Your flash can damage your camera!

"Michael A. Covington" wrote:

I tend to think it would have been better engineering if they had changed
the connector type when they started requiring lower sync voltages. Maybe
modify the hot shoe in some clever way so that it will still work on an old
camera, but a newer (low-voltage-requiring) camera will only make contact
with the newer-style hot shoe.

Unfortunately this was not done.

Well, it depends on how you look at it, IMHO. The designers sit down with the
engineering brief and design the system, camera, matching flash etc. Is it
really their responsibility to ensure that no other flash unit can be fitted to
their camera? What about responsibility regarding production costs, blown to
hell with providing anti-everything they haven't designed, just for the oddball
who might try a near 30-year-old flash? Does a car manufacturer ensure that
dangerous mods cannot be done to his models? Imagine what that would cost. I
think a degree of responsibility is called for from users of modern systems,
and not spit the dummy 'coz their legacy gear won't - and shouldn't - work with
new equipment.

Repeat, all IMHO.

Colin

Colin D wrote:


Alan Browne wrote:


Colin D wrote:


me wrote:



When I found out that some flash units use very high trigger voltages,
several hundred volts in some cases, I was very displeased. Not that this
presents any problem for me right now but it might in the future. I
purchased my camera and flash in 1978 and both look and work like new.


snip

Lemme see if I got this right. You bought a flash unit twenty-six years ago,
and you're 'very displeased' that it might not work with a new camera? Well, I
think I have a similar problem. I got this high-performance 4-barrel
carburettor that came off my '78 TransAm, and the salesman tells me I can't fit
it onto my new petrol-injected 4WD Jeep. Boy, am I ****ed, or what! Those
pesky designers, they oughta be fired for making my old junk unusable in the
name of progress. Mumble, mumble ...

Fact is that some old strobes have pretty high trigger voltages (200 - 300V) and
some of the cameras we're seeing can't take it. I'm happy the poster put up
thse links ... I had lost the link from my bookmarks (and was too lazy to hunt
for them again).

Cheers,
Alan


Yes, that's reasonably common knowledge, but I think to *expect* such an old flash
to work on modern electronic cameras is a bit much. The same poster considers his

Don't you expect your tv to work whe n you plug it into the old wall socket?
Especially when cameras have a standard hotshoe, mechanically and electrically
the same for decades, it is reasonable to expect them to be comaptible. Same
for the sync cable.

camera and flash 'work like new'. The gear is 26 years old. Capacitors in the flash
gun will be at least partially dried out, reducing the capacitance and the GN, the
tube will undoubtedly have leaked gas over that period, resulting in changed

I have a 30 year old Sunpack. Little thing that I use for hairlights and such.
Works fine. The age of the flash is not so relevant and cap aging isn't as
universal as everyone likes to point out. A fellow I know is selling a pak
studio strobe set that is well over 20 years old. Works fine (has it dropped in
o/p, yeah, probably, but still delivers f/16 in the studio via umbrellas).

color-temperature output (probably gone blue). The camera will need a CLA to be

If the strobe is really bad I believe it will go yellow, not blue, but that
would take really bad caps... for example, if you fire studio strobes set to
1/32 of their power, they still output nominal (daylight) color, not cooler
(note that studio strobes charge the the caps to needed power, not discharge
partially in the manner of thyristor controlled flashes).

anything like its new condition - if he can get it done on a camera that age. Is
the lens still pristine, or has it got fungus? The gear might work, sure, but is it
'like new'? I doubt it.

New, schmew. If it is clean and works it makes photographs, cosmetics and age
aside.


IMHO it is unreasonable to expect that technology has stood still for a quarter
century so he can use his old flash on a new camera.

I disagree wherever a standard connector set is maintained within a genre of
products.

But for everything else, the shoe sync pin is in the same place and the
mechanics are the same. They should work without damaging the camera.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Colin D wrote:


Alan Browne wrote:


Colin D wrote:


me wrote:



When I found out that some flash units use very high trigger voltages,
several hundred volts in some cases, I was very displeased. Not that this
presents any problem for me right now but it might in the future. I
purchased my camera and flash in 1978 and both look and work like new.


snip

Lemme see if I got this right. You bought a flash unit twenty-six years ago,
and you're 'very displeased' that it might not work with a new camera? Well, I
think I have a similar problem. I got this high-performance 4-barrel
carburettor that came off my '78 TransAm, and the salesman tells me I can't fit
it onto my new petrol-injected 4WD Jeep. Boy, am I ****ed, or what! Those
pesky designers, they oughta be fired for making my old junk unusable in the
name of progress. Mumble, mumble ...

Fact is that some old strobes have pretty high trigger voltages (200 - 300V) and
some of the cameras we're seeing can't take it. I'm happy the poster put up
thse links ... I had lost the link from my bookmarks (and was too lazy to hunt
for them again).

Cheers,
Alan


Yes, that's reasonably common knowledge, but I think to *expect* such an old flash
to work on modern electronic cameras is a bit much. The same poster considers his

Don't you expect your tv to work whe n you plug it into the old wall socket?
Especially when cameras have a standard hotshoe, mechanically and electrically
the same for decades, it is reasonable to expect them to be comaptible. Same
for the sync cable.

camera and flash 'work like new'. The gear is 26 years old. Capacitors in the flash
gun will be at least partially dried out, reducing the capacitance and the GN, the
tube will undoubtedly have leaked gas over that period, resulting in changed

I have a 30 year old Sunpack. Little thing that I use for hairlights and such.
Works fine. The age of the flash is not so relevant and cap aging isn't as
universal as everyone likes to point out. A fellow I know is selling a pak
studio strobe set that is well over 20 years old. Works fine (has it dropped in
o/p, yeah, probably, but still delivers f/16 in the studio via umbrellas).

color-temperature output (probably gone blue). The camera will need a CLA to be

If the strobe is really bad I believe it will go yellow, not blue, but that
would take really bad caps... for example, if you fire studio strobes set to
1/32 of their power, they still output nominal (daylight) color, not cooler
(note that studio strobes charge the the caps to needed power, not discharge
partially in the manner of thyristor controlled flashes).

anything like its new condition - if he can get it done on a camera that age. Is
the lens still pristine, or has it got fungus? The gear might work, sure, but is it
'like new'? I doubt it.

New, schmew. If it is clean and works it makes photographs, cosmetics and age
aside.


IMHO it is unreasonable to expect that technology has stood still for a quarter
century so he can use his old flash on a new camera.

I disagree wherever a standard connector set is maintained within a genre of
products.

But for everything else, the shoe sync pin is in the same place and the
mechanics are the same. They should work without damaging the camera.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Michael A. Covington wrote:

I tend to think it would have been better engineering if they had changed
the connector type when they started requiring lower sync voltages. Maybe
modify the hot shoe in some clever way so that it will still work on an old
camera, but a newer (low-voltage-requiring) camera will only make contact
with the newer-style hot shoe.

Unfortunately this was not done.

Minolta redesigned the hot shoe completely. "Standard" flashes won't go on at all.

OTOH, Minolta PC sync terminals are rated up to 400V either polarity.

Cheers,
Alan



--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Michael A. Covington wrote:

I tend to think it would have been better engineering if they had changed
the connector type when they started requiring lower sync voltages. Maybe
modify the hot shoe in some clever way so that it will still work on an old
camera, but a newer (low-voltage-requiring) camera will only make contact
with the newer-style hot shoe.

Unfortunately this was not done.

Minolta redesigned the hot shoe completely. "Standard" flashes won't go on at all.

OTOH, Minolta PC sync terminals are rated up to 400V either polarity.

Cheers,
Alan



--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Michael A. Covington wrote:

I tend to think it would have been better engineering if they had changed
the connector type when they started requiring lower sync voltages. Maybe
modify the hot shoe in some clever way so that it will still work on an old
camera, but a newer (low-voltage-requiring) camera will only make contact
with the newer-style hot shoe.

Unfortunately this was not done.

Minolta redesigned the hot shoe completely. "Standard" flashes won't go on at all.

OTOH, Minolta PC sync terminals are rated up to 400V either polarity.

Cheers,
Alan



--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

Michael A. Covington wrote:

I tend to think it would have been better engineering if they had changed
the connector type when they started requiring lower sync voltages. Maybe
modify the hot shoe in some clever way so that it will still work on an old
camera, but a newer (low-voltage-requiring) camera will only make contact
with the newer-style hot shoe.

Unfortunately this was not done.

Minolta redesigned the hot shoe completely. "Standard" flashes won't go on at all.

OTOH, Minolta PC sync terminals are rated up to 400V either polarity.

Cheers,
Alan



--
-- rec.photo.equipment.35mm user resource:
-- http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.--

"Michael A. Covington" wrote in message
...
"me" wrote in message
...
When I found out that some flash units use very high trigger voltages,
several hundred volts in some cases, I was very displeased.

That's how electronic flash tubes work. Remember, good high-voltage
thyristors (for low-voltage electronic switching) did not exist when
electronic flash was first invented.

At that time they were using metal contacts. Metal contacts can withstand
almost any amount of voltage provided that the arcing that occurs when the
contacts open and close isn't so severe that it causes excessive pitting.
What I failed to say in my original post is that it isn't necessary to use
such high voltages to trigger the flash. A simple relay could act as a
switch to control the high voltage that powers the flash tube and thus
protect the camera's flash circuitry from any risk of damage.
I can understand why flash units made in the time when cameras used metal
contacts in their flash switch didn't do this, there wasn't any need. But
there is a definitely a need now.
What annoys me is that modern cameras manufacturers are unable (too cheap)
to add a simple relay to handle those flashes that still route the high
voltage through the camera to power the flash tube.
I don't blame flash manufacturers for what they did 20+ years ago. At that
time it made sense to do it that way. Why some of them are still using the
high voltage to switch the flash makes no sense at all.
Camera manufacturers have no excuse. They are aware of the problem and they
do nothing about it. This is unacceptable. All they have to do is add a
relay and the problem would be solved.

You can blame either the flash manufacturers or the camera body
manufacturers for this sorry state of affairs, flip a coin and make your
choice but in either case you should visit this site:
http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html for a list of flash
trigger
voltages before you use your flash with a new camera.

Or simply connect a voltmeter to the flash contacts while the flash is
turned on and ready but not on the camera.

"Michael A. Covington" wrote in message
...
"me" wrote in message
...
When I found out that some flash units use very high trigger voltages,
several hundred volts in some cases, I was very displeased.

That's how electronic flash tubes work. Remember, good high-voltage
thyristors (for low-voltage electronic switching) did not exist when
electronic flash was first invented.

At that time they were using metal contacts. Metal contacts can withstand
almost any amount of voltage provided that the arcing that occurs when the
contacts open and close isn't so severe that it causes excessive pitting.
What I failed to say in my original post is that it isn't necessary to use
such high voltages to trigger the flash. A simple relay could act as a
switch to control the high voltage that powers the flash tube and thus
protect the camera's flash circuitry from any risk of damage.
I can understand why flash units made in the time when cameras used metal
contacts in their flash switch didn't do this, there wasn't any need. But
there is a definitely a need now.
What annoys me is that modern cameras manufacturers are unable (too cheap)
to add a simple relay to handle those flashes that still route the high
voltage through the camera to power the flash tube.
I don't blame flash manufacturers for what they did 20+ years ago. At that
time it made sense to do it that way. Why some of them are still using the
high voltage to switch the flash makes no sense at all.
Camera manufacturers have no excuse. They are aware of the problem and they
do nothing about it. This is unacceptable. All they have to do is add a
relay and the problem would be solved.

You can blame either the flash manufacturers or the camera body
manufacturers for this sorry state of affairs, flip a coin and make your
choice but in either case you should visit this site:
http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html for a list of flash
trigger
voltages before you use your flash with a new camera.

Or simply connect a voltmeter to the flash contacts while the flash is
turned on and ready but not on the camera.

"Michael A. Covington" wrote in message
...
"me" wrote in message
...
When I found out that some flash units use very high trigger voltages,
several hundred volts in some cases, I was very displeased.

That's how electronic flash tubes work. Remember, good high-voltage
thyristors (for low-voltage electronic switching) did not exist when
electronic flash was first invented.

At that time they were using metal contacts. Metal contacts can withstand
almost any amount of voltage provided that the arcing that occurs when the
contacts open and close isn't so severe that it causes excessive pitting.
What I failed to say in my original post is that it isn't necessary to use
such high voltages to trigger the flash. A simple relay could act as a
switch to control the high voltage that powers the flash tube and thus
protect the camera's flash circuitry from any risk of damage.
I can understand why flash units made in the time when cameras used metal
contacts in their flash switch didn't do this, there wasn't any need. But
there is a definitely a need now.
What annoys me is that modern cameras manufacturers are unable (too cheap)
to add a simple relay to handle those flashes that still route the high
voltage through the camera to power the flash tube.
I don't blame flash manufacturers for what they did 20+ years ago. At that
time it made sense to do it that way. Why some of them are still using the
high voltage to switch the flash makes no sense at all.
Camera manufacturers have no excuse. They are aware of the problem and they
do nothing about it. This is unacceptable. All they have to do is add a
relay and the problem would be solved.

You can blame either the flash manufacturers or the camera body
manufacturers for this sorry state of affairs, flip a coin and make your
choice but in either case you should visit this site:
http://www.botzilla.com/photo/strobeVolts.html for a list of flash
trigger
voltages before you use your flash with a new camera.

Or simply connect a voltmeter to the flash contacts while the flash is
turned on and ready but not on the camera.