spot metering help needed

I am an advanced amateur, and I want to really understand spot metering
practically. I've read the "Handheld Metering Guide" and I don't doubt
that the authors can meter well, but they have shown they can't instruct
well. Information is neither too advanced or too simple, not enough
detail and little more than what a sales brochure would give, might be
helpful in deciding which type of meter to buy but lacking otherwise and
if you really want to know how i feel about the book : )

Has anyone read a really good book on metering with great practical
tips? Where to point the spot etc. I know that sounds like a simple
question but lets say you are in a meadow in autumn, what element is
likely to most closely resemble 18% gray.Is that the best approcah to
find a 18% grey in the scene and meter that? Or do I determine what will
be grey if I can't control developing and printing. Does the Zone system
have use for the digital or roll film photographer?

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:39:19 -0500, w wrote:

I know that sounds like a simple
question but lets say you are in a meadow in autumn, what element is
likely to most closely resemble 18% gray.Is that the best approcah to
find a 18% grey in the scene and meter that?

Using a spot meter is an art. The photographer has to decide on what
to meter and what to meter depends on the final result that the
photographer is aiming for.

So the question really is... when looking at that meadow, which part
do YOU want to be a midtone and what parts do you want to be
highlights and shadows.

Does the Zone system apply to roll film? Yes, but mostly because
knowing what the Zone system is helps the photographer better compose
his images.


-- JC

w wrote in message ...
I am an advanced amateur, and I want to really understand spot metering
practically.


What you need to understand is how to achieve correct exposure. The
meter is only a tool to that end. What puzzles you?

On 4 Dec 2003 13:42:33 -0800, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

w wrote in message ...
I am an advanced amateur, and I want to really understand spot metering
practically.


What you need to understand is how to achieve correct exposure. The
meter is only a tool to that end. What puzzles you?

Yes Mike, that's the whole motivation of the post. I know the meter is
a tool to aid in obtaining the perfect exposure for me, it is afterall
entirely subjective. What I am looking for are some shortcuts to many
years of trial and error. I mean, thank god Ansel Adams wrote about
his methods and discoveries as it has helped many of us improve our
ability to make shots that are pleasing without having to go through
the years of study and discovery that he did.
Have you read or are you aware of an expert in metering, that is other
than dear Ansel, who has written a succinct and illustrative book
about practical spot metering. A book that gives really useful tips as
to what one might point that 2 degree spot at. Perhaps there are some
good tips for a person who comes from center weighted average metering
or the mystery of matrix surrender to proactive tips on what and
where and why to point.
For example, traditional reversal photography would suggest we meter
the shadows and then place them where we want them in the print, a
shaded tree trunk ; where does it go zone 3? Zone 4? Just how deep is
a deep shadow?When photographing a street scene, how close is worn
pavement to 18%grey, is that a good zone V placement? In Portraiture
should one meter the shadows on a face or the highlights ? If cross
processing should we meter for shadows? Do we approach digital
photography as we would positives and meter for the highlights? If so
how much detail are we able to pull from the deep shadows. That's
basically what I am looking for, ideas and a methodology for light
metering without reference (or too much refernce) to controlled
processing as I rarely do my own developing.
Thanx.

I am an advanced amateur, and I want to really understand spot metering
practically. I've read the "Handheld Metering Guide" and I don't doubt
that the authors can meter well, but they have shown they can't instruct
well. Information is neither too advanced or too simple, not enough
detail and little more than what a sales brochure would give, might be
helpful in deciding which type of meter to buy but lacking otherwise and
if you really want to know how i feel about the book : )

Has anyone read a really good book on metering with great practical
tips? Where to point the spot etc. I know that sounds like a simple
question but lets say you are in a meadow in autumn, what element is
likely to most closely resemble 18% gray.Is that the best approcah to
find a 18% grey in the scene and meter that? Or do I determine what will
be grey if I can't control developing and printing. Does the Zone system
have use for the digital or roll film photographer?


a spot meter is really specialized, you have to know your system and do
things with CONSISTENCY.

A gray card can be bought at most camera stores. its really 50% but it
reflects 18%

whatever you point the meter at, it suggests an exposure that will render
that medium gray, that is assuming you can done exposures tests to determine
what your actual working ISO is, after all your camera shutter and lens
could vary from what is stamped on the barrel, your darkroom methods could
vary, or your labs.

So with tests, first going from one end to the other to find your minimum
exposure to get a maximum black, that determines YOUR ISO with that bod and
lens, that film and processing, that lighting.

zone system is a method of 'placing' your highlight and shadow values by
manipulating your exposure and development times. You have something in
the sun and you want detail in both the bright and shadow side, you want
your highlights to be a step down from pure white and your shadow a step or
two up from black, you know you can over expose a bit to build up detail in
the shadow, and you then under developed to keep the highlights from going
too far.

with roll film, you meter the shadow areas that you would like some detail
in and open up two stops, then in printing you choose a contrast that will
keep both brights and darks in range.

or you can just meter the brights and shadows to see how far apart they are
to decide if you need fill or a reflector.

whodunitinc wrote in message . ..
On 4 Dec 2003 13:42:33 -0800, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

w wrote in message ...
I am an advanced amateur, and I want to really understand spot metering
practically.


What you need to understand is how to achieve correct exposure. The
meter is only a tool to that end. What puzzles you?

Yes Mike, that's the whole motivation of the post. I know the meter is
a tool to aid in obtaining the perfect exposure for me, it is afterall
entirely subjective. What I am looking for are some shortcuts to many
years of trial and error. I mean, thank god Ansel Adams wrote about
his methods and discoveries as it has helped many of us improve our
ability to make shots that are pleasing without having to go through
the years of study and discovery that he did.

Adams is irrelevant to this discussion.

Have you read or are you aware of an expert in metering, that is other
than dear Ansel, who has written a succinct and illustrative book
about practical spot metering. A book that gives really useful tips as
to what one might point that 2 degree spot at.

The problem is not 'what to point the meter at', but 'why do I need to
use this tool'? You're looking at the whole thing backwards. Simply by
bracketing exposures you can cover all reasonably likely exposures
anyway.

All you need to know is that the meter reads whatever is pointed at as
18% grey. That's all there is to it. If you point it at a
dark-coloured area, the reading you get is going to reproduce that
area NOT as 'dark grey' but as medium grey UNLESS you alter the
exposure. If you point it a white snowbank, the reading you get is
going to reproduce that area NOT as 'white' but as medium grey UNLESS
you alter the exposure.

The main uses for spot meters a

1. In metering inaccessible areas that are considerable distances away
(performers on a stage, for instance) especially when the illumination
levels are greatly different from the immediate surroundings and quite
localized (a performmer's face in a spotlight surrounded by blackness,
for instance).

2. In measuring the diffrential between the brightest and darkest
areas of a scene, to verify whether the range can be captured in a
single exposure. This is most critical with color transparency films.

3. In determining lighting ratios in when incident metering is
impractical or inconvenient, as in industrial photography of large
machinery.

In such cases, the meter still reads as though the matter being
metered is 18% grey, so even the reading of performer in the spotlight
must be adjusted based on the estimated reflectivity of the
performer's costume or face. Hardly ever can the meter reading of a
spot meter be used without adjustment based on reflectivity.

On 5 Dec 2003 14:44:25 -0800, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:


The problem is not 'what to point the meter at', but 'why do I need to
use this tool'? You're looking at the whole thing backwards. Simply by
bracketing exposures you can cover all reasonably likely exposures
anyway.


Now THAT and all that you posted below it, I fully agree with. Its a
good explanation.

Its also the reason that after a while the poster will find that using
a spot meter with a 35mm will be unnecessary. Because after a while he
will begin to understand the relationships in a scene just by
visualizing it in his mind, and bracketing to make sure. A roll of
35mm is cheap and the shots processed (obviously) in bulk. Not true
with large format films... like Adams used.


-- JC

J C wrote in message . ..
On 5 Dec 2003 14:44:25 -0800, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:


The problem is not 'what to point the meter at', but 'why do I need to
use this tool'? You're looking at the whole thing backwards. Simply by
bracketing exposures you can cover all reasonably likely exposures
anyway.


Now THAT and all that you posted below it, I fully agree with. Its a
good explanation.

Its also the reason that after a while the poster will find that using
a spot meter with a 35mm will be unnecessary. Because after a while he
will begin to understand the relationships in a scene just by
visualizing it in his mind, and bracketing to make sure.


Precisely.

On 6 Dec 2003 17:24:16 -0800, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:

J C wrote in message . ..
On 5 Dec 2003 14:44:25 -0800, (Michael
Scarpitti) wrote:


The problem is not 'what to point the meter at', but 'why do I need to
use this tool'? You're looking at the whole thing backwards. Simply by
bracketing exposures you can cover all reasonably likely exposures
anyway.


Now THAT and all that you posted below it, I fully agree with. Its a
good explanation.

Its also the reason that after a while the poster will find that using
a spot meter with a 35mm will be unnecessary. Because after a while he
will begin to understand the relationships in a scene just by
visualizing it in his mind, and bracketing to make sure.


Precisely.
Bracketing, to be sure, is sometimes an option, but it seems moke like
admitting I am not sure of whats happening, so to be safe, lets shoot
3 or 5 shots and that way I've covered all the bases. Sure film can be
considered cheap but gosh if you bracket lots you'll be using minimal
3 times more than you might normally use and if you are doing
panoramas consisting of 6 frames, bracketing becomes extremely
difficult to manage in post. As regard spot metering not applicable to
35mm photography, I work in motion picture and I've yet to meet a DP
who doesn't use a spotmeter. They are reecording on 35mm film and the
image size is even smaller than a 35 mm still. Clearly bracketing is
not an option in motion pictures and my point is I that I know the
handheld meter if used well can help considerably more than a built in
average meter, or center weighted and if you want to be in control
and be cognitive of the process , matrix metering is best not used.
Sure there are times, particular in candids and sports where
deliberate metering would cause you to loose the shot and matrix meter
is preferred, but for posed shots or landscape, where you have the
luxury of metering a scene in detail, why not use it and know exactly
why you shot looks the way it does as opposed to hoping one of the
frames will be right.. Yes I am well capable of producing 'acceptable
shots 90% of the time, I want 100% and to know how to use the meter
effectively.
Adam's book "The Negative" has wonderful instruction, but as you
state he used large format and his lessons are geared primarily for
that but that's not to say that many of his methods are not applicable
to all of photography including digital.
You seem to think that a spotmeter is superfluous and it may well be
for you. I on the other hand believe that it is capable of helping me
meter with far more precision than my camera's built in meters and
with a good understand, to be achieve through good instruction coupled
with experience I will get the satifaction of making the exposures I
want, not haphazrdly through bracketing.
My question remains this; can someone recommend a good book on
practical spot metering? I am not seeking opinions on the validity of
spotmetering.

Exactly.... If you know your craft andthe equipment there is no need to
bracket



In article , whodunitinc
writes:

Bracketing, to be sure, is sometimes an option, but it seems moke like
admitting I am not sure of whats happening, so to be safe, lets shoot
3 or 5 shots and that way I've covered all the bases. Sure film can be
considered cheap but gosh if you bracket lots you'll be using minimal
3 times more than you might normally use and if you are doing
panoramas consisting of 6 frames, bracketing becomes extremely
difficult to manage in post. As regard spot metering not applicable to
35mm photography, I work in motion picture and I've yet to meet a DP
who doesn't use a spotmeter. They are reecording on 35mm film and the
image size is even smaller than a 35 mm still. Clearly bracketing is
not an option in motion pictures and my point is I that I know the
handheld meter if used well can help considerably more than a built in
average meter


Mike Babcock
Mike's Photo