Tech Support?

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 12:59:48 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I am sure that the Lightning connector incorporates firmware which
detects which way round it has been inserted and routes the
connections to the pins accordingly. No USB specification says
anything about doing this kind of thing.

lightning is an adaptive connector that can redefine the purpose of the
various pins.

That's what I said, but apart from that you are squinking.

never heard of that word and what google shows for it does not make
sense given the context. obviously it's an insult of some sort.

I explained it to you the other day. Its an old term round Usenet.
'Squinking' = squirting a cloud of squid ink to obscure an issue.
It's your standard mode of argument.

it can be usb 2 and can even be usb 3 ...

But not of itself. It requires a variety of hardware to act as an
exterenal USB adaptor.

which is included, so it's a non-issue.

Squink. Whether or not its included is not the issue. The issue is
whether or not it's necessary and the answer is 'it is'.

... (which doesn't make sense for
idevices at this time, but it might in the future). it can be used for
audio or video too.

think of it as a superset of usb, hdmi and others.

I am sure you also know that Apple sell a Lightning to USB adaptor.

they sell a lightning-usb cable, and when connected to a usb host, the
ipad is a fully compliant usb peripheral.

Dead right, and without that adaptor it cannot connect to USB. The
Lightning port is NOT USB compliant in any sense of the term.

the physical port may not be a standard usb port, but that doesn't
change anything.

the ipad is still a usb device and always has been. that's what
matters.

It's also an HDMI and heaven knows what (literally).

http://theiphonewiki.com/wiki/Lightn...tal_AV_Adapter

* Lightning is adaptive.
* All 8 pins are used for signals, and all or most can be
switched to be used for power.
* The outer plug shell is used as ground reference and connected
to the device shell.
* At least one (probably at most two) of the pins is used for
detecting what sort of plug is plugged in.
* All plugs have to contain a controller/driver chip to implement
the “adaptive” thing.
* The device watches for a momentary short on all pins (by the
leading edge of the plug) to detect plug insertion/removal.
* The pins on the plug are deactivated until after the plug is
fully inserted, when a wake-up signal on one of the pins cues
the chip inside the plug. This avoids any shorting hazard
while the plug isn’t inside the connector.
* The controller/driver chip tells the device what type it is,
and for cases like the Lightning-to-USB cable whether a
charger (that sends power) or a device (that needs power) is
on the other end.
* The device can then switch the other pins between the SoC’s
data lines or the power circuitry, as needed in each case.
* Once everything is properly set up, the controller/driver chip
gets digital signals from the SoC and converts them – via
serial/parallel, ADC/DAC, differential drivers or whatever –
to whatever is needed by the interface on the other end of the
adapter or cable. It could even re-encode these signals to
some other format to use fewer wires, gain noise-immunity or
whatever, and re-decode them on the other end; it’s all
flexible. It could even convert to optical.

That doesn't sound like a USB device to any sane person. At the best,
with the aid of external hardware. it can emulate USB. It is not USB
compliant of itself.

and apple includes the usb cable. it's a non-issue.

they also sell a camera connection kit which gives the ipad limited usb
host functionality, again, compliant with the spec.

With an adaptor.

so what? it still does it.

On that basis, the Lightning port is NOT USB compliant, but it can be
made so with an external adaptor.

the ipad is a usb device and always has been a usb device. every single
ios device is a usb device.

So too is the iPad but only with the external adaptor.

the usb cable is included, so it's a non-issue.

it's really a simple concept.

Not too simple for you to try to argue your way around it.

i'm not the one who is arguing my way around anything. i keep telling
you what it is and you keep coming up with ridiculous inconsequential
details.

Like see above. I used to think that you knew all of this.

you're trying to prove that the ipad is not usb compliant because it
uses a more capable port that can act as a standard usb port along with
a whole lot more.

Only with an external adaptor.

meanwhile, the rest of the world happily plugs their ipad, iphone or
ipod touch into a usb port on a computer using the included usb cable
(or another that they bought), or they get a camera connection kit and
plug in their camera or card reader. it's *all* done using usb.

As is made clear in my quote above, none of these will work without
the use of the correct external adaptor.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 12:59:56 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

the mere fact that the ipad shows up in the usb device tree is proof
(and i doubt you know what that means).

Of course Peter wouldn't know what that means. He doesn't use a Mac &
he doesn't own an iPad.

one does not need to own a mac or an ipad to understand how usb works.

he doesn't know what it means because he's non-technical and won't
admit when he's in over his head.

This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

it might.

It doesn't help Peter when he's up against someone who is prepared to
bull**** their way through an argument.

i'm not bull****ting anything.

Nospam knows very well that what I said about the Lightning port not
being USB compliant was correct but you will never get him to admit
it.

this isn't about the *port*.

it's about whether an ipad is usb compliant, and it is. this is a fact,
which the above screen shot clearly proves.

What! The whole iPad?

You are daft.

you don't think apple is forging a vendor/device id, do you? the usb-if
does not take kindly to that. just ask palm.

No I don't. What gave you the idea I did?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 12:59:50 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

I'm afraid that doesn't deal with the point at issue which is whether
or not the Lightning port is USB compliant as it stands. The fact is
that is it not so compliant and requires an external adaptor to make
it so.

the issue is if the *device* is compliant, which it is.

The issue has always been whether or not the *port* is compliant and
it isn't.

just because the lightning port is more capable and better designed
than a microusb port doesn't change the fact that the ipad is not a usb
compliant device.

a microusb port couldn't do what is needed. apple had to make a better
one.

And a very clever one. It's a port which can emulate a large number of
connections if you use the appropriate external device.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 2013-10-04 11:23:32 -0700, nospam said:

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

You must not have ever driven towing a trailer. I've driven many
miles towing a boat and never been bothered by hills or curves.

tell that to those who jackknifed. even experienced tractor-trailer
drivers can jackknife.

and what hills? you live in florida.

In Florida speed bumps are considered hills.

You probably know this, but you don't jackknife taking a curve. You
jackknife because you brake hard and fast...even on a straight, flat
road.

and you probably know this, but you can't go as fast on a curve as on
straight roads, which means you need to brake prior to the curve,
sometimes by quite a bit. otherwise you'll have bigger problems than
just a jackknife.

you also may need to brake on a downgrade, which is why there are
runaway ramps.

Downgrade in Florida?
Curves in Florida?
Runaway truck ramps in Florida?

Try North bound I-5 over the Tejon Pass, better known as the "Grapevine".

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On 2013-10-04 17:37:17 -0700, Tony Cooper said:

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 11:40:39 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

That's what I said, but apart from that you are squinking.

never heard of that word and what google shows for it does not make
sense given the context. obviously it's an insult of some sort.

I explained it to you the other day. Its an old term round Usenet.
'Squinking' = squirting a cloud of squid ink to obscure an issue.
It's your standard mode of argument.

Maybe, but "squinking" could have also evolved from Quink ink. Or, a
combination of "squid" and "quink".

Us old guys, who first started writing in grade school with stick pens
dipped those pens in the inkwell on the desk, and that inkwell
contained Quink. Quink was a product of the Parker Pen Company.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ink_Bottle.jpg

Damn! I remember that stuff, if I remember correctly the ink bottle/jar
had an interior well so you wouldn't have to dip deeply into a bottle
with a low level. Somewhere I also have a Sheaffer pen with the snorkel
under the nib for filling.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 20:37:17 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 11:40:39 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

That's what I said, but apart from that you are squinking.

never heard of that word and what google shows for it does not make
sense given the context. obviously it's an insult of some sort.

I explained it to you the other day. Its an old term round Usenet.
'Squinking' = squirting a cloud of squid ink to obscure an issue.
It's your standard mode of argument.

Maybe, but "squinking" could have also evolved from Quink ink. Or, a
combination of "squid" and "quink".

Us old guys, who first started writing in grade school with stick pens
dipped those pens in the inkwell on the desk, and that inkwell
contained Quink. Quink was a product of the Parker Pen Company.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ink_Bottle.jpg

I've still got a bottle.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:55:25 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 14:58:38 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 20:37:17 -0400, Tony Cooper
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 11:40:39 +1300, Eric Stevens
wrote:

That's what I said, but apart from that you are squinking.

never heard of that word and what google shows for it does not make
sense given the context. obviously it's an insult of some sort.

I explained it to you the other day. Its an old term round Usenet.
'Squinking' = squirting a cloud of squid ink to obscure an issue.
It's your standard mode of argument.

Maybe, but "squinking" could have also evolved from Quink ink. Or, a
combination of "squid" and "quink".

Us old guys, who first started writing in grade school with stick pens
dipped those pens in the inkwell on the desk, and that inkwell
contained Quink. Quink was a product of the Parker Pen Company.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ink_Bottle.jpg

I've still got a bottle.

I knew you had bottle.

http://www.humble-smith.com/168_Purp...0647b_dark.jpg
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

who wants to have hard drives hanging off their mobile devices? it
makes the devices non-mobile. it's stupid.

S'funny. I have a hard drive and some stuff even larger hanging of my
iPad whenever I back it up, synchronise it etc.

no you don't.

what you might have is an ipad plugged into a computer's usb port
(since it supports usb), and the *computer* has a hard drive attached
to *it*. backups and syncing is done via software on the computer,
namely itunes.

but you don't need to do that. you can backup and sync *without*
tethering it to a computer.

apple added wifi syncing a couple of years ago because people didn't
want to plug it into a computer all the time, for the reason i gave.

they also added icloud backups which makes it even easier since you
don't need a computer or a hard drive at all (itunes has to be running
for wifi sync). it's all automatic, as it should be.

How do I run iTunes without a computer.

exactly my point.

you have it connected to a computer, not a hard drive.

iTunes is the subject.

no, the subject is whether an ipad is usb compliant or not.

don't try to change the subject.

I'm not changing the subject. I'm trying to get an answer to the
question just six lines above "How do I run I tunes without a
computer?"

you don't. that much should be obvious.

What's the range of the iPad's WiFi link.

depends on the wifi network.

Whatever it is I am still effectively tethered to the computer.

you aren't tethered when on wifi. tether means cable.

Running your own unique word meanings again?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethering

"Tethering refers to connecting one device to another. In the
context of mobile phones or Internet tablets, tethering allows
sharing the Internet connection of the phone or tablet with other
devices such as laptops. Connection of the phone or tablet with
other devices can be done over wireless LAN (Wi-Fi), over
Bluetooth or by physical connection using a cable, for example
through USB."

"If tethering is done over Wi-Fi, the feature may be branded as a
Mobile Hotspot."

this may come to you as surprise, but words can have more than one
meaning.

What! Tethering does not mean "connecting one device to another"? You
surprise me. What does it mean to you in the context of iPads and
computers?

tethering a device can mean two things, tethered to a computer via a
cable or tethered to a mobile hotspot acting as an internet gateway.

wifi-only ipads would need to do the latter, but any device can do the
former.

a camera that directly sends its output to a computer over a cable is
called tethered, and it uses a cable:

http://diyphotography.net/introduction-tethered-shooting
Usually, the camera and computer are connected by cable, hence
tethering.

in other words, my use of the word tether is correct, and you are once
again, arguing over nothing.

what you cite is an entirely different form of tethering, unrelated to
what is being discussed. i'm not talking about mobile hotspots and
using a phone as a gateway.

Neither am I.

I am referring to connecting one device to another.

as am i, thus the word tether.

i'm talking about having it attached to a computer via a cord which
can't be removed or whatever process happening on the computer will
fail. that is called being tethered.

Cords? That's old fashioned. Modern systems don't use cords.

that's right, they don't. even charging can be done wirelessly now.

however, wireless has not totally replaced cords. yet.

you are once again, nitpicking inconsequential details just to argue.

I'm trying to (hopelessly) point out to you the inconsistencies in
what you are saying.

there aren't any inconsistencies other than the ones you dream up by
nitpicking every word. that's why you are failing at it.

Come to think of it, I
have even more stuff hanging off it when I plug it into the wall of
my
house when I want to charge. You want to try walking around with a
house attached, especially when you are inside the house!

charging obviously needs to be tethered, but it can be done when the
ipad is *not* in use, such as overnight.

But I want to use my iPad at night!

then charge it during the day.

I didn't say 'only at night'.

I want to use my iPad anytime both night and day.

when do you sleep? do you sleep? that's when you charge it.

To late. It's gone flat before then.

you use an ipad 10+ hours a day, non-stop?

my ipad typically lasts a week. i certainly don't need to charge it
every day. i plug it in when i'm done with it if it's low enough to
matter, and it charges while i'm sleeping or out doing something else.

i don't even need to charge my phone every day and that sees a lot more
use.

the ipad will easily last more than a day in typical use (usually
several days), so there's rarely a need to charge it while using it
(although you can, of course).

the point is the battery lasts many days in normal use and you *will*
have to sleep at some point. charge it then.

ipads last well in excess of a day on battery in continuous use (which
means several days in typical use) so there's almost never a reason to
charge it while actually using it.

in other words, the lack of mobility while charging is a non-issue.

So how is that lack of mobility when charging is a non-issue but lack
of mobility when PeterN want's to do his thing is a BIG issue?

because he's not sleeping at the time.

But I may be awake when charging becomes necessary!

you might be. so what?

Then I'm tied to the wall of my house.

only for a brief time.

you do spend time indoors, do you not? maybe sitting on the couch
watching tv? plug it in then. or, as i said, plug it in and then go to
sleep.

it's not worth the bother to support. there are far more important
things to do than satisfy a couple of people who don't understand
mobile devices.

"Don't understand" = "Want's to do somethhing you don't want to do"

or more accurately, 'is trying to get it to do things for which it was
not designed and wondering why it isn't working.'

All it lacks is the software.

it doesn't matter what it lacks. it's not designed to do certain things
and trying to get it to do those things is not going to meet with much
success.

I'm sure that's nonsense.

based on what?

A quick walk down the aisle of an aircraft. Mind you, it was in a
hangar for service at the time.

then it doesn't count. it only qualifies while above 10k feet and over
land. didn't you know that?

next time, try reading apple's developer documentation.

All it requires is the right app and PeterN
can supply the necessary external hardware.

if you're so sure it can be done and so sure that there's a big market
for this particular feature, why don't you write such an app?

Because _I_ have no desire for such an app.

then why are you ranting about how important such an app is?

this may come to you as a surprise, but apple did not design the
ipad just for peter.

Or for you.

i never said it was designed for me. it's designed for the masses.

Some of whom would no doubt want to do what PeterN wants to do.

very, very few.

How do you know? Have you been flying again?

by paying attention to the industry and looking at analytics data.

What data. Do tell.

here's one, from mixpanel, an analytics company, showing what people
actually do with their tablets, both ipad and android:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/S6...soIZMveDe_5DT7
u9BK9I_UiSDdElSe9EaSRc64AnWJEfqlpEuey_k7245acwOiht 02Ql6C6mExh6hRgihh_g5h
4w_oOcTOnlt

You see this as a problem which you wish to avoid. Other people would
see it as an opportunity.

most people don't care. they realize what the ipad is good at and what
it's not good at and choose accordingly.

That's why so many apps have been written to do things which were not
built into the original device.

none of those can add features that are impossible to do.

What's impossible in what PeterN wants to do?

connecting two hard drives and a card reader to an ipad and then moving
photos between them.

Some enterprising person invented the towing hitch.

cars don't come with towing hitches.

Very astute of you to notice that.

in other words, a car is not a good choice for moving a piano, as i
said.

Maybe so, but I've done it.

not without adding equipment to the car, you didn't.

Quite true, but I've still done it.

i didn't say it was impossible. i said a car is not designed for the
task, and it isn't.

that means you have to add a hitch to the car, which also must be done
properly to not damage the car and not come off unexpectedly (i.e.,
have a mechanic do it).

Computers used to be like that. Now you can do almost anything of
which the device is capable just by writing a suitable 'app'.

you could always write an app for a computer, even decades ago.

But it's not possible to write a suitable one for the iPad today, so
you say.

there were plenty of things that were not possible for older computers
either.

everything has limitations.

Why can't what PeterN wants be done? What functionality is missing
from an iPad?

no functionality is missing from an ipad.

the ipad is not designed to do what he wants. other products are. no
big deal. that doesn't mean something is missing.

because the ipad doesn't do what he wants, he bought something else
that does, and from what he's said, it works. nothing wrong with that.

nobody ever said an ipad can do everything for everyone. nothing can.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I use a Wacom Cintiq, that has a fat cable coming out of its back that
in turn splits into a power plug, a video plug and... an USB plug. The
Cintiq doesn't have a USB *port* but is USB compliant.

there are also bus-powered hard drives with a dual cable to sap power
from two ports because one usb port can't source enough power. not only
is a dual cable not usb compliant, but neither is the hard drive since
it requires more power than usb can legitimately source. i don't see
anyone bitching about that.

Lots of devices (e.g. printers, scanners, external HDDs) require more
power than can be supplied by USB. Yet they use USB connections. Are
you really saying these devices are not USB compliant?

no, those are usually self-powered.

bus-powered usb hard drives do use more power than usb can provide,
which is why they sometimes include the dual head cables, and yes, that
means they are not 100% compliant. usb can source 500ma and the spin-up
current is more than that.

so if you're going to argue that an ipad is not usb compliant just
because it has a lightning port rather than a microusb port, despite
including a lightning-usb cable making it a non-issue, then you have to
agree that numerous other usb devices are also not compliant, namely
all usb bus-powered hard drives. why single out ipads?

since usb bus-powered drives are so common, usb ports can source more
power so you don't need the clumsy dual cable, but that actually makes
the usb port non-compliant. i don't see anyone bitching about that
either.

some cameras have a custom cable to go between its custom connector and
a computer's usb port. where's the bitching about that?

Who is bitching?

you've posted many times about how the ipad is not compliant because it
uses a more capable port than microusb.

and if you've ever seen usb 3.0 microusb ports, you'll be glad apple
came up with lightning. talk about a horrible plug. ugh.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

it can be usb 2 and can even be usb 3 ...

But not of itself. It requires a variety of hardware to act as an
exterenal USB adaptor.

which is included, so it's a non-issue.

Squink. Whether or not its included is not the issue. The issue is
whether or not it's necessary and the answer is 'it is'.

so what?

it does not make a compliant device non-compliant.

feel free to dig out a soldering iron and replace the lightning port
with a microusb port. now you have the 'correct' port on an ipad, and
without a warranty.

assuming you didn't **** it up in the process, it will work the same as
before. plug it into a computer's usb port and sync.

the physical characteristics of the port do not matter.

... (which doesn't make sense for
idevices at this time, but it might in the future). it can be used for
audio or video too.

think of it as a superset of usb, hdmi and others.

I am sure you also know that Apple sell a Lightning to USB adaptor.

they sell a lightning-usb cable, and when connected to a usb host, the
ipad is a fully compliant usb peripheral.

Dead right, and without that adaptor it cannot connect to USB. The
Lightning port is NOT USB compliant in any sense of the term.

the physical port may not be a standard usb port, but that doesn't
change anything.

the ipad is still a usb device and always has been. that's what
matters.

It's also an HDMI and heaven knows what (literally).

http://theiphonewiki.com/wiki/Lightn...tal_AV_Adapter

* Lightning is adaptive.
* All 8 pins are used for signals, and all or most can be
switched to be used for power.
* The outer plug shell is used as ground reference and connected
to the device shell.
* At least one (probably at most two) of the pins is used for
detecting what sort of plug is plugged in.
* All plugs have to contain a controller/driver chip to implement
the “adaptive” thing.
* The device watches for a momentary short on all pins (by the
leading edge of the plug) to detect plug insertion/removal.
* The pins on the plug are deactivated until after the plug is
fully inserted, when a wake-up signal on one of the pins cues
the chip inside the plug. This avoids any shorting hazard
while the plug isn’t inside the connector.
* The controller/driver chip tells the device what type it is,
and for cases like the Lightning-to-USB cable whether a
charger (that sends power) or a device (that needs power) is
on the other end.
* The device can then switch the other pins between the SoC’s
data lines or the power circuitry, as needed in each case.
* Once everything is properly set up, the controller/driver chip
gets digital signals from the SoC and converts them – via
serial/parallel, ADC/DAC, differential drivers or whatever –
to whatever is needed by the interface on the other end of the
adapter or cable. It could even re-encode these signals to
some other format to use fewer wires, gain noise-immunity or
whatever, and re-decode them on the other end; it’s all
flexible. It could even convert to optical.

That doesn't sound like a USB device to any sane person. At the best,
with the aid of external hardware. it can emulate USB. It is not USB
compliant of itself.

lightning does not emulate anything.

when you attach a usb cable, it uses two of the pins for usb data. when
you attach something else, it repurposes as many pins as needed for
whatever the something else is.

that means it's future-proof. whenever something new becomes popular,
lightning will be able to support it. the previous dock connector was
nowhere near as flexible and they kept repurposing pins.

you're trying to prove that the ipad is not usb compliant because it
uses a more capable port that can act as a standard usb port along with
a whole lot more.

Only with an external adaptor.

so what?

the ipad is usb compliant and can connect to any computer's usb port.

meanwhile, the rest of the world happily plugs their ipad, iphone or
ipod touch into a usb port on a computer using the included usb cable
(or another that they bought), or they get a camera connection kit and
plug in their camera or card reader. it's *all* done using usb.

As is made clear in my quote above, none of these will work without
the use of the correct external adaptor.

so what?

the ipad is a usb device, as the screen shot proved.