Photomatix & HDR

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:22:35 +0100, bugbear
wrote:

tony cooper wrote:
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:43:53 +0100, bugbear
wrote:

tony cooper wrote:
The HDR examples I've seen are, to me, reminiscent of Thomas Kincade's
"art". The gimmick factor outweighs everything else.

That's not a knock on this technique. It's a comment regarding my own
opinion of them. Photographs that do appeal to me are not necessarily
appealing to others.
Well, here's a photo I took to illustrate the lighting
I used to photograph some saw teeth (one of my other hobbies
involves hand tools).

http://galootcentral.com/components/..._top_close.jpg

I make no claims for "Art" in this photo, since its purpose
was purely illustrative.

However, I found HDR techniques by far the most convenient way
to capture it.

And no unnatural colours (depending on your opinion
of my room's wallpaper :-)

BugBear

If that's HDR, it's minimalist enough to not be glaringly so.

But it's not - the DR in the scene is EXTREME, from shadow to light bulb;
but the colours in the final image aren't weird. HDR is NOT about saturated colours, that appears
to be a quirk of PhotoMatix (and perhaps the people who use it)

I am
much more impressed by the Rube Goldberg copy stand.

Heath-Robinson, please ;-)

Heath-Robinson drew mostly in black-and-white.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...binson_WWI.png


--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

"Wayne R." wrote in message
...
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance
wrote (with clarity & insight):

Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
does as what can be done.

These, to me, exemplify expertise in HDR work - something ideal, right
from your mind's eye. It's only with thought that it's clear HDR is
the central tool.

Just like movies where CGI is so sophisticated that you're not even
aware it's there.

In-your-face has its place too, but this subtlety is more appealing to
me.

I've been a long-time fan of models over CGI but, I must admit, the high
quality and more subtle work that's come out over the past few years is
impressive.

--
Charles E Hardwidge

On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:20:05 GMT, "Charles E Hardwidge"
wrote:

"Wayne R." wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance
wrote (with clarity & insight):

Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
does as what can be done.

These, to me, exemplify expertise in HDR work - something ideal, right
from your mind's eye. It's only with thought that it's clear HDR is
the central tool.

Just like movies where CGI is so sophisticated that you're not even
aware it's there.

In-your-face has its place too, but this subtlety is more appealing to
me.

I've been a long-time fan of models over CGI but, I must admit, the high
quality and more subtle work that's come out over the past few years is
impressive.

The best example I can think of was Gollum, in the Lord of the Rings.



Eric Stevens

"Eric Stevens" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:20:05 GMT, "Charles E Hardwidge"
wrote:

"Wayne R." wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Vance
wrote (with clarity & insight):

Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
does as what can be done.

These, to me, exemplify expertise in HDR work - something ideal, right
from your mind's eye. It's only with thought that it's clear HDR is
the central tool.

Just like movies where CGI is so sophisticated that you're not even
aware it's there.

In-your-face has its place too, but this subtlety is more appealing to
me.

I've been a long-time fan of models over CGI but, I must admit, the high
quality and more subtle work that's come out over the past few years is
impressive.

The best example I can think of was Gollum, in the Lord of the Rings.

That was certainly an advance in character rendering and animation but I was
thinking more of something like, say, Gladiator or 2001: A Space Odyssey
versus Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.

Personally, I prefer the 1978 animated version of LotR. While this is
getting massively orthogonal to the topic, the Japanese pioneered use of
camera style effects in animation such as depth of field and perspective.

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0077869/

--
Charles E Hardwidge

"Vance" wrote in message
...
As others have commented, the image is a little too much regarding
contrast and saturation for a 'natural' look. For some images that
can be very okay, but it's not really that good for landscapes and
other images where people have a certain expectation of the colors and
tonalities based on their own experience. However, if you like the
effect and it's what you are going for, go for it.

Getting a natural look out of HDR is not easy, or simple. Neither PS,
nor Photomatrix, will give you much more than a base that you then
have to work up controlling contrast and saturation in something like
PS. Comments like 'Photomatrix gives me ...' and 'Photoshop
produces ...' point out part of the problem with many HDR images,
IMHO, which is letting the software do the work and accepting what it
does as what can be done.

I am a long way from being a HDR expert, but I have gotten to the
point where I can take what PS or Photomatrix can give me as a
starting point and come up with something that doesn't scream HDR.
These are a few of my more recent images using HDR as I learn more.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.Le...84309407040322

The dynamic range of the images all equal, or exceed, 11 stops and had
to be aggressively post processed using a lot of local adjustments
that you have to experiment with to discover what adjusments will
bring the image into line. For example, all of the images used areas
copied to another layer, which was equalized in some fashion, and then
blended back. Sometimes those layers had attached adjustment curves,
or were inverted after desaturation and then blended back using one of
the blend modes. The trouble is that I haven't found a real set of
'rules' about what to do. Things that have worked well on one image
that you would think would work well on another, don't always perform
that way.

HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
images with a 'WOW!' factor.



Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?

--
Peter

Vance wrote:
Peter wrote:

HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
images with a 'WOW!' factor.

Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?

If you're refering to the the tall buildings to the right of the
image, it's probably a combination of poor masking on my part and the
fact that the buildings are outlined in lights.

Christmas lights on the Embarcadero Center.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.Le...86755994488866
really nice shot IMO

Anything else is
probably just poor masking. I do a lot of masking because I work
various areas separately using not only the selected area, but often a
luminosity mask within the area that controls any adjustments I am
making based on the tones in the image area I am working.

I don't know how you would totally avoid the outlining, or haloing,

My approach has been to use course soft-edged masks more akin to a
graduated neutral density filter. It's amazing what you can get away
with if the radius is big enough. I got turned off to hdr after not much
experimenting because of the halo effects. The halos I saw were not like
narrow sharpening halos but more like a 50-pixel glow in the sky
around the edge of buildings & trees. I found, if I mask into the
building it works out well - too obvious to have the mask/halo in the sky.

Lightroom has highlight recovery & fill sliders which I use often but
must remember to keep an eye on the results, some conditions will make
hideous halo effects. A safe formula in many cases is drop the exposure,
add fill light & increase contrast. Highlight recovery often fails but
sometimes is fine. LR has a paintbrush adjustment also so you can paint
an area and adjust all those settings for that region.


because of what HDR does in compressing the tonal range. It's an
artifact of the processing. Where it's noticeable, I usually paint it
in and, depending on the area (broad, smooth tones are the easiest),
blend with a little blurring. I have been experimenting with doing a
selection on edges a little wider than normal and working with
correcting those areas, then blending back in. I'm still working on
that and can't say it is always successful. It's iffy.

I find working with no tone curve applied and a somewhat desaturated
image helps a lot. I then bring the final image up to snuff re
contrast and saturation at the end. Another thing I am experimenting
with is not exposing based on some fixed bracketing, but exposing each
frame so that it contibutes to the final look I want. All of this is
still experimental and I can't say it's worth doing, yet.

Vance


--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam

"Vance" wrote in message
...
On Jun 30, 4:31 pm, "Peter" wrote:
"Vance" wrote in message

[Snipped]

HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
images with a 'WOW!' factor.

Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?

--
Peter

If you're refering to the the tall buildings to the right of the
image, it's probably a combination of poor masking on my part and the
fact that the buildings are outlined in lights. Anything else is
probably just poor masking. I do a lot of masking because I work
various areas separately using not only the selected area, but often a
luminosity mask within the area that controls any adjustments I am
making based on the tones in the image area I am working.

I don't know how you would totally avoid the outlining, or haloing,
because of what HDR does in compressing the tonal range. It's an
artifact of the processing. Where it's noticeable, I usually paint it
in and, depending on the area (broad, smooth tones are the easiest),
blend with a little blurring. I have been experimenting with doing a
selection on edges a little wider than normal and working with
correcting those areas, then blending back in. I'm still working on
that and can't say it is always successful. It's iffy.

I find working with no tone curve applied and a somewhat desaturated
image helps a lot. I then bring the final image up to snuff re
contrast and saturation at the end. Another thing I am experimenting
with is not exposing based on some fixed bracketing, but exposing each
frame so that it contibutes to the final look I want. All of this is
still experimental and I can't say it's worth doing, yet.



Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have been playing with the problem and
you have given us some direction.



--
Peter

Vance wrote:
On Jun 30, 7:51 pm, Paul Furman wrote:
Vance wrote:
Peter wrote:
HDR is a lot of fun, can be very useful and can certainly produce some
images with a 'WOW!' factor.
Just a question. I notice in photo three on of the buildings has a white
outline around it. I have had similar issues, though usually the outlines
are black.. There must be a way to avoid this outlining?
If you're refering to the the tall buildings to the right of the
image, it's probably a combination of poor masking on my part and the
fact that the buildings are outlined in lights.
Christmas lights on the Embarcadero Center.http://picasaweb.google.com/Vance.Le...RgCLC8tZO1lp3G...
really nice shot IMO

Anything else is
probably just poor masking. I do a lot of masking because I work
various areas separately using not only the selected area, but often a
luminosity mask within the area that controls any adjustments I am
making based on the tones in the image area I am working.
I don't know how you would totally avoid the outlining, or haloing,
My approach has been to use course soft-edged masks more akin to a
graduated neutral density filter. It's amazing what you can get away
with if the radius is big enough. I got turned off to hdr after not much
experimenting because of the halo effects. The halos I saw were not like
narrow sharpening halos but more like a 50-pixel glow in the sky
around the edge of buildings & trees. I found, if I mask into the
building it works out well - too obvious to have the mask/halo in the sky.

Lightroom has highlight recovery & fill sliders which I use often but
must remember to keep an eye on the results, some conditions will make
hideous halo effects. A safe formula in many cases is drop the exposure,
add fill light & increase contrast. Highlight recovery often fails but
sometimes is fine. LR has a paintbrush adjustment also so you can paint
an area and adjust all those settings for that region.





because of what HDR does in compressing the tonal range. It's an
artifact of the processing. Where it's noticeable, I usually paint it
in and, depending on the area (broad, smooth tones are the easiest),
blend with a little blurring. I have been experimenting with doing a
selection on edges a little wider than normal and working with
correcting those areas, then blending back in. I'm still working on
that and can't say it is always successful. It's iffy.
I find working with no tone curve applied and a somewhat desaturated
image helps a lot. I then bring the final image up to snuff re
contrast and saturation at the end. Another thing I am experimenting
with is not exposing based on some fixed bracketing, but exposing each
frame so that it contibutes to the final look I want. All of this is
still experimental and I can't say it's worth doing, yet.
Vance
--
Paul Furmanwww.edgehill.netwww.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I use CS4 Extended and it has the same facilities. One thing I do is
pre-process the images that are going into the HDR composite using the
same brush tool that you mentioned to adjust exposure, contrast,
saturation, etc., until the tonal range I am interested in from that
frame is good. I find that the results are better than if I just
throw the raw images into the mix and go for it.

Something I am finding extremely useful are luminosity masks.
Basically, they are gray scale images that you can apply the whole
range of adjustments to and then put into an adjustment layer mask.
The level of gray modifies the amount of effect that the adjusment
layer can apply. Where it's black, there is no effect applied and
where it's white the whole effect is applied. Since you can also
invert the mask, it's extremely flexible and you can make even finer
adjustments by painting with gray tones on the mask.

That sounds good, something I've just barely explored. I suspect that's
the approach that the hdr programs take which causes halos though I can
see how taking control of the mask with the option to paint out problem
areas makes a lot of sense!

--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam