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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
I have read with interest an article titled: "The Great HD Shoot-Out - Canon
HV20, Sony HDR-HC7, Panasonic HDC-SD1, JVC GZ-HD7" by David Kender and John Neely. http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm It says in this article that: "In 1080/60i, the Canon HV20 and Sony HDR-HC7 had nearly identical low light performance. The sensitivity (ability to produce 50 IRE) for both was 7 lux, which is a very low light level. Color accuracy and saturation levels were similar. The Canon produced slightly less noise, which was evident by simple looking at the image. But the Canon HV20 became hands-down champion of low light by virtue of a simple trick: 24P. By switching the HV20 into 24P, the sensitivity more than doubled, dropping all the way down to 3 lux. What's more, the color accuracy improved and the noise dropped. The ability to shoot in 24P is one of the strongest selling points of the HV20, and the results of this test prove how valuable that can be. Filmmakers should take note, however, that your project should probably be start-to-finish in either interlaced or progressive. The difference is jarring, even to the untrained eye." Apparently, the Sony HDR-HC7 doesn't have the ability to film in 24p and therefore can't match the Canon's low light performance when the latter is filming in 24p. In this article: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm John Neely says that: "Sony's HDR-HC7 ($1399 MSRP) was to be one of the best, if not the best, consumer camcorders of 2007. It was certainly priced as such. But it didn't work out that way. First off, while the video quality in bright light was great, we have once again discovered a high-priced camcorder with seriously deficient low light performance (the last being Canon's HV10)." But it seems that it's only when filming in 24p that the low light performance of the Canon HV20 is better than that of the Sony HDR-HC7? Can anyone tell me their experiences of filming in 24P on a camcorder like the Canon HV20 and whether a full project in this format would be as good as one filmed in other formats available to the owner of a Sony HDR-HC7? Thanks, David |
#2
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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
"David C" wrote in message ... I have read with interest an article titled: "The Great HD Shoot-Out - Canon HV20, Sony HDR-HC7, Panasonic HDC-SD1, JVC GZ-HD7" by David Kender and John Neely. http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Canon-HV20-Son y-HDR-HC7-Panasonic-HDC-SD1-JVC-GZ-HD7/Performance.htm It says in this article that: "In 1080/60i, the Canon HV20 and Sony HDR-HC7 had nearly identical low light performance. The sensitivity (ability to produce 50 IRE) for both was 7 lux, which is a very low light level. Color accuracy and saturation levels were similar. The Canon produced slightly less noise, which was evident by simple looking at the image. But the Canon HV20 became hands-down champion of low light by virtue of a simple trick: 24P. By switching the HV20 into 24P, the sensitivity more than doubled, dropping all the way down to 3 lux. What's more, the color accuracy improved and the noise dropped. The ability to shoot in 24P is one of the strongest selling points of the HV20, and the results of this test prove how valuable that can be. Filmmakers should take note, however, that your project should probably be start-to-finish in either interlaced or progressive. The difference is jarring, even to the untrained eye." Apparently, the Sony HDR-HC7 doesn't have the ability to film in 24p and therefore can't match the Canon's low light performance when the latter is filming in 24p. In this article: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy, but I have done some tests on the Sony HVR-V1U that indicate that noise is lower in INTERLACED mode than in progressive mode. According to my informal tests using the subjective awareness of the threshold at which I could notice noise in the viewfinder image while shooting general images in-studio, it seemed that I could add 3dB more gain to the interlaced mode before noise became visible in the VF than I could in progressive mode. Now, there is an acceptable argument for better quality MPEG from progressive images than from interlaced, which MAY play a role in this difference that many are noting about the HV20. I have one on order from B&H and it should be here in a couple of days, at which time I will conduct some of my own evaluations. It will serve as B-roll to my two V1Us. Mark Weiss, P.E. http://www.basspig.com/hvrv1u_HDV_artifacts.htm |
#3
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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
"Mark Weiss" wrote ...
I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy, The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises the video signal farther up from the noise floor. The difference is 24.9% longer integration time (1/24 vs 1/30) |
#4
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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Mark Weiss" wrote ... I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy, The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises the video signal farther up from the noise floor. The difference is 24.9% longer integration time (1/24 vs 1/30) Thanks Mark and Richard for your replies. The review by John Neely of the Sony HDR-HC7 said that: "Our new test showed that the HDR-HC7 was capable of producing 50 IRE at approximately 7 lux, which put it on par with the Canon HV20 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $903) (review in process now) in 1080i. However, the HV20 easily outperformed the Sony when shooting in 24P mode, going all the way down to 3 lux. There was a also major qualitative difference in how the image looked. Compared to the Canon HV20 in both 1080i and 24P, Sony's 1080i had considerably more noise. There was really no contest. The Canon HV20 won, hands down." http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm John Neely also said that: "All in all, the 24P mode is reason enough to choose the HV20 over anything else on the market in this price range, because it’s presented as an option. " http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm Do you agree that the ability of the Canon HV20 to film in 24P mode is sufficient reason to choose it over anything else on the market in this price range? It seems that once you start filming a project in 24P mode, you shouldn't change over to 1080i. But John Neely says that "shooting fast motion, like sports, however, would be better in 1080i." So from a practical viewpoint, how many "average" home video users would really benefit from the consistent use of the 24P mode, rather than using 1080i? If the 24P mode is so great and is such a huge advantage over 1080i, why wouldn't Sony have included a 24P mode option in the HDR-HC7? If it weren't for the 24P mode issue, I would purchase the Sony HDRHC7, but if it really is a big advantage to be able to film in 24P mode as John Neely suggests, then I may purchase the Canon HRV20. However, the ability of the Sony HDRHC7 to take 6mp stills together with its excellent ergonomic qualities, makes this a good choice also. |
#5
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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Mark Weiss" wrote ... I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy, The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises the video signal farther up from the noise floor. The difference is 24.9% longer integration time (1/24 vs 1/30) Just a further point about the Canon HV20, the one I looked at actually has a 25P shooting mode, not 24P. This is dicussed he http://www.avforums.com/forums/showt...hp?t=545601HDV Does anyone know whether mini DV tape utilised to record film in the 25P format can be edited satisfactorily in Sony Vegas? Thanks, David |
#6
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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:48:17 +1200, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?, "David C" wrote: "Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Mark Weiss" wrote ... I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy, The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises the video signal farther up from the noise floor. The difference is 24.9% longer integration time (1/24 vs 1/30) Thanks Mark and Richard for your replies. The review by John Neely of the Sony HDR-HC7 said that: "Our new test showed that the HDR-HC7 was capable of producing 50 IRE at approximately 7 lux, which put it on par with the Canon HV20 (Review, Specs, Recent News, $903) (review in process now) in 1080i. However, the HV20 easily outperformed the Sony when shooting in 24P mode, going all the way down to 3 lux. There was a also major qualitative difference in how the image looked. Compared to the Canon HV20 in both 1080i and 24P, Sony's 1080i had considerably more noise. There was really no contest. The Canon HV20 won, hands down." http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm John Neely also said that: "All in all, the 24P mode is reason enough to choose the HV20 over anything else on the market in this price range, because it’s presented as an option. " http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm David, it's been a long and difficult day (Tuesday, that is; it's now Wednesday), so I'll need to be brief, but here are my thoughts on this... Do you agree that the ability of the Canon HV20 to film in 24P mode is sufficient reason to choose it over anything else on the market in this price range? Absolutely not. Some will choose the Sony HDR-HC7 just because of its better build quality (less plastic, more metal). It seems that once you start filming a project in 24P mode, you shouldn't change over to 1080i. But John Neely says that "shooting fast motion, like sports, however, would be better in 1080i." So from a practical viewpoint, how many "average" home video users would really benefit from the consistent use of the 24P mode, rather than using 1080i? In general, anyone who doesn't know exactly why they need 24p should never use 24p. 24p is for people who know what 24p is, how to shoot it, and how to edit it. If you don't already know all of that, then don't use it. You didn't describe the nature of your "project" (your word from your initial post), but unless you're planning a film-out and expect audiences to view your work on the silver screen, I'd recommend that you forget about shooting 24p video (actually 23.976 fps in a 2:3 pulldown in a 1080i59.94 datastream). I the 24P mode is so great and is such a huge advantage over 1080i, why wouldn't Sony have included a 24P mode option in the HDR-HC7? Are you kidding? Using current B&H prices for U.S. models (you appear to be in New Zealand), the consumer-grade HDR-HC7 is $1049.95 and the prosumer-grade HVR-V1U is $3599.95 after $300 Sony mail-in rebate. The two camcorders are in different classes. It took an act of god to get Sony to include 24p on the HVR-V1U and you want to see it on the HDR-HC7? Maybe someday, but not yet. If it weren't for the 24P mode issue, I would purchase the Sony HDRHC7, but if it really is a big advantage to be able to film in 24P mode as John Neely suggests, then I may purchase the Canon HRV20. However, the ability of the Sony HDRHC7 to take 6mp stills together with its excellent ergonomic qualities, makes this a good choice also. Unless you prefer the Canon name over the Sony name, my straight-from-the-hip advice would be to get the HDR-HC7 and shoot normal 1080i59.94 video if it's really video that you want to shoot. When you're ready to shoot film, get a low-cost but modern film camera to start with. The Arriflex 235 is a nice small, affordable, single-pin-registration, PL-mount, 35 mm camera. It weights less than 10 pounds, offers video assist, sits nicely on the shoulder, and is 3-perf so that you save 25 percent on film stock and lab fees. It's remote controllable, does variable speeds of 1 to 60 frames per second, and takes 200-foot and 400-foot magazines. Rent glass as needed. http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/235/235.htm Video sucks, film forever! (You can tell that I'm tired.) -- Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY [Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.] Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/ |
#7
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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:50:01 +1200, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?, "David C" wrote: "Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Mark Weiss" wrote ... I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy, The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises the video signal farther up from the noise floor. The difference is 24.9% longer integration time (1/24 vs 1/30) Just a further point about the Canon HV20, the one I looked at actually has a 25P shooting mode, not 24P. This is dicussed he http://www.avforums.com/forums/showt...hp?t=545601HDV If you're in New Zealand, which is a System B PAL country, the Canon HV20 that you would purchase there would be the 25p (50 Hz) model and not the 24p (60 Hz) model. Does anyone know whether mini DV tape utilised to record film in the 25P format can be edited satisfactorily in Sony Vegas? I would check the Vegas forums for absolute confirmation of that, but as far as I know Vegas should handle 25p (PsP) from the 50 Hz versions of the Sony HVR-V1 series camcorders, so I would think that it could handle 25p from a 50 Hz Canon HV20. Thanks, David You're welcome. -- Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY [Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.] Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/ |
#8
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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:07:06 -0400, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?, Frank wrote: On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:50:01 +1200, in 'rec.video.desktop', in article Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?, "David C" wrote: "Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Mark Weiss" wrote ... I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy, The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises the video signal farther up from the noise floor. The difference is 24.9% longer integration time (1/24 vs 1/30) Just a further point about the Canon HV20, the one I looked at actually has a 25P shooting mode, not 24P. This is dicussed he http://www.avforums.com/forums/showt...hp?t=545601HDV If you're in New Zealand, which is a System B PAL country, the Canon HV20 that you would purchase there would be the 25p (50 Hz) model and not the 24p (60 Hz) model. Does anyone know whether mini DV tape utilised to record film in the 25P format can be edited satisfactorily in Sony Vegas? I would check the Vegas forums for absolute confirmation of that, but as far as I know Vegas should handle 25p (PsP) from the 50 Hz versions of the Sony HVR-V1 series camcorders, so I would think that it could handle 25p from a 50 Hz Canon HV20. Sorry, very tired. Make that "25p (PsF)" instead of "25p (PsP)". And if you *are* in New Zealand, then normal video would be 1080i50. Here in the U.S., it's 1080i59.94. Thanks, David You're welcome. -- Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY [Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.] Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/ |
#9
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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
"Frank" wrote in message
... David, it's been a long and difficult day (Tuesday, that is; it's now Wednesday), so I'll need to be brief, but here are my thoughts on this... Thanks very much Frank for you informative comments, they are most helpful. "David C" wrote: Do you agree that the ability of the Canon HV20 to film in 24P mode is sufficient reason to choose it over anything else on the market in this price range? Absolutely not. Some will choose the Sony HDR-HC7 just because of its better build quality (less plastic, more metal). True, but my main criteria is the quality of the video, and that's why I became interested in John Neely's enthusiasm for the 24p mode, which is available in the Canon HV20, but not in the Sony HDR-HC7. It seems that once you start filming a project in 24P mode, you shouldn't change over to 1080i. But John Neely says that "shooting fast motion, like sports, however, would be better in 1080i." So from a practical viewpoint, how many "average" home video users would really benefit from the consistent use of the 24P mode, rather than using 1080i? In general, anyone who doesn't know exactly why they need 24p should never use 24p. 24p is for people who know what 24p is, how to shoot it, and how to edit it. If you don't already know all of that, then don't use it. I would tend to agree, but if the use of 24p can substantially improve low light performance and overall video quality, then it might be worth my while to gain sufficient knowledge to sensibly use 24p? You didn't describe the nature of your "project" (your word from your initial post), but unless you're planning a film-out and expect audiences to view your work on the silver screen, I'd recommend that you forget about shooting 24p video (actually 23.976 fps in a 2:3 pulldown in a 1080i59.94 datastream). My projects are mainly family ones, such as shooting holidays, kids' parties and school productions. But even such simple applications can benefit from a good low light performing camcorder, hence my questions about 24p. If the 24P mode is so great and is such a huge advantage over 1080i, why wouldn't Sony have included a 24P mode option in the HDR-HC7? Are you kidding? Using current B&H prices for U.S. models (you appear to be in New Zealand), the consumer-grade HDR-HC7 is $1049.95 and the prosumer-grade HVR-V1U is $3599.95 after $300 Sony mail-in rebate. The two camcorders are in different classes. It took an act of god to get Sony to include 24p on the HVR-V1U and you want to see it on the HDR-HC7? Maybe someday, but not yet. It seems strange that the Canon HV 20 is able to feature a 24p mode option and cost $500 less (in New Zealand) than the Sony HDR-HC7, which doesn't have a 24p option. I wonder whether 24p will become a fairly standard expectation of camcorder buyers in the future? snip Thanks again for your help. Regards, David |
#10
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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?
"David C" wrote ...
I would tend to agree, but if the use of 24p can substantially improve low light performance and overall video quality, then it might be worth my while to gain sufficient knowledge to sensibly use 24p? But using 24p is a backwards way of improving low light performance, and carries substantial disadvantages in subsequent distribution, etc. of the video. IMHO it is NOT a practical way to get better low light performance. If you want better low light performance, then use a camera that inherently has better low light performance. My projects are mainly family ones, such as shooting holidays, kids' parties and school productions. But even such simple applications can benefit from a good low light performing camcorder, hence my questions about 24p. But then what do you intend to do with 24p video? How do you distribute it so that the intended audience (family members? others?) can view it? |
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