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Value of original transparencies? Please help!



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 19th 03, 10:59 PM
news-server.austin.rr.com
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Default Value of original transparencies? Please help!

Sounds like a tough situation if you dont want to make any one mad or damage
your reputation. Just document everything that you have done and continue
to do in your efforts to retain what is rightfully yours. Then try and find
a friend who is or knows a lawyer that will right up a quicky letter
politely requesting the expedited return of your property. Mail is
certified and return reciept. That would be the most tactful thing that you
can do. Hope some of this is helpful?

Warner in Texas
"mp" wrote in message
om...
I need help establishing a value for 36 slides for the purposes of
filing a small claims action. I've read several times that
professionals use a value of $1500 per original. But since I'm just
starting out, I'd never be able to justify that (have never sold a
transparency, have only done a few weddings). I was thinking more
like $100 per slide, but how do I justify this? Any help is greatly
appreciated.

Rather than post the situation here, here is a link that explains
what's happened. I've not received a response one week after sending
the letter.(http://www.photosig.com/go/forums/read?id=207982)

Also, any advice about how to word the letter that threatens small
claims court?

TIA
Mike



  #2  
Old August 19th 03, 11:15 PM
Red Clay
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Posts: n/a
Default

"mp" wrote in message
om...
I need help establishing a value for 36 slides for the purposes of
filing a small claims action. I've read several times that
professionals use a value of $1500 per original. But since I'm just
starting out, I'd never be able to justify that (have never sold a
transparency, have only done a few weddings). I was thinking more
like $100 per slide, but how do I justify this? Any help is greatly
appreciated.

Rather than post the situation here, here is a link that explains
what's happened. I've not received a response one week after sending
the letter.(http://www.photosig.com/go/forums/read?id=207982)

Also, any advice about how to word the letter that threatens small
claims court?

TIA
Mike



She's already showed you she's a slimebucket so don't get mad, get even.

Red


  #3  
Old August 22nd 03, 12:24 AM
mp
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks, everyone for the responses. I haven't heard anything from her
(I gave her a week to respond). In the next letter I write, I'm going
to explicitly mention the violation of my copyright and threaten small
claims court and/or pressing charges (very professionally, of course).
I fully expect I won't hear from her even after that, so I need to
figure out how much to sue for. The max in small claims is $5000.
So, $250 will be too high. In any case, does anyone have a reference
that I could cite in court that $1500 each is accepted in the
professional world? The judge won't just take my word for it. I need
a book, court case, etc. (I was thinking maybe a ASMP book might have
it-going to library later...) Also, help with the verbage for the
letter would be appreciated (such as what parts of Title 17 to quote).
Should I send her an invoice for this stuff, also? Anyone have any
examples?

Thanks again.
Mike

Al Denelsbeck wrote in message .6...
(mp) wrote in
om:

I need help establishing a value for 36 slides for the purposes of
filing a small claims action. I've read several times that
professionals use a value of $1500 per original. But since I'm just
starting out, I'd never be able to justify that (have never sold a
transparency, have only done a few weddings). I was thinking more
like $100 per slide, but how do I justify this? Any help is greatly
appreciated.


This is a tricky situation. Since you're not routinely selling and
therefore cannot provide any proof of what previous images have gone for,
you may get stuck with 'cost of materials', a routine fallback in the
courts. And this is the only amount any photolab is liable for if they
damage your film.

Pros put a value on their images, but this is on the delivery memo
for requested works that are to be returned, Most ask that the memo be
signed and returned promptly, and this occasionally does happen. But if you
send the images along with the memo, you've essentially given the client
the images without allowing them to accept or reject terms, and thus the
valuation is only if the courts decide to allow it, and they have no
particular reason to. If you've gotten the valuation signed off *before*
the images are handed over, ah, that's a different story.

You will, quite possibly, eat this one, as others on the forum have
said. And you stuck your neck out by not having signatures or agreements
and by handing over originals. However, this does not mean you cannot bluff
your way out of it, even by actually filing charges. The model has *her*
rep to consider too, and you'll find it's very easy to trash if you try.

Go for $250 an image. That's 1/4 to 1/6 what professionals typically
place a value at, high enough to mean a serious charge. This is your
livelihood, your time, your future. The letter should be polite, official,
and make no accusations of theft or bad character. This is strictly
business. And it's strictly business that, with no answer within 30 days of
the official letter (certified, return receipt), you refer the matter to an
attorney. Certified mail can be refused - this does not make the letter
ineffective. It can still be presented in court, unopened, as evidence of
your attempts to deal with this properly. And her refusal to accept the
letter will indicate to the court that she is trying to dodge the issue.

The court may not agree to the value, and this is a risk. You can
show that you, in good faith, recognized that professionals typically place
a much higher value, so the defendent got a freaking break your honor! But
definitely include in the letter, and in any case that you might actually
file, that time (so much per appearance, so continuations hurt) and court
fees are part of the settlement. You may get nothing for the photos except
their return, but the judge may allow the court fees to go through
untouched.

Being very businesslike, as if you deal with this all the time, works
much better than anything else, in my experience. Don't threaten, don't
call names, don't get emotional. Your letter isn't intended for her, it's
intended to show that you followed all the proper procedures in an effort
to deal with this privately. People tend to find the impersonal
notification of court action that much more serious.

Good luck! Hope it works out well,

- Al.

  #4  
Old August 22nd 03, 05:52 AM
Tom Pfeiffer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The value of your work as an artist isn't related to the value of other
artists work. You will need to be able to prove that the value you claim is
reasonable for *your* images, not someone else's. That means some history of
sales to establish their value.

The value is also going to be affected by your lack of a model release,
which means you don't have the right to sell the images anyway, so as a
previous poster noted, cost of materials may be the only value granted by
the court.

Tom P.

"mp" wrote in message
om...
Thanks, everyone for the responses. I haven't heard anything from her
(I gave her a week to respond). In the next letter I write, I'm going
to explicitly mention the violation of my copyright and threaten small
claims court and/or pressing charges (very professionally, of course).
I fully expect I won't hear from her even after that, so I need to
figure out how much to sue for. The max in small claims is $5000.
So, $250 will be too high. In any case, does anyone have a reference
that I could cite in court that $1500 each is accepted in the
professional world? The judge won't just take my word for it. I need
a book, court case, etc. (I was thinking maybe a ASMP book might have
it-going to library later...) Also, help with the verbage for the
letter would be appreciated (such as what parts of Title 17 to quote).
Should I send her an invoice for this stuff, also? Anyone have any
examples?

Thanks again.
Mike



  #6  
Old August 22nd 03, 03:45 PM
Randy Stewart
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"JR" wrote in message
ell.edu...
In article ,
says...
I need help establishing a value for 36 slides for the purposes of
filing a small claims action. I've read several times that
professionals use a value of $1500 per original. But since I'm just
starting out, I'd never be able to justify that (have never sold a
transparency, have only done a few weddings). I was thinking more
like $100 per slide, but how do I justify this? Any help is greatly
appreciated.

Rather than post the situation here, here is a link that explains
what's happened. I've not received a response one week after sending
the letter.(
http://www.photosig.com/go/forums/read?id=207982)

Also, any advice about how to word the letter that threatens small
claims court?

TIA
Mike


Advise:

Without a model release, you would not be able to establish any significant
commerical value for your slides. Small claims court generally can only
award money damages, not order return of your property, so that doesn't
solve your problem. Contrary to the advise of others, a "letter from an
attorney" will cost you more than this is all worth, and with a nut-job like
you ran into, it's not likely to have any impact. No attorney worth
anything would recommend the expense of a lawsuit over this, given the
subject and its value.

Taking some care to avoid the appearance of being obsessed over this matter
[which does appear to be the situation from your descriptions], you should
circulate the short version of your experience with this "model" among your
budding professional peers as a warning to avoid this person. At least you
will be doing a service and appear to adopt the attitude of a professional.
At most, the word will get back to her, conveying a message which might
cause your sildes to show up one day.

Since you have already adopted procedures which would avoid this happening
again, you should move on and otherwise forget it. In the world of
business, if all you ever get ripped off is a box of slides, you will be a
big winner.


  #7  
Old August 25th 03, 07:53 AM
Al Denelsbeck
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(mp) wrote in
om:

snip
In any case, does anyone have a reference
that I could cite in court that $1500 each is accepted in the
professional world? The judge won't just take my word for it. I need
a book, court case, etc. (I was thinking maybe a ASMP book might have
it-going to library later...)


ASMP is the place to look, try specifically under the name Michael D.
Remer (AMSP legal counsel) and the term 'valuation' or perhaps 'replacement
value'. Referring to one of my books "Pricing Photography: The Complete
Guide to Assignment and Stock Prices", this amount has been upheld numerous
times before, but may hinge on technical excellence, selective eye of the
photographer, prestige and earning level, uniqueness of subject matter,
established sales or use prices, group value of individual images, and
frequency of acceptance by users.

From what you've said, you might have a hard time establishing any of
these, but you can certainly make a case for the slides representing time
and effort lost, damage to portfolio, setbacks in professional advancement,
etc. You can potentially build your values around your business plans to do
this professionally, by demonstrating that you are seriously on the path to
doing this for regular income, and not just 'screwing around with a camera'
or pipe-dreaming. Since the photography of women is probably the most
abused area of photography, be ready to make it look good.

Remember that there's always multiple ways to say something ("spin").
Instead of saying anything like "She was my second model", point out
instead that this was the only model where you had used such-and-such
lighting or technique, and your portfolio suffers from the loss of the
variety and skills this represented. Also, you may want to establish that
you are unconcerned about the purported monetary value, you'll be happy
with the slides, but no one can be expected to take the matter seriously
without a value attached. Naturally, should it go to court, you will also
want at least the court fees covered, and you can be willing to settle for
those and the return of the undamaged slides (this is vaguely related to
haggling - aim high, and come down to your 'acceptable' level, and
everyone's happy).

Good luck with it!

- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to match domain below
Online photo gallery at
www.wading-in.net
  #8  
Old August 25th 03, 02:54 PM
Mark Eversoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In my opinion, your best bet is to file an action for the maximum amount
permitted in your jurisdiction for a small claims action. Hope she does
not appear in court. Absent her presence to defend her actions, you get
a default judgment which YOU. not the court, must enforce. That will
allow you to attach any assets of hers you can find as well as place
notice on her credit report. The chances of you getting paid are slim
but you already know that. You've learned a lesson here and now is the
time to move on with your career. I think anyone would respect a
photographer attempting to protect his work. Do less and you will be
stepped on again. The world is full of schmucks like her.

mp wrote:

I need help establishing a value for 36 slides for the purposes of
filing a small claims action. I've read several times that
professionals use a value of $1500 per original. But since I'm just
starting out, I'd never be able to justify that (have never sold a
transparency, have only done a few weddings). I was thinking more
like $100 per slide, but how do I justify this? Any help is greatly
appreciated.

Rather than post the situation here, here is a link that explains
what's happened. I've not received a response one week after sending
the letter.(http://www.photosig.com/go/forums/read?id=207982)

Also, any advice about how to word the letter that threatens small
claims court?

TIA
Mike



  #9  
Old August 25th 03, 08:01 PM
Tom Pfeiffer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

None of this matters if he doesn't have rights to the pictures. He DOES NOT
have a model release.

He needs to call her up and ask her to sign a model release so that he can
sue her.

Tom P.

"Al Denelsbeck" wrote in message
. 7...
(mp) wrote in
om:

snip
In any case, does anyone have a reference
that I could cite in court that $1500 each is accepted in the
professional world? The judge won't just take my word for it. I need
a book, court case, etc. (I was thinking maybe a ASMP book might have
it-going to library later...)


ASMP is the place to look, try specifically under the name Michael D.
Remer (AMSP legal counsel) and the term 'valuation' or perhaps

'replacement
value'. Referring to one of my books "Pricing Photography: The Complete
Guide to Assignment and Stock Prices", this amount has been upheld

numerous
times before, but may hinge on technical excellence, selective eye of the
photographer, prestige and earning level, uniqueness of subject matter,
established sales or use prices, group value of individual images, and
frequency of acceptance by users.

From what you've said, you might have a hard time establishing any of
these, but you can certainly make a case for the slides representing time
and effort lost, damage to portfolio, setbacks in professional

advancement,
etc. You can potentially build your values around your business plans to

do
this professionally, by demonstrating that you are seriously on the path

to
doing this for regular income, and not just 'screwing around with a

camera'
or pipe-dreaming. Since the photography of women is probably the most
abused area of photography, be ready to make it look good.

Remember that there's always multiple ways to say something ("spin").
Instead of saying anything like "She was my second model", point out
instead that this was the only model where you had used such-and-such
lighting or technique, and your portfolio suffers from the loss of the
variety and skills this represented. Also, you may want to establish that
you are unconcerned about the purported monetary value, you'll be happy
with the slides, but no one can be expected to take the matter seriously
without a value attached. Naturally, should it go to court, you will also
want at least the court fees covered, and you can be willing to settle for
those and the return of the undamaged slides (this is vaguely related to
haggling - aim high, and come down to your 'acceptable' level, and
everyone's happy).

Good luck with it!

- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to match domain below
Online photo gallery at
www.wading-in.net


  #10  
Old August 25th 03, 08:02 PM
Tom Pfeiffer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Now THAT is a good idea, the first in this thread.

Tom P.

"Mark Eversoll" wrote in message
...
In my opinion, your best bet is to file an action for the maximum amount
permitted in your jurisdiction for a small claims action. Hope she does
not appear in court. Absent her presence to defend her actions, you get
a default judgment which YOU. not the court, must enforce. That will
allow you to attach any assets of hers you can find as well as place
notice on her credit report. The chances of you getting paid are slim
but you already know that. You've learned a lesson here and now is the
time to move on with your career. I think anyone would respect a
photographer attempting to protect his work. Do less and you will be
stepped on again. The world is full of schmucks like her.



 




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