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Got to admit; when Windows fails, it does so spectacularly.



 
 
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  #71  
Old October 31st 18, 11:37 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
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Posts: 24,165
Default Got to admit; when Windows fails, it does so spectacularly.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Everything is an XXXXXX problem if you don't know the rules by which
XXXXXX operates.


You shouldn't have to that is the point.


Do you play chess? bridge? cricket? Do you drive a car on the roads?

You will find that each of those is a problem unless you know the
rules by which they work.


one does *not* need to know how to build or repair cars to drive one to
the store.
  #72  
Old October 31st 18, 11:54 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
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Posts: 13,611
Default Capture One 11 Pro: was - Got to admit; when Windows fails, it does so spectacularly.

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:15:01 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Neil
wrote:

There were many image editing programs in those days, but I eventually
preferred Aldus PhotoStyler because of its ability to create and save
custom tools. Adobe bought Aldus, and shut down PhotoStyler to sell
Photoshop, which was quite inferior to it. So, I've used Photoshop since
its release and haven't seen anything since version 5 or so that brought
something useful to my table.

Do you mean Photoshop 5.0 (version 5.0), or Photoshop CS5 (version 12.0)?

Version 5.0. The only reason I upgraded beyond that was for OS
compatibility. It does little for my productivity to have menus shifted
around or the keyboard commands changed.

a *lot* has changed since version 5, *far* more than shifting menus and
changing keyboard commands (which can be set to whatever you want
anyway).

If you could read, you'd know that I have newer versions but don't find
that their features increase my productivity, the accuracy of my work,
or any other aspect critical to me. YMMV. The shifting menus and
changing keyboard commands simply waste my time, and I don't care for
that, either.


keyboard shortcuts can be set to whatever you want and i can't think of
which menu options shifted to where it would confuse someone. if
anything, it's *more* logical now than it used to be, and if you use
the keyboard shortcuts, the menu locations are irrelevant.

that tells me you don't know how to use photoshop to its fullest
potential (or even part of its potential), which is not surprising
given what else you've said. you like doing things the hard way,
resistant to change.


Neil is using Photoshop to process images to his taste. He found out
how to use the basic tool to do that years ago and has found no need
to use the more recent bells and whistles. It follows that learning
how to use photoshop to its fullest potential would require Neill
doing things with images that he has no interest in doing.

Neill is using Photoshop to produce images to his taste. He is not
using Photoshop as an end in itself.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #73  
Old November 1st 18, 12:11 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Ken Hart[_4_]
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Posts: 569
Default Got to admit; when Windows fails, it does so spectacularly.

On 10/31/18 6:25 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:

snip

That's not quite what I want to do. If I had three computers I would
want any computer to be able to share with the other two.

I have fifteen computers here, and all can access each other's files. I
go into file manager, connect to server via SSH, enter the LAN IP
address and target directory of the computer I want to access, respond
to the prompt with the "target" computer's password, and I'm in. (After
the first time, the password manager takes over with the password.)

But then, all my computers are running Linux.


--
Ken Hart

  #74  
Old November 1st 18, 12:14 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Ken Hart[_4_]
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Posts: 569
Default Got to admit; when Windows fails, it does so spectacularly.

On 10/31/18 6:37 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Everything is an XXXXXX problem if you don't know the rules by which
XXXXXX operates.

You shouldn't have to that is the point.


Do you play chess? bridge? cricket? Do you drive a car on the roads?

You will find that each of those is a problem unless you know the
rules by which they work.


one does *not* need to know how to build or repair cars to drive one to
the store.

But when the car starts going "wonka wonka wonka" and pulling to the
left, it's helpful to know how to change a tire.


--
Ken Hart

  #75  
Old November 1st 18, 12:59 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Tony Cooper[_2_]
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Posts: 188
Default Capture One 11 Pro: was - Got to admit; when Windows fails, it does so spectacularly.

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:07:03 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On Oct 31, 2018, Tony Cooper wrote
(in ):

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:18:58 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

It is beginning to sound as if you simplified your needs, and the degree of
efficiency you are content with as a rationalization for not exploring
current, or future software developments.


I find this discussion rather frustrating.


Of course you do.

Neil has said that the
software he uses produces the results he wants. Why should he be
quizzed, with an undertone of criticism, about why he has not explored
other software fixes?


No undertone of criticism, perhaps one of miscommunication.


That first paragraph above is thinly-veiled criticism. You may not
have intended it to be, but the use of "are content with" is very
condescending and an implied criticism.

Isn't the objective of post-processing to get the taken photograph to
be right in the eye of the photographer?


...and there are tools which constantly improve to make that easier to do. If
I recall correctly you are currently an Adobe CC subscriber, and as such I am
sure that you might have discovered a new feature, or tool which has helped
you.

As nohelp has stated so many times, this is not about me. I take as
much pleasure in learning about and employing the tools as I do with
the result. Evidently, does not share that feeling, and there's
nothing wrong with that.


Neil is just as much at fault here as anyone else.


Yup!

If he's read
r.p.d. in the past, he should know that what pleases him is not going
to please others when they do it differently, and he should stfu. He's
not going to convince anyone that he likes the results he gets the way
he does it.


...and yet nobody here has any idea of what results Neil likes, or even which
digital camera he shoots.


May I remind you that the nose that gets poked into almost every
thread in this newsgroup belongs to someone who never shows his
results or states what camera he uses? That certainly doesn't stop
him from telling everyone else they're doing it wrong. He is hardly
an example that better methods result in better results because we
don't know if he ends up with anything anyone would call "better".

It's not like he's posted images that don't measure up or asked how he
can improve doing what he's doing.


So true.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #76  
Old November 1st 18, 02:53 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Neil[_9_]
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Posts: 521
Default Capture One 11 Pro: was - Got to admit; when Windows fails, itdoes so spectacularly.

On 10/31/2018 3:18 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On Oct 31, 2018, Neil wrote

What Photoshop CC is capable of today is very different to what you had
in PS 5.0.

Not in terms of what I need or how efficiently I can get what I need done.


It is beginning to sound as if you simplified your needs, and the degree of
efficiency you are content with as a rationalization for not exploring
current, or future software developments.

Since you have no basis for understanding either the complexity of my
needs or what I have done to accommodate them over the decades, I don't
see why you think your comment has any rational basis at all. You would
have to dismiss many of the things I've already presented in this topic
and others: professional lithographic production for over 50 years
(which you have no experience with); video production (which you have no
experience with); digital image editing since the '70s; designing and
building graphics cards for different platforms which necessarily
includes writing the programs for them; using software that predated
Photoshop; using Photoshop since its introduction; and more. I am quite
capable of assessing the usefulness of software to meet my needs and not
waste my time.

I thought I could have a reasonable discussion with you, Duck.
Apparently, I was wrong.

Bye.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #77  
Old November 1st 18, 03:08 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Neil[_9_]
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Posts: 521
Default Capture One 11 Pro: was - Got to admit; when Windows fails, itdoes so spectacularly.

On 10/31/2018 4:32 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:18:58 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On Oct 31, 2018, Neil wrote
(in article ):

On 10/31/2018 12:51 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On 2018-10-31 15:33:04 +0000, Neil said:

On 10/30/2018 6:26 PM, Savageduck wrote:

Do you mean Photoshop 5.0 (version 5.0), or Photoshop CS5 (version
12.0)?
Version 5.0. The only reason I upgraded beyond that was for OS
compatibility. It does little for my productivity to have menus
shifted around or the keyboard commands changed.

Version 5.0 is over 20 years old and the World has moved under it, that
includes finding any currently supported OS, Mac, or Windows.
If you re-read what I wrote, above, it clearly states that I'm not still
running version 5.0.


OK! So which version of Photoshop do you use, or which was the last version
you actually used?


What Photoshop CC is capable of today is very different to what you had
in PS 5.0.
Not in terms of what I need or how efficiently I can get what I need done.


It is beginning to sound as if you simplified your needs, and the degree of
efficiency you are content with as a rationalization for not exploring
current, or future software developments.


I find this discussion rather frustrating. Neil has said that the
software he uses produces the results he wants. Why should he be
quizzed, with an undertone of criticism, about why he has not explored
other software fixes?

Isn't the objective of post-processing to get the taken photograph to
be right in the eye of the photographer?

Neil is just as much at fault here as anyone else. If he's read
r.p.d. in the past, he should know that what pleases him is not going
to please others when they do it differently, and he should stfu. He's
not going to convince anyone that he likes the results he gets the way
he does it.

It's not like he's posted images that don't measure up or asked how he
can improve doing what he's doing.

You raise some good points, Tony. However, I don't have an issue with
those who work differently than I. It's their prerogative to do whatever
they wish for whatever reason. I have no need to convince those who
don't have a frame of reference to understand what I present. Though
it's rare, there have been some here with the requisite background that
*did* "get it".

I also don't critique the images that people post, and I don't post my
own images for comment, as it is not something that I have a need or
desire to do. What "validates" my images is solely whether my clients
publish and distribute them and pay my bills. And, they've done so for
over 40 years.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #78  
Old November 1st 18, 03:45 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Neil[_9_]
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Posts: 521
Default Capture One 11 Pro: was - Got to admit; when Windows fails, itdoes so spectacularly.

On 10/31/2018 6:54 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:15:01 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Neil
wrote:

There were many image editing programs in those days, but I eventually
preferred Aldus PhotoStyler because of its ability to create and save
custom tools. Adobe bought Aldus, and shut down PhotoStyler to sell
Photoshop, which was quite inferior to it. So, I've used Photoshop since
its release and haven't seen anything since version 5 or so that brought
something useful to my table.

Do you mean Photoshop 5.0 (version 5.0), or Photoshop CS5 (version 12.0)?

Version 5.0. The only reason I upgraded beyond that was for OS
compatibility. It does little for my productivity to have menus shifted
around or the keyboard commands changed.

a *lot* has changed since version 5, *far* more than shifting menus and
changing keyboard commands (which can be set to whatever you want
anyway).

If you could read, you'd know that I have newer versions but don't find
that their features increase my productivity, the accuracy of my work,
or any other aspect critical to me. YMMV. The shifting menus and
changing keyboard commands simply waste my time, and I don't care for
that, either.


keyboard shortcuts can be set to whatever you want and i can't think of
which menu options shifted to where it would confuse someone. if
anything, it's *more* logical now than it used to be, and if you use
the keyboard shortcuts, the menu locations are irrelevant.

that tells me you don't know how to use photoshop to its fullest
potential (or even part of its potential), which is not surprising
given what else you've said. you like doing things the hard way,
resistant to change.


Neil is using Photoshop to process images to his taste. He found out
how to use the basic tool to do that years ago and has found no need
to use the more recent bells and whistles. It follows that learning
how to use photoshop to its fullest potential would require Neill
doing things with images that he has no interest in doing.

Neill is using Photoshop to produce images to his taste. He is not
using Photoshop as an end in itself.

First, thanks for your understanding. It's the closest anyone in this
discussion has come to getting why I prefer to work the way I do.

I don't care for such things as shifting menus, reprogramming keyboard
commands, and "push button" effects, and per usual, a few might
understand it from the comments, below.

1) When an updated version of an app is released, an amount of time is
spent learning it to understand the changes. I deduct that time from my
overall productivity at the same rate that I charge for work, and it is
not an insignificant cost.

2) Before reprogramming keyboard commands, one has to determine that it
won't interfere with the operation of the updated app. As above, it is a
cost deducted from my profit. It's usually cheaper to use the "new" key
command structure, which takes time to learn and is therefore more costly.

3) My images that I use in business (which are the minority of images in
a publication) are those that don't require a lot of work. Those that
take some complex editing can't be corrected "globally", as is what
happens with plug-ins and push-button effects. I can fix them faster
manually than fiddling about with those "features".

4) These days, most of the images that I receive from others for
publication are quite good, as the professional photographers that
submit them are acclimated to digital photography and have the skills to
create and deliver them to my specs, so I rarely have to do much with them.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #79  
Old November 1st 18, 06:24 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Capture One 11 Pro: was - Got to admit; when Windows fails, it does so spectacularly.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Version 5.0. The only reason I upgraded beyond that was for OS
compatibility. It does little for my productivity to have menus shifted
around or the keyboard commands changed.

a *lot* has changed since version 5, *far* more than shifting menus and
changing keyboard commands (which can be set to whatever you want
anyway).

If you could read, you'd know that I have newer versions but don't find
that their features increase my productivity, the accuracy of my work,
or any other aspect critical to me. YMMV. The shifting menus and
changing keyboard commands simply waste my time, and I don't care for
that, either.


keyboard shortcuts can be set to whatever you want and i can't think of
which menu options shifted to where it would confuse someone. if
anything, it's *more* logical now than it used to be, and if you use
the keyboard shortcuts, the menu locations are irrelevant.

that tells me you don't know how to use photoshop to its fullest
potential (or even part of its potential), which is not surprising
given what else you've said. you like doing things the hard way,
resistant to change.


Neil is using Photoshop to process images to his taste. He found out
how to use the basic tool to do that years ago and has found no need
to use the more recent bells and whistles. It follows that learning
how to use photoshop to its fullest potential would require Neill
doing things with images that he has no interest in doing.


thereby confirming what i said.

Neill is using Photoshop to produce images to his taste. He is not
using Photoshop as an end in itself.


just like other photoshop users.
  #80  
Old November 1st 18, 06:24 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Capture One 11 Pro: was - Got to admit; when Windows fails, it does so spectacularly.

In article , Neil
wrote:


Neil is using Photoshop to process images to his taste. He found out
how to use the basic tool to do that years ago and has found no need
to use the more recent bells and whistles. It follows that learning
how to use photoshop to its fullest potential would require Neill
doing things with images that he has no interest in doing.

Neill is using Photoshop to produce images to his taste. He is not
using Photoshop as an end in itself.

First, thanks for your understanding. It's the closest anyone in this
discussion has come to getting why I prefer to work the way I do.

I don't care for such things as shifting menus, reprogramming keyboard
commands, and "push button" effects, and per usual, a few might
understand it from the comments, below.

1) When an updated version of an app is released, an amount of time is
spent learning it to understand the changes. I deduct that time from my
overall productivity at the same rate that I charge for work, and it is
not an insignificant cost.


if the changes improve one's productivity, then the amount of time
spent learning is a worthwhile investment (and it's not exactly long
either). if not, you still learned something new, perhaps useful for
some other task. it's always good to learn new things.

2) Before reprogramming keyboard commands, one has to determine that it
won't interfere with the operation of the updated app.


false.

As above, it is a
cost deducted from my profit. It's usually cheaper to use the "new" key
command structure, which takes time to learn and is therefore more costly.


exactly how much time does it take you to learn a new keyboard command?

it shouldn't be more than a few minutes.

3) My images that I use in business (which are the minority of images in
a publication) are those that don't require a lot of work. Those that
take some complex editing can't be corrected "globally", as is what
happens with plug-ins and push-button effects. I can fix them faster
manually than fiddling about with those "features".


wrong. what you're blindly calling plug-ins and push-button effects can
be global or localized. the point is that some of them could increase
your productivity.

4) These days, most of the images that I receive from others for
publication are quite good, as the professional photographers that
submit them are acclimated to digital photography and have the skills to
create and deliver them to my specs, so I rarely have to do much with them.


that's good, but that raises the question, if you rarely have to do
anything, why do they even bother sending them to you?
 




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