Lightroom vs Photoshop when printing.

I have just made a discovery which I think is worth spreading around.
No doubt there will be many people who will no about what I have
discovered already. I am not writing for them but for the people who,
like me, didn't know about this already.

The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

It started with me trying to use LR to make an A4 size print of a
slightly modified version of
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/_DSC2508%20as%20Smart%20Object-1.jpg
or http://tinyurl.com/kflzcq6

I was startled by the result. In particular, the sky and the mist were
much lighter in colour and were not at all satisfactory. I made
several more prints with differing but still unsatisfactory results.

At this point I went through both LR and Photoshop and configured them
identically where this was possible. There was not much I could do
with LR and, from what I have read, it's internal management is not
quite the same as Photoshops. Anyway I ran a series of tests using
4" x 6" prints and, no matter what I did, I was unable to get either
identical prints or prints that look like the original does on my
screen.

The LR prints were all run from the edited image with no further
adjustments. The PS image was printed after the LR image had been
imported into PS as a plug in. At no stage was the image furter
edited. The only changes were made to print settings.

I have scanned four prints to indicate the results. These may be found
at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Printer%20Test.jpg

The lefthand column were printed from LR and the right is from PS.
The top row are set for 'relative colorimetric' and the bottom are
'perceptual'. No two prints are the same.

LR shows some gamut clipping in the sky along the top and also in some
of the plants in the foreground. Until I saw it, I did not realise how
much 'relative colorimetric' can push around the colours in the image.
Some books recommend always using relative colorimetric. Others
recommend perceptual. Where gamut clipping is involved, I will in
future try both.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

they are if you use the same parameters in the entire chain.

somewhere along the way, you're doing something different in each app.

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:33:39 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

they are if you use the same parameters in the entire chain.

But you can't. There are settings in PS for which there is no
equivalent in LR.

somewhere along the way, you're doing something different in each app.

Something is doing something different.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

they are if you use the same parameters in the entire chain.

But you can't. There are settings in PS for which there is no
equivalent in LR.

if you use those, then your chain will be different.

On 2015-03-23 23:26:32 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

I have just made a discovery which I think is worth spreading around.
No doubt there will be many people who will no about what I have
discovered already. I am not writing for them but for the people who,
like me, didn't know about this already.

The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

It started with me trying to use LR to make an A4 size print of a
slightly modified version of
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/_DSC2508%20as%20Smart%20Object-1.jpg

or http://tinyurl.com/kflzcq6

I was startled by the result. In particular, the sky and the mist were
much lighter in colour and were not at all satisfactory. I made
several more prints with differing but still unsatisfactory results.

At this point I went through both LR and Photoshop and configured them
identically where this was possible. There was not much I could do
with LR and, from what I have read, it's internal management is not
quite the same as Photoshops. Anyway I ran a series of tests using
4" x 6" prints and, no matter what I did, I was unable to get either
identical prints or prints that look like the original does on my
screen.

The LR prints were all run from the edited image with no further
adjustments. The PS image was printed after the LR image had been
imported into PS as a plug in. At no stage was the image furter
edited. The only changes were made to print settings.

I have scanned four prints to indicate the results. These may be found
at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Printer%20Test.jpg

The lefthand column were printed from LR and the right is from PS.
The top row are set for 'relative colorimetric' and the bottom are
'perceptual'. No two prints are the same.

LR shows some gamut clipping in the sky along the top and also in some
of the plants in the foreground. Until I saw it, I did not realise how
much 'relative colorimetric' can push around the colours in the image.
Some books recommend always using relative colorimetric. Others
recommend perceptual. Where gamut clipping is involved, I will in
future try both.

I would anticipate changes between "Perceptual" and "Relative"
especially in that Perceptual "may change out-of-gamut colors", and
Relative "will clip out-of-gamut colors". In your particular example I
would expect to find that difference in the sky.

Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR?
....or did you have different color management in PS and LR?

I never have the printer manage color in either PS or LR and I will use
a matching icc profile.
Also remember to have color management turned off in the printer
settings in both PS & LR.

Then in the LR print module you have a print adjustment option for
adjusting brightness and contrast in the print. None of these
adjustments are previewed in LR and will only be revealed in test
prints.

As to using "Perceptual" or "Relative", that need is going to be
determined by the character of the print and your intent.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:06:37 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

they are if you use the same parameters in the entire chain.

But you can't. There are settings in PS for which there is no
equivalent in LR.

if you use those, then your chain will be different.

Of course. But my point is even when the respectivechains appear to be
the same, the results are different.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:40:11 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2015-03-23 23:26:32 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

I have just made a discovery which I think is worth spreading around.
No doubt there will be many people who will no about what I have
discovered already. I am not writing for them but for the people who,
like me, didn't know about this already.

The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

It started with me trying to use LR to make an A4 size print of a
slightly modified version of
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/_DSC2508%20as%20Smart%20Object-1.jpg

or http://tinyurl.com/kflzcq6

I was startled by the result. In particular, the sky and the mist were
much lighter in colour and were not at all satisfactory. I made
several more prints with differing but still unsatisfactory results.

At this point I went through both LR and Photoshop and configured them
identically where this was possible. There was not much I could do
with LR and, from what I have read, it's internal management is not
quite the same as Photoshops. Anyway I ran a series of tests using
4" x 6" prints and, no matter what I did, I was unable to get either
identical prints or prints that look like the original does on my
screen.

The LR prints were all run from the edited image with no further
adjustments. The PS image was printed after the LR image had been
imported into PS as a plug in. At no stage was the image furter
edited. The only changes were made to print settings.

I have scanned four prints to indicate the results. These may be found
at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Printer%20Test.jpg

The lefthand column were printed from LR and the right is from PS.
The top row are set for 'relative colorimetric' and the bottom are
'perceptual'. No two prints are the same.

LR shows some gamut clipping in the sky along the top and also in some
of the plants in the foreground. Until I saw it, I did not realise how
much 'relative colorimetric' can push around the colours in the image.
Some books recommend always using relative colorimetric. Others
recommend perceptual. Where gamut clipping is involved, I will in
future try both.

I would anticipate changes between "Perceptual" and "Relative"
especially in that Perceptual "may change out-of-gamut colors", and
Relative "will clip out-of-gamut colors". In your particular example I
would expect to find that difference in the sky.

Quoting from Jeff Schewe:

"Perceptual Intent either compresses or expands the full gamut of
the color data from the source profile to fit the destination
profile. Gray balance is usually preserved, but colorimetric
accuracy is not preserved because Perceptual rendering generally
requires a shift of all colors away from colorimetric accuracy. The
Perceptual Intent usually includes contrast enhancing distortions
to the L* values and may also include saturation or chroma
enhancing distortions. The general goal is to produce an output
rendering where the color relationships are maintained and is
pleasing to the viewer, and colorimetric accuracy is sacrificed to
achieve that goal. Using a Perceptual rendering alters colors that
are already in the destination profile's gamut to maintain the
perceptual color relationships. Extensive research has been done in
the pursuit of optimization of Perceptual rendering algorithms, and
most companies treat these algorithms as trade secrets. The ICC has
few restrictions on the Perceptual Intent to allow companies the
freedom to implement their proprietary algorithms. As a result,
there is wide variation in the results of Perceptual Intents from
different vendors using some pretty exotic algorithms to adapt and
maintain the color appearance."

So, taking all of that into account, a valid question is "do PS and LR
both use the same algorithms?"


Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR?
...or did you have different color management in PS and LR?

Tsk tsk. Of _course_ I had PS and LR respectively manage colour. I
used the same paper and the same profile in both.

I never have the printer manage color in either PS or LR and I will use
a matching icc profile.
Also remember to have color management turned off in the printer
settings in both PS & LR.

Then in the LR print module you have a print adjustment option for
adjusting brightness and contrast in the print. None of these
adjustments are previewed in LR and will only be revealed in test
prints.

Didn't touch it.

As to using "Perceptual" or "Relative", that need is going to be
determined by the character of the print and your intent.

Which is why I now think that no firm advice should be given as to
which one is the correct one to use.

Color spaces: with LR, the working color space is Melissa RGB. This is
basicly ProPhoto with a special gamma curve. Whatever it is, it was
converted to Epson's Pro38 PGPP for printing.

In PS, it was ProPhoto RGB converted to sRGB (for screen). I wonder if
this difference is enough to explain my print results?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 2015-03-24 04:04:17 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:40:11 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2015-03-23 23:26:32 +0000, Eric Stevens said:

I have just made a discovery which I think is worth spreading around.
No doubt there will be many people who will no about what I have
discovered already. I am not writing for them but for the people who,
like me, didn't know about this already.

The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

It started with me trying to use LR to make an A4 size print of a
slightly modified version of
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/_DSC2508%20as%20Smart%20Object-1.jpg


or http://tinyurl.com/kflzcq6

I was startled by the result. In particular, the sky and the mist were
much lighter in colour and were not at all satisfactory. I made
several more prints with differing but still unsatisfactory results.

At this point I went through both LR and Photoshop and configured them
identically where this was possible. There was not much I could do
with LR and, from what I have read, it's internal management is not
quite the same as Photoshops. Anyway I ran a series of tests using
4" x 6" prints and, no matter what I did, I was unable to get either
identical prints or prints that look like the original does on my
screen.

The LR prints were all run from the edited image with no further
adjustments. The PS image was printed after the LR image had been
imported into PS as a plug in. At no stage was the image furter
edited. The only changes were made to print settings.

I have scanned four prints to indicate the results. These may be found
at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31088803/Printer%20Test.jpg

The lefthand column were printed from LR and the right is from PS.
The top row are set for 'relative colorimetric' and the bottom are
'perceptual'. No two prints are the same.

LR shows some gamut clipping in the sky along the top and also in some
of the plants in the foreground. Until I saw it, I did not realise how
much 'relative colorimetric' can push around the colours in the image.
Some books recommend always using relative colorimetric. Others
recommend perceptual. Where gamut clipping is involved, I will in
future try both.

I would anticipate changes between "Perceptual" and "Relative"
especially in that Perceptual "may change out-of-gamut colors", and
Relative "will clip out-of-gamut colors". In your particular example I
would expect to find that difference in the sky.

Quoting from Jeff Schewe:

"Perceptual Intent either compresses or expands the full gamut of
the color data from the source profile to fit the destination
profile. Gray balance is usually preserved, but colorimetric
accuracy is not preserved because Perceptual rendering generally
requires a shift of all colors away from colorimetric accuracy. The
Perceptual Intent usually includes contrast enhancing distortions
to the L* values and may also include saturation or chroma
enhancing distortions. The general goal is to produce an output
rendering where the color relationships are maintained and is
pleasing to the viewer, and colorimetric accuracy is sacrificed to
achieve that goal. Using a Perceptual rendering alters colors that
are already in the destination profile's gamut to maintain the
perceptual color relationships. Extensive research has been done in
the pursuit of optimization of Perceptual rendering algorithms, and
most companies treat these algorithms as trade secrets. The ICC has
few restrictions on the Perceptual Intent to allow companies the
freedom to implement their proprietary algorithms. As a result,
there is wide variation in the results of Perceptual Intents from
different vendors using some pretty exotic algorithms to adapt and
maintain the color appearance."

So, taking all of that into account, a valid question is "do PS and LR
both use the same algorithms?"

To give you the simple answer; I dont know.

Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR?
...or did you have different color management in PS and LR?

Tsk tsk. Of _course_ I had PS and LR respectively manage colour. I
used the same paper and the same profile in both.

OK! I was just checking.

I never have the printer manage color in either PS or LR and I will use
a matching icc profile.
Also remember to have color management turned off in the printer
settings in both PS & LR.

Then in the LR print module you have a print adjustment option for
adjusting brightness and contrast in the print. None of these
adjustments are previewed in LR and will only be revealed in test
prints.

Didn't touch it.

You might want to.

As to using "Perceptual" or "Relative", that need is going to be
determined by the character of the print and your intent.

Which is why I now think that no firm advice should be given as to
which one is the correct one to use.

Color spaces: with LR, the working color space is Melissa RGB. This is
basicly ProPhoto with a special gamma curve.

Why? I use straight out of the package ProPhoto RGB.

Whatever it is, it was
converted to Epson's Pro38 PGPP for printing.

....and another colorspace change? To what purpose?
I can see assigning the appropriate icc profile, but changing color
space twice in midstream is something else.

In PS, it was ProPhoto RGB converted to sRGB (for screen). I wonder if
this difference is enough to explain my print results?

If you are going to demand consistent print renditions the least you
could do is be consistent with colorspace , paper, and icc profile. So
the print settings were not the same for LR, or PS.

Now that sounds as if that is your LR - PS inconsistency.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

The printed output of Lightroom and Photoshop are not identical.
Further, I have not (yet) found a way to make a print on one which
will match the output of another.

they are if you use the same parameters in the entire chain.

But you can't. There are settings in PS for which there is no
equivalent in LR.

if you use those, then your chain will be different.

Of course. But my point is even when the respectivechains appear to be
the same, the results are different.

appear being the key word.

if the results are different then there's something different between
the two. simple as that.

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:22:53 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

--- snip ---

I would anticipate changes between "Perceptual" and "Relative"
especially in that Perceptual "may change out-of-gamut colors", and
Relative "will clip out-of-gamut colors". In your particular example I
would expect to find that difference in the sky.

Quoting from Jeff Schewe:

"Perceptual Intent either compresses or expands the full gamut of
the color data from the source profile to fit the destination
profile. Gray balance is usually preserved, but colorimetric
accuracy is not preserved because Perceptual rendering generally
requires a shift of all colors away from colorimetric accuracy. The
Perceptual Intent usually includes contrast enhancing distortions
to the L* values and may also include saturation or chroma
enhancing distortions. The general goal is to produce an output
rendering where the color relationships are maintained and is
pleasing to the viewer, and colorimetric accuracy is sacrificed to
achieve that goal. Using a Perceptual rendering alters colors that
are already in the destination profile's gamut to maintain the
perceptual color relationships. Extensive research has been done in
the pursuit of optimization of Perceptual rendering algorithms, and
most companies treat these algorithms as trade secrets. The ICC has
few restrictions on the Perceptual Intent to allow companies the
freedom to implement their proprietary algorithms. As a result,
there is wide variation in the results of Perceptual Intents from
different vendors using some pretty exotic algorithms to adapt and
maintain the color appearance."

So, taking all of that into account, a valid question is "do PS and LR
both use the same algorithms?"

To give you the simple answer; I dont know.

Neither do I, but there is no reason why we should assume they are the
same.

Most importantly, did you have the printer handle color management in
both, or did you have "Photoshop Manages Colors" + appropriate icc
profile, and "Other" with an icc profile selected in LR?
...or did you have different color management in PS and LR?

Tsk tsk. Of _course_ I had PS and LR respectively manage colour. I
used the same paper and the same profile in both.

OK! I was just checking.

I never have the printer manage color in either PS or LR and I will use
a matching icc profile.
Also remember to have color management turned off in the printer
settings in both PS & LR.

Then in the LR print module you have a print adjustment option for
adjusting brightness and contrast in the print. None of these
adjustments are previewed in LR and will only be revealed in test
prints.

Didn't touch it.

You might want to.

Eraly on, I did touch them, but all they did was increase the
differences. I didn't touch them for the four prints.

As to using "Perceptual" or "Relative", that need is going to be
determined by the character of the print and your intent.

Which is why I now think that no firm advice should be given as to
which one is the correct one to use.

Color spaces: with LR, the working color space is Melissa RGB. This is
basicly ProPhoto with a special gamma curve.

Why? I use straight out of the package ProPhoto RGB.

You use ProPhoto. LR uses Melissa. There is obviously a conversion
involved. Re Melissa, see
http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/imprint_downloads/peachpit/peachpit/lightroom4/pdf_files/LightroomRGB_Space.pdf
or http://tinyurl.com/lk2jmlh

Whatever it is, it was
converted to Epson's Pro38 PGPP for printing.

...and another colorspace change? To what purpose?
I can see assigning the appropriate icc profile, but changing color
space twice in midstream is something else.

Converted to Pro38 PGPP because that is the profile for the Pro 3800
printer using Premium Glossy Photo Paper.

In PS, it was ProPhoto RGB converted to sRGB (for screen). I wonder if
this difference is enough to explain my print results?

If you are going to demand consistent print renditions the least you
could do is be consistent with colorspace , paper, and icc profile. So
the print settings were not the same for LR, or PS.

Now that sounds as if that is your LR - PS inconsistency.

I have no control over this: it's LR and PS which require these
things. I have some more thoughts. I will see what happens and report
back.


--
Regards,

Savageduck
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens