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Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 19th 15, 06:38 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
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Posts: 24,165
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

In article ,
Sandman wrote:


My claim is that if one person is more skilled at a given task than another,
it
is because he has practiced it more, which in turn is a result from a more
eager
interest in said task. Not because he has a "born" ability to paint
masterpieces
or a "born" ability to play the piano.


bull****. some people have natural talents and others do not and it has
absolutely nothing to do with practice.

if it did, there would be more einsteins, picassos, pavarottis and
ansel adams.

also, fix the line length on your newsreader. it's much too long and
causes wrapping issues.

As I said, some people are actually different, savants and autistic people.
They
are quite literally wired differently than other people which may lead to
them
being able to use their brain in a way a "normal" person can not. That, of
course, can lead to perceived skill. I.e. someone that can remember thousands
of
decimals of pi but can't get properly dressed. But that's neither skill nor
talent, that's just a brain that works in a very unusual way, leading to the
person being able to do that most can not.


you're contradicting yourself.

if it was just practice then anyone could memorize pi to thousands of
digits or any other so called skill.

For normal people, talent does not exist, only skill. Learned skill.


bull****. complete bull****.
  #22  
Old May 19th 15, 06:44 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
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Posts: 5,467
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

In article , Mayayana wrote:

Mozart composing as a young child.... must we assume he had a nanny
who forced him to practice piano 8 hours per day from the age of 3
months in order to fit your theory?


Of course not. Since we don't know the details of Mozarts exposure to his
fathers work, it's hard to make any actual conclusions. His sister got piano
lessons from his father when Mozart was three years old and we know that Mozart
learned simultaneously, and at a greater speed than his sister (= greater
interest).

When Mozart was 8 (interestingly, five years later. Rings a bell?), he was
"tested" with a complicated composition.

Of course, we don't know if he "excelled" at it, the testers says he played it
in a "masterly level", which certainly suggests it, but he was only 8 and
someone testing him could quite possibly just be expressing astonishment of his
level versus his age.

But looking at the recorded history of Mozart, it is clear that he poured a
*lot* of time into playing when really young. That time amounts to training. he
didn't sit down at the piano at age 3 and compose a five piece opera.

DaVinci's genius in drawing, painting and engineering.... He just
happened to be "interested" in those things?


Of course.

And where did that "interest" come from? If it struck
him then why aren't at least 1 in 100 people a Da Vinci?


Because pouring that amount of time into an interest isn't feasible for a lot
of people that have to pay bills, raise kids, etc etc. I'm sure you're aware of
the fact that a lot of great artists lived their entire lives as really really
poor people, where they had to sacrifice a *lot* to follow their interest.

And you're not interested in the question of Art?


Not as it relates to this subject, no.

To my mind that's far more interesting than skill


Ok...

yet you didn't address that point
at all.


Since it has nothing to do with "Photographic ability", really. Or if it does,
it was poorly expressed by Rich, the OP.

If someone practices photography for years and develops an
ability to take exactly the picture they want in nearly all cases,
yet those pictures don't resonate with viewers, what's the value of
their expertise?


Ask them, not me. Not everyone values their efforts by the judgement of
viewers.

The original question was about "good photographic
ability". Whether or not people articulate their thoughts about Art,
I think we all assume that art plays a part in good photography.


Not necessarily, but I suppose it could be interpreted that way. My comments
have concerned the "ability" and "skill" part only.

But I'm not surprised you didn't address it. Artfulness is something
that can't be measured with scientific instruments and can't be
taught in terms of practicing techniques. It's a wrench in the works
of your theory.


I have not expressed any "theory" of mine here.

--
Sandman
  #23  
Old May 19th 15, 07:40 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mayayana
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Posts: 1,514
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

| BTW: One of the most inspiring afternoons I spen, was when I was given a
| personal tour of Armand Hammer's office. I spent a lot of time viewing
| his original Da Vinci sketches,

You seem to have some interesting experience
in the art field. Personally I've never really got
Picasso (discussed in a lower post) but I do like
his definition of art that you found.


  #24  
Old May 19th 15, 08:10 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
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Posts: 16,487
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

On May 19, 2015, Mayayana wrote
(in ):

BTW: One of the most inspiring afternoons I spen, was when I was given a
personal tour of Armand Hammer's office. I spent a lot of time viewing
his original Da Vinci sketches,


You seem to have some interesting experience
in the art field. Personally I've never really got
Picasso (discussed in a lower post) but I do like
his definition of art that you found.


Just for you, here is a Picasso I shot at the Munson-Williams-Procter
Institute in Utica, NY. Interesting place to visit.
http://adobe.ly/1JXRJSJ


--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #25  
Old May 19th 15, 09:56 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,514
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

| Just for you, here is a Picasso I shot at the Munson-Williams-Procter
| Institute in Utica, NY. Interesting place to visit.
| http://adobe.ly/1JXRJSJ
|

It turns out the real link is he
https://assets.adobe.com/link/1a9456...7-362d6ce3b560
Why would you shorten that?

In any case, thanks, but I see nothing on that
page at all. It's almost entirely obfuscated script.
I avoid allowing script in general, especially avoiding
obfuscated script, and wouldn't allow either to
run on Adobe's site.
It could take days to decipher exactly what the
script is doing and what other sites it's contacting,
if that's even possible. And all that just to display
an image!


  #26  
Old May 19th 15, 10:13 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

On May 19, 2015, Mayayana wrote
(in ):

Just for you, here is a Picasso I shot at the Munson-Williams-Procter
Institute in Utica, NY. Interesting place to visit.
http://adobe.ly/1JXRJSJ


It turns out the real link is he
https://assets.adobe.com/link/1a9456...7-362d6ce3b560
Why would you shorten that?


I didn’t shorten it Adobe provides the shortened link for public sharing by
default. There is no long url option.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_166.jpg

In any case, thanks, but I see nothing on that
page at all.


That is your problem, other folks don’t seem to have an issue.

It's almost entirely obfuscated script.


I have never seen that. I have no idea of what you are doing to provoke that
sort of failure.

I avoid allowing script in general, especially avoiding
obfuscated script, and wouldn't allow either to
run on Adobe's site.


Then don’t bother. I certainly am not creating any odd script to sabotage
your system.

It could take days to decipher exactly what the
script is doing and what other sites it's contacting,
if that's even possible. And all that just to display
an image!


That is what happens when you use MS Outlook Express as a Usenet client, it
isn’t. As to whatever else you are doing to prevent that link opening in an
internet browser I have no idea.

I don’t believe the other Windows users in this room, such as PeterN, Eric
Stevens, or Tony have a problem.



--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #27  
Old May 19th 15, 10:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

On May 19, 2015, Savageduck wrote
(in news.com):

On May 19, 2015, Mayayana wrote
(in ):

Just for you, here is a Picasso I shot at the Munson-Williams-Procter
Institute in Utica, NY. Interesting place to visit.
http://adobe.ly/1JXRJSJ


It turns out the real link is he
https://assets.adobe.com/link/1a9456...7-362d6ce3b560
Why would you shorten that?


I didn’t shorten it Adobe provides the shortened link for public sharing by
default. There is no long url option.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_166.jpg


Let me fix that

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...enshot_166.jpg






In any case, thanks, but I see nothing on that
page at all.


That is your problem, other folks don’t seem to have an issue.

It's almost entirely obfuscated script.


I have never seen that. I have no idea of what you are doing to provoke that
sort of failure.

I avoid allowing script in general, especially avoiding
obfuscated script, and wouldn't allow either to
run on Adobe's site.


Then don’t bother. I certainly am not creating any odd script to sabotage
your system.

It could take days to decipher exactly what the
script is doing and what other sites it's contacting,
if that's even possible. And all that just to display
an image!


That is what happens when you use MS Outlook Express as a Usenet client, it
isn’t. As to whatever else you are doing to prevent that link opening in an
internet browser I have no idea.

I don’t believe the other Windows users in this room, such as PeterN, Eric
Stevens, or Tony have a problem.




--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #28  
Old May 19th 15, 10:28 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,467
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

In article , Giff wrote:

Sandman:
Like who?


Plenty, sorry I can't give you an example of someone that we both
know.


Maybe you can give me examples of people that you know of that have spent an
almost identical amount of time practicing a specific skill yet are not
comparable in skill level? Or are you just in reference to anecdotal references?

Giff:
How do you explain that?


Sandman:
It's either lack of interest or lack of time. Either they aren't
practicing the same amount of time or they are, but they're not as
interested as the guy who ended up better skilled at it.


You sound so certain.


I feel pretty certain, thanks.

Do you have scientific studies backing up your
assertions?


Of course, A good starting point is the studies by ‎Anders Ericsson, specifically
"The Making of an Expert" from 2007 or "Giftedness and evidence for reproducibly
superior performance" from the same year.

Probably not, also because such an experiment would be really
difficult to perform. I guess we could say that this is your
opinion, and that I have a different one.


It's not my opinion only. There are many studies done in this area, and yes -
they are psychology studies so they hardly result in cold hard facts, but you can
draw reasonable conclusions from them.

Also, it's my personal experience. I am an "artist" in the meaning that I paint,
draw, take photos and much more creative work. I obviously wouldn't say I "excel"
at anything of the aforementioned, but I know I'm better than your normal Joe at
most of it.

I also know that the reason I don't excel in it is because I haven't done it
enough, not because I'm not "talented" enough or because I wasn't "born" with it.

All of the creative things I do are pursued interests, things I enjoy doing into
which I have invested time to be better at it. Probably not *enough* time to
"excel" at it, of course, but being somewhere between "unskilled" and "excelling"
at it means that I can discern what got me from point A to point B, and it wasn't
some god-given "talent" in my genes, it was countless hours sitting with a pen
and paper or a brush, and everything looked like **** from the start, but it
progressively got better.

The point is, the reason I'm not a better painter is not because I'e reached some
supposed "talent threshold", it's 100% due to me not having or not spending
enough time to hone the skills I do have.

--
Sandman
  #29  
Old May 19th 15, 10:30 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,467
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

In article , nospam wrote:

Sandman:
My claim is that if one person is more skilled at a given task
than another, it is because he has practiced it more, which in
turn is a result from a more eager interest in said task. Not
because he has a "born" ability to paint masterpieces or a "born"
ability to play the piano.


bull****. some people have natural talents and others do not and it
has absolutely nothing to do with practice.


Of course it does.

if it did, there would be more einsteins, picassos, pavarottis and
ansel adams.


And there are.

Sandman:
As I said, some people are actually different, savants and
autistic people. They are quite literally wired differently than
other people which may lead to them being able to use their brain
in a way a "normal" person can not. That, of course, can lead to
perceived skill. I.e. someone that can remember thousands of
decimals of pi but can't get properly dressed. But that's neither
skill nor talent, that's just a brain that works in a very
unusual way, leading to the person being able to do that most can
not.


you're contradicting yourself.


if it was just practice then anyone could memorize pi to thousands
of digits or any other so called skill.


No, I was making a difference between practiced skill and an unusual mind. I.e.
some of the things autistic people can do can't be practiced by a "normal"
person.

Sandman:
For normal people, talent does not exist, only skill. Learned
skill.


bull****. complete bull****.


Thanks for your opinion. You always manage to provide it so eloquently.


--
Sandman
  #30  
Old May 19th 15, 10:39 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Bill W
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,692
Default Can good photographic ability be taught, or is it in-born?

On Tue, 19 May 2015 14:13:33 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On May 19, 2015, Mayayana wrote
(in ):

Just for you, here is a Picasso I shot at the Munson-Williams-Procter
Institute in Utica, NY. Interesting place to visit.
http://adobe.ly/1JXRJSJ


It turns out the real link is he
https://assets.adobe.com/link/1a9456...7-362d6ce3b560
Why would you shorten that?


I didn’t shorten it Adobe provides the shortened link for public sharing by
default. There is no long url option.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_166.jpg

In any case, thanks, but I see nothing on that
page at all.


That is your problem, other folks don’t seem to have an issue.

It's almost entirely obfuscated script.


I have never seen that. I have no idea of what you are doing to provoke that
sort of failure.

I avoid allowing script in general, especially avoiding
obfuscated script, and wouldn't allow either to
run on Adobe's site.


Then don’t bother. I certainly am not creating any odd script to sabotage
your system.

It could take days to decipher exactly what the
script is doing and what other sites it's contacting,
if that's even possible. And all that just to display
an image!


That is what happens when you use MS Outlook Express as a Usenet client, it
isn’t. As to whatever else you are doing to prevent that link opening in an
internet browser I have no idea.

I don’t believe the other Windows users in this room, such as PeterN, Eric
Stevens, or Tony have a problem.


I see a photo.
 




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