

And in a year's time?

There is no indication that the standard pricing is going to change
after 12 months. There is still a fair amount of ambiguity over what is
going to happen for those CS3-CS6 owners who buy the special $10/month
- 12 month offer (the one which closes at the end of the year). The
wording could lead the buyer to believe that if they fulfill the 12
month contract they would be eligible to renew at their current rate.
Those folks would hope that would be the $10/month. However, the
wording is ambiguous enough that to make that assumption would be shear
conjecture. That bargain deal buyer could just as easily find his
subscription doubled on renewal. So there is no telling whether Adobe
is saying they would be able to continue at the $10/month of is they
will join all others at the going rate of $20/month.

And in Australasia?

For that you are going to have to make your inquiries of Adobe OZ. That
is unless Adobe HQ in USA is controlling all CC distribution.

Outsiders can't easily tell without knowledge of update and renewal
figures but my
friends feeling was that Adobe would end up making more money per
licensee out of their cloud software.

Yup! because there were/are users of CS3 who had no intention of
upgrading to CS4, CS5, or CS6 for $200 a step, now they can jump to PS
CC and get LR5 at what amounts to a bargain, and Adobe gets a
subscriber who might have vowed never to sent them another cent.

Yep.

He also said he suspected that Adobe prices would tend to squeeze out
the amateur photographer (particularly in those parts of the world
where Adobe prices are higher than the US). As has already been
suggested here, he thought that this would leave room for others to
fill the void being left behind by Adobe.

Actually Adobe has made the Photoshop/Lightroom combo more affordable,
or attainable for that class of photographer than ever before. Now
instead of having to find $600-$900 US for PS & another $150 for LR.
all they have to come up with is $20/month or whatever the 1 year
ticket costs. If they have already got a DSLR + lenses, or any of the
cameras in a similar price range, and the necessary computer, they can
easily afford the rent on the Adobe products.

I'm puzzled about the Australian price. Every time I look it's
different. Right now its low enough to convert me at the same price as
you have just quoted me above.

They might be promoting the CC promotion package. The other thing to
consider as far as Adobe OZ goes the CC software is not physical, there
are no shipping costs, and they would technically not pass through
customs. Unless the OZ (& NZ) governments figure out some way to impose
various duties & tariffs.
Perhaps they are still trying to grasp that concept.

You are going to have to actually call and see if you can get a
straight answer from the Adobe OZ folks. Remember, since you have not
owned a copy of CS3-CS6 you do not qualify for the bargain sale. Your
only option would be the $20US/month standard for the single module
(which might or might not include Lightroom 5).

In the worst case scenario, since you are a photographer who is not
involved in serious design issues, I have a feeling that you would be
very happy with Lightroom 5 with all it can do for you. I don't know
what that would cost you in NZ, but it would give you much of the
editing and adjustment power of PS at a fraction of the cost.

If I recall correctly, Eric objected to using Elements because it does
not allow one to work in Lab Mode. That's not a feature of Lightroom,
either.

If he is going to forego Lab Mode, he might as well use Elements. It's
less than Lightroom and has sufficient editing tools.

He's made no mention of needing/wanting photo inventory control and
the keyword feature, and that's the only significant advantage LR has
over Elements, and Elements has some tools not found in LR.

...and LR has many features not found in Elements including the ACR8
engine and a very logical and smooth workflow.

Again, we are faced with opinions and personal preferences. Personally
I have discovered a need for Lab mode (yet), for now I have all I need
in RGB.

I have become quite comfortable working with LR and I can get 90% of
what I need done with it. I know PSE is up to PSE11 now, but I have a
copy of PSE9 and while one can certainly get most of what can be done
in PS done in PSE, I am not particularly comfortable using the PSE UI.
It is different enough from PS that I would only use it out of
desperation. Also the crippled version of ACR found in PSE is not the
same as ACR8 found in PS CC or LR5.
For the Mac owner (that is the position I have to take here) that if
pushed, I believe I would chose the Mac app, "Pixelmator" over PSE. For
$30 it is a bargain, unfortunately, not available for Windows.
http://www.pixelmator.com

I cannot say which would be best for a Windows machine as an
alternative to Photoshop and/or Lightroom if I had to choose between a
Corel product or PSE. That might be where PSE would get my vote.

Also, if Eric does decide to go with the CC program he should have LR
in that package and the PS-LR integration is seamless and symbiotic
giving him all the tools he would need.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:16:47 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2013-11-16 02:32:19 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
:
: On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:34:42 -0800, Savageduck
: wrote:
:
: On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
:
: A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
: background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
: advertising firm.
:
: He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
: graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
: use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
: there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
: for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
: He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.
:
: He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
: caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
: to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
: 2 exceeded the losses from group 1.
:
: They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
: graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
: the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
: of the total Adobe market.
:
: Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
: prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
: higher once the introductory discount period is over.
:
: The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
: CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
: $20/month right now.
:
: And in a year's time?
:
: There is no indication that the standard pricing is going to change
: after 12 months. There is still a fair amount of ambiguity over what is
: going to happen for those CS3-CS6 owners who buy the special $10/month
: - 12 month offer (the one which closes at the end of the year). The
: wording could lead the buyer to believe that if they fulfill the 12
: month contract they would be eligible to renew at their current rate.
: Those folks would hope that would be the $10/month. However, the
: wording is ambiguous enough that to make that assumption would be shear
: conjecture. That bargain deal buyer could just as easily find his
: subscription doubled on renewal. So there is no telling whether Adobe
: is saying they would be able to continue at the $10/month of is they
: will join all others at the going rate of $20/month.

Is there any concept of buying a longer-term prepaid subscription to lock in
the lower price? It might be un-Adobic thing to offer, but it would resolve
the ambiguity.

Bob

On 11/16/2013 9:26 AM, Robert Coe wrote:
On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:16:47 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2013-11-16 02:32:19 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
:
: On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:34:42 -0800, Savageduck
: wrote:
:
: On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
:
: A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
: background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
: advertising firm.
:
: He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
: graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
: use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
: there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
: for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
: He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.
:
: He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
: caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
: to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
: 2 exceeded the losses from group 1.
:
: They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
: graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
: the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
: of the total Adobe market.
:
: Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
: prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
: higher once the introductory discount period is over.
:
: The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
: CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
: $20/month right now.
:
: And in a year's time?
:
: There is no indication that the standard pricing is going to change
: after 12 months. There is still a fair amount of ambiguity over what is
: going to happen for those CS3-CS6 owners who buy the special $10/month
: - 12 month offer (the one which closes at the end of the year). The
: wording could lead the buyer to believe that if they fulfill the 12
: month contract they would be eligible to renew at their current rate.
: Those folks would hope that would be the $10/month. However, the
: wording is ambiguous enough that to make that assumption would be shear
: conjecture. That bargain deal buyer could just as easily find his
: subscription doubled on renewal. So there is no telling whether Adobe
: is saying they would be able to continue at the $10/month of is they
: will join all others at the going rate of $20/month.

Is there any concept of buying a longer-term prepaid subscription to lock in
the lower price? It might be un-Adobic thing to offer, but it would resolve
the ambiguity.

Bob


I asked Adobe that question,. The person I spoke with did not know the
answer. I anticipate a return call.

--
PeterN

On 2013-11-16 14:26:30 +0000, Robert Coe said:

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 19:16:47 -0800, Savageduck
wrote:
: On 2013-11-16 02:32:19 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
:
: On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:34:42 -0800, Savageduck
: wrote:
:
: On 2013-11-15 23:33:21 +0000, Eric Stevens said:
:
: A few weeks ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy whose
: background was in marketing and who had recently retired from an
: advertising firm.
:
: He pointed out that Adobe have two classes of customers for their
: graphics products. There are the ordinary mortals like most of us who
: use Paintshop etc because we want to. Call these group 1. And then
: there are the people who earn their money in the field and for whom,
: for various reasons, there is no real alternative. Call them group 2.
: He said that for practical purposes this second group are locked in.
:
: He then made the point that although if Adobe raised their prices they
: caused a number of group 1 to drop out, virtually all of group 2 had
: to stay in. Basically Adobe were happy as long as the gains from group
: 2 exceeded the losses from group 1.
:
: They already do, and that is globally. There are Creative Cloud
: graphics & design professionals everywhere and they use all parts of
: the suite. Photography, both amateur & professional is but a small part
: of the total Adobe market.
:
: Neither of us knew whether or not Adobe had effectively raised their
: prices but my friend suspects that the prices will be effectively
: higher once the introductory discount period is over.
:
: The introductory price of $10 US/month is for current owners of
: CS3-CS6. Newcomers to Photoshop CC (single module) are looking at
: $20/month right now.
:
: And in a year's time?
:
: There is no indication that the standard pricing is going to change
: after 12 months. There is still a fair amount of ambiguity over what is
: going to happen for those CS3-CS6 owners who buy the special $10/month
: - 12 month offer (the one which closes at the end of the year). The
: wording could lead the buyer to believe that if they fulfill the 12
: month contract they would be eligible to renew at their current rate.
: Those folks would hope that would be the $10/month. However, the
: wording is ambiguous enough that to make that assumption would be shear
: conjecture. That bargain deal buyer could just as easily find his
: subscription doubled on renewal. So there is no telling whether Adobe
: is saying they would be able to continue at the $10/month of is they
: will join all others at the going rate of $20/month.

Is there any concept of buying a longer-term prepaid subscription to lock in
the lower price? It might be un-Adobic thing to offer, but it would resolve
the ambiguity.

Bob

Unfortunately no. I would love to have a lifetime $10/month
subscription, but right now the one this which is no ambiguous is the
12 month term of the rental contract and the offer for renewal at the
"current rate" what is ambiguous for the purchasers of the promotion
deal for CS3-CS6 owners is just what the term "current rate" implies,
the "current promotional rate" or the "current standard rate". This
gives this qualifying group a great 12 month promotional deal with the
question of a possible doubling of their subscription at renewal, or
the reward for loyal customers continuing.
Personally the deal for 12 months is too good for any
Photoshop/Lightroom user to turn down. Whatever happens they will still
have their older copy of CS which qualifies them for the deal. If they
are rewarded for their loyalty with a $10/month renewal it becomes a
win-win situation for both parties as emotionally Adobe had lost them
as customers, and the promotion would have brought them back into the
tent.

Remember this promotion targets that group of Photoshop users who have
vowed that they prefer to own rather than rent, and they have bought
their last Photoshop update, I was one of them. PeteN was one, he has
been looking for something to replace Photoshop, Alan Browne has
declared that he has bought his las Photoshop upgrade. When I bought my
CS6 upgrade I did so believing that would be the end of the Photoshop
upgrade path for me. Each of my upgrades CS3-CS4-CS5-CS6 cost me $200
and I was not going to spend that ever again. With this promotion they
have me back on the hook for $120 for at least another 12 months, for a
taste of PS CC, a perpetual upgrade. My typical upgrade spending was a
$200 upgrade every 18-30 months, so $120/year would be well within that.

I bought the $10/month 12 month promotion last week and so far I am
very happy. If they allow me to renew next year at $10 they have me
hooked. If not I still have CS6 and I will probably buy the LR5 upgrade
to my LR4. I really like LR5 and all it has to offer.


--
Regards,

Savageduck