Question about tray ( for print )

Q1

last month, i've bought three 8x10 trays and about to do 8x10 print.
but i found 8x10 paper is nearly the same size with the bottom of 8x10
tray. so my question is, whether i have bought incorretly size of
tray? i have no idea how can i agitate the paper during the
processing. is there any tips a agitation method suits the case?

Q2

which side of the paper is the emusion side? those are ILFord
multi-grade B&W papers. one side is pure white ( say, side A ),
another side ( say, side B ) is a little pink. the whole paper curled
to side A, and side A is more dull than side B.

Q3

for a 8x10 tray, how much volumn of solution one at least need to do
the processing ? i am afraid 500mm is not enough.

thanks in advance.

-
woody

Steven Woody spake thus:

Q1

last month, i've bought three 8x10 trays and about to do 8x10 print.
but i found 8x10 paper is nearly the same size with the bottom of 8x10
tray. so my question is, whether i have bought incorretly size of
tray? i have no idea how can i agitate the paper during the
processing. is there any tips a agitation method suits the case?

Use the next size larger tray for whatever print size you're making.
8x10 prints, use 11x14 trays. Agitate by lifting the corners of the tray.

Q2

which side of the paper is the emusion side? those are ILFord
multi-grade B&W papers. one side is pure white ( say, side A ),
another side ( say, side B ) is a little pink. the whole paper curled
to side A, and side A is more dull than side B.

The emulsion side is the shinier side for all types of paper, including
RC. Easy to recognize it, even in safelight, once you've done it a
couple of times.


--
Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order
of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary
and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa.
This is an inviolable rule.

- Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site
(http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
.com...
Steven Woody spake thus:

Q1

last month, i've bought three 8x10 trays and about to do
8x10 print.
but i found 8x10 paper is nearly the same size with the
bottom of 8x10
tray. so my question is, whether i have bought
incorretly size of
tray? i have no idea how can i agitate the paper during
the
processing. is there any tips a agitation method suits
the case?

Use the next size larger tray for whatever print size
you're making. 8x10 prints, use 11x14 trays. Agitate by
lifting the corners of the tray.

Q2

which side of the paper is the emusion side? those are
ILFord
multi-grade B&W papers. one side is pure white ( say,
side A ),
another side ( say, side B ) is a little pink. the whole
paper curled
to side A, and side A is more dull than side B.

The emulsion side is the shinier side for all types of
paper, including RC. Easy to recognize it, even in
safelight, once you've done it a couple of times.


Be careful of this for matt surface papers. In some cases,
like the Agfa matt paper I still use, the back is actually
shinier. Sometimes you have to look at a scrap of the paper
in the light to find the front and then learn to identify it
by feel.
For fiber paper the texture of the back is usually
obvious. Curling of fresh stock is not always a clue, some
papers curl toward the emulsion and some toward the backing
although the emulsion side curl is more common.


As to amount, one can get away with only 16oz (about
500ml) in an 8x10 tray but a full liter or quart makes life
easier. A liter is minimum for 11x14 trays.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

David Nebenzahl wrote:
Steven Woody spake thus:

Q1

last month, i've bought three 8x10 trays and about to do 8x10 print.
but i found 8x10 paper is nearly the same size with the bottom of 8x10
tray. so my question is, whether i have bought incorretly size of
tray? i have no idea how can i agitate the paper during the
processing. is there any tips a agitation method suits the case?

Use the next size larger tray for whatever print size you're making.
8x10 prints, use 11x14 trays. Agitate by lifting the corners of the tray.

oh... bad news :-( but thanks for tell me that. for agitation, i have
a question: by saying lifting the corner of the tray, did you mean what
the agitaion do is just agitate the solution not the paper itself ?

and, the next size tray in local market here i can find is 12x16.
because my jug gets size up to 1000ml, so i want to know, whether 1L
volumn of solution is safe enough for this this of tray?


Q2

which side of the paper is the emusion side? those are ILFord
multi-grade B&W papers. one side is pure white ( say, side A ),
another side ( say, side B ) is a little pink. the whole paper curled
to side A, and side A is more dull than side B.

The emulsion side is the shinier side for all types of paper, including
RC. Easy to recognize it, even in safelight, once you've done it a
couple of times.

thanks, i believe you. what confuses me is a book which say, RC paper
always curled to its emulsion side. but in this case, it obvious that
the shinier ( emulsion ) side curled to the dull side.



--
Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order
of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary
and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa.
This is an inviolable rule.

- Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site
(http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

Steven Woody spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Steven Woody spake thus:

Q1

last month, i've bought three 8x10 trays and about to do 8x10 print.
but i found 8x10 paper is nearly the same size with the bottom of 8x10
tray. so my question is, whether i have bought incorretly size of
tray? i have no idea how can i agitate the paper during the
processing. is there any tips a agitation method suits the case?

Use the next size larger tray for whatever print size you're making.
8x10 prints, use 11x14 trays. Agitate by lifting the corners of the tray.

oh... bad news :-( but thanks for tell me that. for agitation, i have
a question: by saying lifting the corner of the tray, did you mean what
the agitaion do is just agitate the solution not the paper itself ?

What's the problem? Yes, you agitate the solution; that moves new
solution to the surface of the print. Not rocket science here.

and, the next size tray in local market here i can find is 12x16.
because my jug gets size up to 1000ml, so i want to know, whether 1L
volumn of solution is safe enough for this this of tray?

Instead of worrying about it, why don't you just buy the damn tray, pour
some water in it, then measure how much water is there?


--
Any system of knowledge that is capable of listing films in order
of use of the word "****" is incapable of writing a good summary
and analysis of the Philippine-American War. And vice-versa.
This is an inviolable rule.

- Matthew White, referring to Wikipedia on his WikiWatch site
(http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm)

David Nebenzahl wrote:


What's the problem? Yes, you agitate the solution; that moves new
solution to the surface of the print. Not rocket science here.


not a problem, just some book illustrates the the agitation means move
the paper back and forth in the solution, not exactly same as your
described.

but i'd rather use your method, if safe enought, it's easier than what
the book illustrated.

now this leads me to a thinking: if i only need to agitate the solution
rather the paper, so i think i can still use the 8x10 tray for 8x10
paper. because though moving of a 8x10 paper in a 8x10 tray is nearly
impossible, but moving of solution only is not so hard, is it?. you
know, i don't want to throw away my tray. so i wanna here more
suggestion about the problem from you and other experts. thanks!


Instead of worrying about it, why don't you just buy the damn tray, pour
some water in it, then measure how much water is there?


yes. i can do it. but you know by pouring water into the tray, i only
get the height of the water, and i am not so sure how much of the
height i really need to make the procces safe enought.

Steven Woody wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:

What's the problem? Yes, you agitate the solution; that moves new
solution to the surface of the print. Not rocket science here.


not a problem, just some book illustrates the the agitation means move
the paper back and forth in the solution, not exactly same as your
described.

but i'd rather use your method, if safe enought, it's easier than what
the book illustrated.

now this leads me to a thinking: if i only need to agitate the solution
rather the paper, so i think i can still use the 8x10 tray for 8x10
paper. because though moving of a 8x10 paper in a 8x10 tray is nearly
impossible, but moving of solution only is not so hard, is it?. you
know, i don't want to throw away my tray. so i wanna here more
suggestion about the problem from you and other experts. thanks!

Instead of worrying about it, why don't you just buy the damn tray, pour
some water in it, then measure how much water is there?


yes. i can do it. but you know by pouring water into the tray, i only
get the height of the water, and i am not so sure how much of the
height i really need to make the procces safe enought.

I use Calumet "11x14" stainless steel trays for both 8x10 and 11x14 prints.
These trays are oversize and are 12"x15" on the bottom and almst 13"x16" at
the top. I use 2 litre of solution in them. For RC paper, that lies more
flat, I might get away with a little less solution, but I never bother. 2
litre is enough if you are careful.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 07:10:01 up 60 days, 20:40, 5 users, load average: 4.28, 4.18, 4.08

In article .com,
"Steven Woody" wrote:

Q1

last month, i've bought three 8x10 trays and about to do 8x10 print.
but i found 8x10 paper is nearly the same size with the bottom of 8x10
tray. so my question is, whether i have bought incorretly size of
tray? i have no idea how can i agitate the paper during the
processing. is there any tips a agitation method suits the case?


11x14 trays are better for 8x10 paper- I like 8x10 trays for sheet film
up to 8x10.


Paper face down hold one edge with tongs scooting the paper back and
forth for the first 15 seconds-flip paper push the sheet under chemistry
and rock the tray in all directions (4).


Q2

which side of the paper is the emusion side? those are ILFord
multi-grade B&W papers. one side is pure white ( say, side A ),
another side ( say, side B ) is a little pink. the whole paper curled
to side A, and side A is more dull than side B.

The textured side is the emulsion, the duller feeling side is the back.
sometimes in safelight you can see the emulsion side rather clearly. Or
just hold one sheet out in room light for a reference,...better still
process an unexposed sheet then use it for reference and composing in
your easel as it will be white and a good way to see the image in the
easel.


Q3

for a 8x10 tray, how much volumn of solution one at least need to do
the processing ? i am afraid 500mm is not enough.

I seldom mix less than a liter of paper developer at a time & thats
about as much as you can put into an 8x10 tray.
--
The sometimes insomniac.

www.gregblankphoto.com

Dnia 9 Jun 2006 23:47:13 -0700, Steven Woody napisa³:

oh... bad news :-( but thanks for tell me that. for agitation, i have
a question: by saying lifting the corner of the tray, did you mean what
the agitaion do is just agitate the solution not the paper itself ?

You do the same while developing negatives in tank - you agitate
whole tank.

and, the next size tray in local market here i can find is 12x16.
because my jug gets size up to 1000ml, so i want to know, whether 1L
volumn of solution is safe enough for this this of tray?

I was learned to have 1cm over paper - so solution has enought place to
move (for agitation). You should use in 30x40cm minimum ~1500ml
- would be more comfortable.

BTW you can use also your current tray as trough - and roll paper thought
to get it in contact with solution. This is good enough if you do big
prints only from time to time and don't want to buy big trays.

Greetings
Henry

Woody -

My answers are not absolute - different folks do things different ways.


last month, i've bought three 8x10 trays and about to do 8x10 print.
but i found 8x10 paper is nearly the same size with the bottom of 8x10
tray. so my question is, whether i have bought incorretly size of
tray? i have no idea how can i agitate the paper during the
processing. is there any tips a agitation method suits the case?

In general, the ideal tray is one standard size larger than the print you
are making - so for 8x10 prints, you would want 11x14 trays.
Practically, however, that isn't always possible.

There are two issues with same-size trays. The first is agitation, and
the second is how to remove the processed print from the tray. The
answer to the second question is that you have to work at it and be
careful to not wrinkle the corner of the print when to lift it out (with
either tongs or your fingers). Agitation is relatively simple - just
rock the tray. Actually, agitation by rocking the tray is probably the
best approach regardless of the size of the print.

Incidentally, I always start the development process with the print face
down. Then after 15s or so, I flip it over to finish development. The
reason for this is that the paper does tend to curl toward the emulsion
side, but once the emulsion has absorbed developer, the paper flattens
out. Starting face down means and gently rubbing the rubber-tipped tongs
on the back of the print keeps it submirged until it flattens and can be
flipped over.

which side of the paper is the emusion side? those are ILFord
multi-grade B&W papers. one side is pure white ( say, side A ),
another side ( say, side B ) is a little pink. the whole paper curled
to side A, and side A is more dull than side B.

You can't distinguish the difference in color under safelight, so you
have to work by feel. With glossy paper, the face is noticeably smoother
than the back. Also, the curl tends to be concave on the face.

Textured papers are more of a challenge, and matt papers are the worst to
deal with. I have been using some old East German ORWO matt paper for
hand coloring where it is not possible to distinguish the face from the
rear by feel. What I have found is that if I gently rub my finger across
the paper, the sound created on the face is distinctly louder than the
sound generated by rubbing the back of the paper. But that's something I
had to learn the hard way - by experimenting with a sacrificial sheet of
paper.

for a 8x10 tray, how much volumn of solution one at least need to do
the processing ? i am afraid 500mm is not enough.

I generally use 11x14 trays for a general printing session. I use liquid
concentrates of chemicals - either Ilford or Sprint - that mix 1:9 in
water to make working solutions. I usually mix up 30 oz of working
solution for an 11x14 tray - and find that's quite adequate to cover a
print.

The issue then is whether that is enough chemical for a full working
session, and that is really determined by how long you intend to work and
how many prints you try to process in that time. I find that with the
way I work, I exhaust faster than the chemicals. That is, I will
generally print for about 3-4 hours at a time, producing no more than 24
11x14 prints (or equivalent of smaller size) - with that number limited
by the amount of drying screen area that I have to work with. Obviously,
there are also some prints that don't get to drying screens. The most
important accessory in a darkroom is a good trash can!

I prefer to use indicator stop because it changes color when it becomes
exhausted, and if the stop is exhausted, it's a good bet that the
developer is also. For this to be a reliable test, however, you need to
minimize the carryover of developer into the stop by draining prints for
10s or so at the end of the development step.

Louie