What densities at which zones?

Thank you for your kind reply.

Zone VIII to Zone VI (about 1.10 above film base plus fog). The other
zone
densities above film base plus fog per Woods are Zone II .24, Zone III
..35,
Zone IV .55, Zone V .75.

I suppose that those density values shall change at N+1, N+2, N-1, N-2
developments.

We know that zone III or IV do not change densities while pushing. VI and
above change densities very much.
And that depends on the exposure - if I set Zone one at 0,12, then I have
problems with pushing.
If I expose at 0,24, then all the problems are solved.

So, I think that the negative, which is to be pushed must be exposed more
than N.

I use FP4 on 4x5" and I develop in paper developer Agfa Neutol.
I do not have other, while in ID 11 or Xtol I do not get reasonable
extension of the zones.

If I set the zone I on 0,12 then I get 125 ASA if 0,24 then 160 ASA.
In the first of those two possibilities makeing the development longer (in
time) does not extend the zones as needed.

With best regards,

Andrzej

Thank you for your kind reply.

Zone VIII to Zone VI (about 1.10 above film base plus fog). The other
zone
densities above film base plus fog per Woods are Zone II .24, Zone III
..35,
Zone IV .55, Zone V .75.

I suppose that those density values shall change at N+1, N+2, N-1, N-2
developments.

We know that zone III or IV do not change densities while pushing. VI and
above change densities very much.
And that depends on the exposure - if I set Zone one at 0,12, then I have
problems with pushing.
If I expose at 0,24, then all the problems are solved.

So, I think that the negative, which is to be pushed must be exposed more
than N.

I use FP4 on 4x5" and I develop in paper developer Agfa Neutol.
I do not have other, while in ID 11 or Xtol I do not get reasonable
extension of the zones.

If I set the zone I on 0,12 then I get 125 ASA if 0,24 then 160 ASA.
In the first of those two possibilities makeing the development longer (in
time) does not extend the zones as needed.

With best regards,

Andrzej

"~BitPump" wrote in message ...
Hello,

With a group of friends we are trying to calibrate our 4x5 systems for the
Zone System.
Could anybody please inform me about the densities of each zone for
different developments (N-3, N-2, N-1, N, N+1, N+2).
Preferably according to Woods.

After reading many books, brochures and web pages, we are currently more
than confused and would like an advice from somebody experienced.

With best regards,

Andrzej

Ok, whatever you do, stay away from the Picker testing method. It has
a couple of fundamental flaws that make it a worthless test. Let me
quote Dr. Richard J. Henry:

"The big question here, however, is whether or not this is a reliable
way to determine maximum black, (he is talking about judging max black
without a reflection desnitometer) the answer is no."

He then goes on to prove his statement and it is about 5 pages long,
you can find it in his book on pages 96-102.

But all is not lost, if you change the standard printing time to to
that time required to produce a Zone V tone, you can then make some
very good inferences about development times for different zones. Then
again, let me quote Dr. Henry once mo

"It is obvious that the standard printing time would hold ONLY for ONE
paper, ONE paper grade of that paper, and ONE concentration/time setup
for development. Change Change any of this and there would be a
different standard printing time."

So while Simmons is correct about incorporating your paper response in
your tests, he is wrong about everything else.

You do not say if you are using a densitometer or not, if you are not,
like I said, the Picker method can be useful if you make some changes.
OTOH if you are using a densitometer, I would recommend you do your
tests according the the BTZS method, it is far more reliable than the
ZS.

If you insist on using on using John Charles Woods method, on page 109
you have a set of densities that you can use as a guideline. For
example if you want to determine development times for N+2 you have to
determine the film development time to go from a density of 0.9 (Zone
VI) to a density of 1.35 (Zone VIII). Some films might not be able to
"expand" this much, so if you get to a density of lets say 1.25 and
up, you are in the ball park. You can make up the difference by using
a higher grade of paper. The same applies for N-2 etc, etc.

I like the Woods explanation and methodology far better than Adams'
but as a ZS user for many years I can tell you the BTZS is far
better....

"~BitPump" wrote in message ...
Hello,

With a group of friends we are trying to calibrate our 4x5 systems for the
Zone System.
Could anybody please inform me about the densities of each zone for
different developments (N-3, N-2, N-1, N, N+1, N+2).
Preferably according to Woods.

After reading many books, brochures and web pages, we are currently more
than confused and would like an advice from somebody experienced.

With best regards,

Andrzej

Ok, whatever you do, stay away from the Picker testing method. It has
a couple of fundamental flaws that make it a worthless test. Let me
quote Dr. Richard J. Henry:

"The big question here, however, is whether or not this is a reliable
way to determine maximum black, (he is talking about judging max black
without a reflection desnitometer) the answer is no."

He then goes on to prove his statement and it is about 5 pages long,
you can find it in his book on pages 96-102.

But all is not lost, if you change the standard printing time to to
that time required to produce a Zone V tone, you can then make some
very good inferences about development times for different zones. Then
again, let me quote Dr. Henry once mo

"It is obvious that the standard printing time would hold ONLY for ONE
paper, ONE paper grade of that paper, and ONE concentration/time setup
for development. Change Change any of this and there would be a
different standard printing time."

So while Simmons is correct about incorporating your paper response in
your tests, he is wrong about everything else.

You do not say if you are using a densitometer or not, if you are not,
like I said, the Picker method can be useful if you make some changes.
OTOH if you are using a densitometer, I would recommend you do your
tests according the the BTZS method, it is far more reliable than the
ZS.

If you insist on using on using John Charles Woods method, on page 109
you have a set of densities that you can use as a guideline. For
example if you want to determine development times for N+2 you have to
determine the film development time to go from a density of 0.9 (Zone
VI) to a density of 1.35 (Zone VIII). Some films might not be able to
"expand" this much, so if you get to a density of lets say 1.25 and
up, you are in the ball park. You can make up the difference by using
a higher grade of paper. The same applies for N-2 etc, etc.

I like the Woods explanation and methodology far better than Adams'
but as a ZS user for many years I can tell you the BTZS is far
better....

Dear Jorge,

Thank you for your comments, which are extremaly valuable for me.
Could you please explain the following (English is not my native language,
as you have surely noticed):

Ok, whatever you do, stay away from the Picker testing method. It has
What is Picker method? I have never heard of.

OTOH if you are using a densitometer, I would recommend you do your
What does "OTOH" mean? (Is it "Otherwise?")

tests according the the BTZS method, it is far more reliable than the
What do you mean by "BTZS"? (ZS stands for Zone System surely, but BT ?).

If you insist on using on using John Charles Woods method, on page 109
you have a set of densities that you can use as a guideline. For
That was the main reason of my first post to the newsgroup. I do not have
the book and was looking for the information (scan or table), which you say
are on the page #109. I am looking for the densities, which are shown there.

With best regards,

Andrzej Bacinski

Dear Jorge,

Thank you for your comments, which are extremaly valuable for me.
Could you please explain the following (English is not my native language,
as you have surely noticed):

Ok, whatever you do, stay away from the Picker testing method. It has
What is Picker method? I have never heard of.

OTOH if you are using a densitometer, I would recommend you do your
What does "OTOH" mean? (Is it "Otherwise?")

tests according the the BTZS method, it is far more reliable than the
What do you mean by "BTZS"? (ZS stands for Zone System surely, but BT ?).

If you insist on using on using John Charles Woods method, on page 109
you have a set of densities that you can use as a guideline. For
That was the main reason of my first post to the newsgroup. I do not have
the book and was looking for the information (scan or table), which you say
are on the page #109. I am looking for the densities, which are shown there.

With best regards,

Andrzej Bacinski

"~BitPump" wrote

Could you please explain the following (English is not my native language,
as you have surely noticed):

What is Picker method? I have never heard of [it].

Book written by one Mr. Picker. Mr. Picker disagreed with just
about everybody about just about everything. Responsible, in
some way, for "Zone IV" photographic equipment. Now departed.

What does "OTOH" mean? (Is it "Otherwise?")

It might, but on the other hand it might not.

tests according the the BTZS method

Beyond the Zone System. It's five year voyage ...
Not a bad book. Actually a pretty good book.
BTZS is also a manufacturer of photo gear.
There are lots of BTZS things that have nothing
to do with the Zone System.

ZS stands for Zone System surely, but BT ?

British Telecom.

John Charles Wood's method

Now, WTH is Johnny C. Wood?

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

"~BitPump" wrote

Could you please explain the following (English is not my native language,
as you have surely noticed):

What is Picker method? I have never heard of [it].

Book written by one Mr. Picker. Mr. Picker disagreed with just
about everybody about just about everything. Responsible, in
some way, for "Zone IV" photographic equipment. Now departed.

What does "OTOH" mean? (Is it "Otherwise?")

It might, but on the other hand it might not.

tests according the the BTZS method

Beyond the Zone System. It's five year voyage ...
Not a bad book. Actually a pretty good book.
BTZS is also a manufacturer of photo gear.
There are lots of BTZS things that have nothing
to do with the Zone System.

ZS stands for Zone System surely, but BT ?

British Telecom.

John Charles Wood's method

Now, WTH is Johnny C. Wood?

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/

That was the main reason of my first post to the newsgroup. I do not have
the book and was looking for the information (scan or table), which you
say
are on the page #109. I am looking for the densities, which are shown
there.


I provided the densities from Woods' book to you in a message two days ago.


"~BitPump" wrote in message
...
Dear Jorge,

Thank you for your comments, which are extremaly valuable for me.
Could you please explain the following (English is not my native language,
as you have surely noticed):

Ok, whatever you do, stay away from the Picker testing method. It has
What is Picker method? I have never heard of.

OTOH if you are using a densitometer, I would recommend you do your
What does "OTOH" mean? (Is it "Otherwise?")

tests according the the BTZS method, it is far more reliable than the
What do you mean by "BTZS"? (ZS stands for Zone System surely, but BT ?).

If you insist on using on using John Charles Woods method, on page 109
you have a set of densities that you can use as a guideline. For
That was the main reason of my first post to the newsgroup. I do not have
the book and was looking for the information (scan or table), which you
say
are on the page #109. I am looking for the densities, which are shown
there.

With best regards,

Andrzej Bacinski

That was the main reason of my first post to the newsgroup. I do not have
the book and was looking for the information (scan or table), which you
say
are on the page #109. I am looking for the densities, which are shown
there.


I provided the densities from Woods' book to you in a message two days ago.


"~BitPump" wrote in message
...
Dear Jorge,

Thank you for your comments, which are extremaly valuable for me.
Could you please explain the following (English is not my native language,
as you have surely noticed):

Ok, whatever you do, stay away from the Picker testing method. It has
What is Picker method? I have never heard of.

OTOH if you are using a densitometer, I would recommend you do your
What does "OTOH" mean? (Is it "Otherwise?")

tests according the the BTZS method, it is far more reliable than the
What do you mean by "BTZS"? (ZS stands for Zone System surely, but BT ?).

If you insist on using on using John Charles Woods method, on page 109
you have a set of densities that you can use as a guideline. For
That was the main reason of my first post to the newsgroup. I do not have
the book and was looking for the information (scan or table), which you
say
are on the page #109. I am looking for the densities, which are shown
there.

With best regards,

Andrzej Bacinski