A Photography forum. PhotoBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PhotoBanter.com forum » Digital Photography » Digital Photography
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old March 24th 15, 08:16 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 03:13:49 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

they are if you use the same parameters in the entire chain.

But you can't. There are settings in PS for which there is no
equivalent in LR.

if you use those, then your chain will be different.


Of course. But my point is even when the respectivechains appear to be
the same, the results are different.


appear being the key word.

if the results are different then there's something different between
the two. simple as that.


Yep - and I'm trying to identify what.

Alternatively, what do PS and LR have in common?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #12  
Old March 24th 15, 08:19 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

You use ProPhoto. LR uses Melissa. There is obviously a conversion
involved.


they be considered equivalent (the difference is not significant) and
if you're colour managed it doesn't matter at all.
  #13  
Old March 24th 15, 08:19 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Alternatively, what do PS and LR have in common?


quite a bit.
  #14  
Old March 24th 15, 10:06 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 03:19:15 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Alternatively, what do PS and LR have in common?


quite a bit.


You mean you don't really know?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #15  
Old March 24th 15, 10:08 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 03:19:14 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

You use ProPhoto. LR uses Melissa. There is obviously a conversion
involved.


they be considered equivalent (the difference is not significant) and
if you're colour managed it doesn't matter at all.


Differnt gamma is not significant? Come on now.

For a start, it will require different management of the tone curves.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #16  
Old March 24th 15, 10:10 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:50:46 GMT, "MC" wrote:

Savageduck wrote:


Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR? ...or did
you have different color management in PS and LR?


This is indeed the crucial question, the answer of which will more than
probably lead to the reason behind the reason why there are two
differing outputs.

The printer will only print the data it is told to print. If two
differing profiles are used from two different applications there is no
guarantee of identical prints.


Same profile used in all cases. Epson's 'Pro38 PGPP'

The easiest option when using two applications, regardless which you
use for your editing, is to stick to one for tweaking output and actual
printing.


--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #17  
Old March 24th 15, 11:11 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Alternatively, what do PS and LR have in common?


quite a bit.


You mean you don't really know?


it is blatantly obvious that two apps with overlapping feature sets
and which interoperate with each other, both from the same company,
will have shared code, camera raw being the obvious one, as well as
shared algorithms (where the languages differ).
  #18  
Old March 24th 15, 11:11 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

You use ProPhoto. LR uses Melissa. There is obviously a conversion
involved.


they be considered equivalent (the difference is not significant) and
if you're colour managed it doesn't matter at all.


Differnt gamma is not significant? Come on now.


completely insignificant.

what colour space is used internally makes no difference to the end
user (unless it's something stupidly tiny, which it isn't).

For a start, it will require different management of the tone curves.


not in a colour managed workflow it won't.
  #19  
Old March 25th 15, 03:06 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 18:11:14 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Alternatively, what do PS and LR have in common?

quite a bit.


You mean you don't really know?


it is blatantly obvious that two apps with overlapping feature sets
and which interoperate with each other, both from the same company,
will have shared code, camera raw being the obvious one, as well as
shared algorithms (where the languages differ).


Blather, blather ...

But you still can't actually tell us what they have in common.

In fact, my reading and use of the software suggests they run more in
parallel than in common.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #20  
Old March 25th 15, 03:34 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

On 2015-03-24 07:14:54 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:22:53 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

--- snip ---

I would anticipate changes between "Perceptual" and "Relative"
especially in that Perceptual "may change out-of-gamut colors", and
Relative "will clip out-of-gamut colors". In your particular example I
would expect to find that difference in the sky.

Quoting from Jeff Schewe:

"Perceptual Intent either compresses or expands the full gamut of
the color data from the source profile to fit the destination
profile. Gray balance is usually preserved, but colorimetric
accuracy is not preserved because Perceptual rendering generally
requires a shift of all colors away from colorimetric accuracy. The
Perceptual Intent usually includes contrast enhancing distortions
to the L* values and may also include saturation or chroma
enhancing distortions. The general goal is to produce an output
rendering where the color relationships are maintained and is
pleasing to the viewer, and colorimetric accuracy is sacrificed to
achieve that goal. Using a Perceptual rendering alters colors that
are already in the destination profile's gamut to maintain the
perceptual color relationships. Extensive research has been done in
the pursuit of optimization of Perceptual rendering algorithms, and
most companies treat these algorithms as trade secrets. The ICC has
few restrictions on the Perceptual Intent to allow companies the
freedom to implement their proprietary algorithms. As a result,
there is wide variation in the results of Perceptual Intents from
different vendors using some pretty exotic algorithms to adapt and
maintain the color appearance."

So, taking all of that into account, a valid question is "do PS and LR
both use the same algorithms?"


To give you the simple answer; I dont know.


Neither do I, but there is no reason why we should assume they are the
same.

Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR?
...or did you have different color management in PS and LR?

Tsk tsk. Of _course_ I had PS and LR respectively manage colour. I
used the same paper and the same profile in both.


OK! I was just checking.

I never have the printer manage color in either PS or LR and I will use
a matching icc profile.
Also remember to have color management turned off in the printer
settings in both PS & LR.

Then in the LR print module you have a print adjustment option for
adjusting brightness and contrast in the print. None of these
adjustments are previewed in LR and will only be revealed in test
prints.

Didn't touch it.


You might want to.


Eraly on, I did touch them, but all they did was increase the
differences. I didn't touch them for the four prints.


OK! However, if you are going to use LR to produce your final prints
you might want to tweak those adjustments a tad, and for future
reference save that configuration as a preset.

As to using "Perceptual" or "Relative", that need is going to be
determined by the character of the print and your intent.

Which is why I now think that no firm advice should be given as to
which one is the correct one to use.

Color spaces: with LR, the working color space is Melissa RGB. This is
basicly ProPhoto with a special gamma curve.


Why? I use straight out of the package ProPhoto RGB.


You use ProPhoto. LR uses Melissa. There is obviously a conversion
involved. Re Melissa, see
http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/imprint_downloads/peachpit/peachpit/lightroom4/pdf_files/LightroomRGB_Space.pdf

or http://tinyurl.com/lk2jmlh


That was interesting information, of which I was previously ignorant. I
have not read anywhere else that there was a different variety of
ProPhoto RGD specifically for use by LR.

Whatever it is, it was
converted to Epson's Pro38 PGPP for printing.


...and another colorspace change? To what purpose?
I can see assigning the appropriate icc profile, but changing color
space twice in midstream is something else.


Converted to Pro38 PGPP because that is the profile for the Pro 3800
printer using Premium Glossy Photo Paper.


So, Epson Pro38 PGPP isn't an obscure colorspace, but a paper/printer
profile. The way you phrased that sentence above led me to believe that
it was a another colorspace, since adding a profile to the mix, doesn't
change/convert the colorspace. It is not an Epson profile I am familiar
with.

In PS, it was ProPhoto RGB converted to sRGB (for screen). I wonder if
this difference is enough to explain my print results?


If you are going to demand consistent print renditions the least you
could do is be consistent with colorspace , paper, and icc profile. So
the print settings were not the same for LR, or PS.

Now that sounds as if that is your LR - PS inconsistency.


I have no control over this: it's LR and PS which require these
things. I have some more thoughts. I will see what happens and report
back.


I wouldn't have gone from ProPhoto RGB in PS to sRGB, regardless if it
was for screen. These days I do very little printing from PS as all the
finished work ends up back in LR as a TIFF, or PSD retaining the
ProPhoto RGB colorspace. All prints are made from those, or virtual
copies of LR adjusted RAW files.
I only create JPEGs in sRGB when I export for sharing using the LR
export dialog.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why use Lightroom if you already have Photoshop?? Jack[_10_] Digital Photography 70 December 21st 08 04:44 PM
Why use Lightroom if you already have Photoshop?? Jack[_10_] Digital SLR Cameras 74 December 21st 08 04:44 PM
Tutorial for Adobe Photoshop Lightroom GMD Digital Photography 2 May 7th 07 02:29 AM
Adobe Photoshop Lightroom John McWilliams Digital Photography 25 March 13th 07 06:21 PM
Adobe Photoshop Lightroom [email protected] Digital Photography 3 November 17th 06 07:24 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 PhotoBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.