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Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.



 
 
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  #21  
Old May 7th 15, 06:14 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_6_]
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Posts: 4,254
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

On 5/7/2015 11:55 AM, John McWilliams wrote:
On 5/7/15 PDT 2:13 AM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 07 May 2015 02:36:56 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

You take a wider shot and then crop. Photoshop can help you fix
perspective
differences as well, but the closer you are to the same spot when
you take
the pic, the better.

You can't change the perspective in post processing.

https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/perspective-warp.html
Photoshop lets you easily adjust perspective in images. This feature
is particularly useful for images having straight lines and flat
surfaces‹for example, architectural images and images of buildings.
You can also use this feature to composite objects having different
perspectives in a single image.


My experience is that this a faux change in perspective. I have tried
this on a nuber of images and found that it introduces a number of
visible distortions. DxO is noticeably better but still is not
perfect. Moral: you have to place the modern camera in the same
position as the original. Afterall it's sight lines which determine
perspective.


The best way is to determine the spot from which the original was shot,
and the focal length and aperture of the lens used at the time, and
duplicate it. Everything else is a fudge- and sometimes confection is
needed.


That would be sweet.



--
PeterN
  #22  
Old May 7th 15, 06:20 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_6_]
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Posts: 4,254
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

On 5/7/2015 10:31 AM, MB wrote:
On 07/05/2015 14:41, Whiskers wrote:
On 2015-05-07, Peter Jason wrote:
I have some old photos of my locality going back about 70 years.

I want to compare these old scenes with their modern equivalents.

How does one position a camera (and lens) to match the ancient scenes
so that the old & current images are superimposable (or nearly so).


Look for landmarks that still exist, judge from the old pictures how
they align with each other, and using maps and moving yourself about in
the actual landscape refine your first guesses until you find yourself
in the one position which matches the alignment of things in the old
picture.

Don't be too surprised if you find the old photos were taken from a
point that is no longer accessible, or even there - such as the roof of
a building since demolished, or the roof of a car since driven away.

Take note of local history. Buildings and even hills can be moved, but
that usually leaves some trace in the gossip of locals.

Some old photos are composites, with different elements taken from
photos shot from different places and at different times. Clashing
shadows and weird perspectives might reveal those.




As has been suggested, the picture will quite possible have been taken
on a plate camera where angle of the lens can be changed to adjust
verticals. There are cameras that will do this and modern software will
allow some correction.

I tend to often take very wide shots with large expanses of space in the
foreground and then crop down.

I have taken a few showing a 'then and now' view, they are not perfectly
aligned but near enough to show the changes.

http://www.mbriscoe.me.uk/page273a.html


You are correct. If the purpose is to show the change, there is no need
for precision alignment.


One of Murphy's Laws probably says that you can guarantee that something
will have been built blocking the view though!


Murphy is alive and well.



--
PeterN
  #23  
Old May 7th 15, 11:36 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Peter Jason
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Posts: 288
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

On Thu, 07 May 2015 13:18:24 +1000, Peter Jason wrote:

I have some old photos of my locality going back about 70 years.

I want to compare these old scenes with their modern equivalents.

How does one position a camera (and lens) to match the ancient scenes
so that the old & current images are superimposable (or nearly so).

Peter


Many thanks for the replies.

I thought there might be some way to contrive some geometrical
'development' from a blowup of the ancient photo, and thereby arrive
at a location and the lens property. VIS:
http://www.oocities.org/net_geometry...ron_angles.jpg
http://www.sbebuilders.com/tools/geo...ne-Surface.jpg
http://www.sbebuilders.com/tools/geometry/tangent.jpg
  #24  
Old May 7th 15, 11:50 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
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Posts: 13,611
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

On Thu, 07 May 2015 08:55:50 -0700, John McWilliams
wrote:

On 5/7/15 PDT 2:13 AM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 07 May 2015 02:36:56 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

You take a wider shot and then crop. Photoshop can help you fix perspective
differences as well, but the closer you are to the same spot when you take
the pic, the better.

You can't change the perspective in post processing.

https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/perspective-warp.html
Photoshop lets you easily adjust perspective in images. This feature
is particularly useful for images having straight lines and flat
surfaces‹for example, architectural images and images of buildings.
You can also use this feature to composite objects having different
perspectives in a single image.


My experience is that this a faux change in perspective. I have tried
this on a nuber of images and found that it introduces a number of
visible distortions. DxO is noticeably better but still is not
perfect. Moral: you have to place the modern camera in the same
position as the original. Afterall it's sight lines which determine
perspective.


The best way is to determine the spot from which the original was shot,
and the focal length and aperture of the lens used at the time, and
duplicate it. Everything else is a fudge- and sometimes confection is
needed.


Focal length doesn't affect perspective. All it does is affect field
of view.

Was there a more or less standard lens and preferred focal length in the
1940's? Were they Brownie shots or large format?

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #25  
Old May 8th 15, 12:00 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
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Posts: 13,611
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

On Thu, 07 May 2015 01:40:37 -0800, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

Sandman wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Peter Jason:
I have some old photos of my locality going
back about 70 years.

I want to compare these old scenes with their modern
equivalents.

How does one position a camera (and lens) to match the
ancient scenes so that the old & current images are
superimposable (or nearly so).

Peter

Sandman:
You take a wider shot and then crop. Photoshop can
help you fix perspective differences as well, but the closer
you are to the same spot when you take the pic, the better.

Floyd L. Davidson:
You can't change the perspective in post processing.

Sandman:
With modern software, you can.

You can not.


Incorrect.

Take a picture of a car parked in front of your house from across
the street with a 105mm macro lens. You'll be able to see a great
deal of your house.


Now use the same camera and lens to take a picture of the same car,
except shoot from 3 inches away from the car door at the door's
midpoint. You won't be able to even see your house, much less any
of it's details.


That is the perspective which is important in recreating an older
image. It depends entirely on the location of the camera when the
picture is taken. It cannot be adjusted even slightly in post
processing.


Learn to read, Floyd.


Yeah, right!

Sandman bites the dust... one more time. (And poor nospam goes too.)


You are right (about perspective). Perspective is determined by
'sight-lines' originating with the viewer's eye or, in this case, the
camera lenss. You can only chnge perrspective by changing the view
point. Focal length doesn't affct perspective. It only affects field
of view.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #26  
Old May 8th 15, 04:33 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
John McWilliams
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Posts: 6,945
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

On 5/7/15 PDT 9:27 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
John McWilliams wrote:
On 5/7/15 PDT 8:54 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Sandman wrote; In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

I'm not holding my breath.

We all wish you would!

Is this another case of you are going to tell us how to define
words in English? Should be good for a hoot.


No, we don't all wish that. Many of us wish for more
civility from either of you, but are not expecting
same. Jonas' understanding and writing of English is
well above average ---for even native English-speaking
folk.

Your perspective example, Floyd, addresses only one aspect of the concept.


It addresses the aspect that counts in this situation.

And please do not compare my civility to the rather
crude and discusting rants that Sandman produces.


You have both veered off the path of righteous and courteous discourse
on numerous occasions. I have, once or thrice, too.

Go in peace!

  #27  
Old May 8th 15, 04:37 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
John McWilliams
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Posts: 6,945
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

On 5/7/15 PDT 3:50 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 07 May 2015 08:55:50 -0700, John McWilliams
wrote:

On 5/7/15 PDT 2:13 AM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 07 May 2015 02:36:56 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

You take a wider shot and then crop. Photoshop can help you fix perspective
differences as well, but the closer you are to the same spot when you take
the pic, the better.

You can't change the perspective in post processing.

https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/perspective-warp.html
Photoshop lets you easily adjust perspective in images. This feature
is particularly useful for images having straight lines and flat
surfaces‹for example, architectural images and images of buildings.
You can also use this feature to composite objects having different
perspectives in a single image.

My experience is that this a faux change in perspective. I have tried
this on a nuber of images and found that it introduces a number of
visible distortions. DxO is noticeably better but still is not
perfect. Moral: you have to place the modern camera in the same
position as the original. Afterall it's sight lines which determine
perspective.


The best way is to determine the spot from which the original was shot,
and the focal length and aperture of the lens used at the time, and
duplicate it. Everything else is a fudge- and sometimes confection is
needed.


Focal length doesn't affect perspective. All it does is affect field
of view.


The bigger pictu Not just about perspective. Field of view,
compression are also important, as is sharpness. (Probably most modern
lenses are sharper than that used then, and one can de-sharpen a lot
more than sharpen.


  #28  
Old May 8th 15, 04:52 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
android
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,854
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

In article ,
John McWilliams wrote:

On 5/7/15 PDT 3:50 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 07 May 2015 08:55:50 -0700, John McWilliams
wrote:

On 5/7/15 PDT 2:13 AM, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 07 May 2015 02:36:56 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

You take a wider shot and then crop. Photoshop can help you fix
perspective
differences as well, but the closer you are to the same spot when you
take
the pic, the better.

You can't change the perspective in post processing.

https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/perspective-warp.html
Photoshop lets you easily adjust perspective in images. This feature
is particularly useful for images having straight lines and flat
surfacesĐfor example, architectural images and images of buildings.
You can also use this feature to composite objects having different
perspectives in a single image.

My experience is that this a faux change in perspective. I have tried
this on a nuber of images and found that it introduces a number of
visible distortions. DxO is noticeably better but still is not
perfect. Moral: you have to place the modern camera in the same
position as the original. Afterall it's sight lines which determine
perspective.

The best way is to determine the spot from which the original was shot,
and the focal length and aperture of the lens used at the time, and
duplicate it. Everything else is a fudge- and sometimes confection is
needed.


I just wanna ad that I found that some street view nav services can be
help full in jogging the memory right. You can look at the map, go to
street view and have a looksie!

Focal length doesn't affect perspective. All it does is affect field
of view.


Soo true...

The bigger pictu Not just about perspective. Field of view,
compression are also important, as is sharpness. (Probably most modern
lenses are sharper than that used then, and one can de-sharpen a lot
more than sharpen.


And many cameras have sepia modes built in and that kind of artificial
aging can be done in post too of course.

I saw a guy on TV that had put a facial picture of himself on top of a
picture of WWII member of the french resistance claiming that it was his
grandfather. He didn't fool me...
--
teleportation kills
  #29  
Old May 8th 15, 07:10 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
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Posts: 5,467
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Peter Jason:
I have some old photos of my locality
going back about 70 years.

I want to compare these old scenes with their modern
equivalents.

How does one position a camera (and lens) to match
the ancient scenes so that the old & current images
are superimposable (or nearly so).

Peter

Sandman:
You take a wider shot and then crop.
Photoshop can help you fix perspective differences as
well, but the closer you are to the same spot when you
take the pic, the better.

Floyd L. Davidson:
You can't change the perspective in
post processing.

Sandman:
With modern software, you can.

Floyd L. Davidson:
You can not.

Sandman:
Incorrect.

Floyd L. Davidson:
Take a picture of a car parked in front
of your house from across the street with a 105mm macro
lens. You'll be able to see a great deal of your house.

Now use the same camera and lens to take a picture of the
same car, except shoot from 3 inches away from the car door
at the door's midpoint. You won't be able to even see your
house, much less any of it's details.

That is the perspective which is important in recreating an
older image. It depends entirely on the location of the
camera when the picture is taken. It cannot be adjusted
even slightly in post processing.

Sandman:
Learn to read, Floyd.

Floyd L. Davidson:
Yeah, right!


Sandman bites the dust... one more time. (And poor nospam goes
too.)


Sandman:
Will you let us know if you get the chance to learn to read
anytime soon?


I'm not holding my breath.


We all wish you would!


Is this another case of you are going to tell us how to define words
in English? Should be good for a hoot.


Please provide a dictionary definition of perspective that matches
what you think Adobe was trying to say (using the wrong words, BTW).


You know, what I wrote is still above in the quoted text, and your inane response
is as well. Re-read what I wrote a couple of times and then see if you can have
an adult explain how what I said and your example has nothing in common.

This is a classic case of Floyd trolling - he joins a thread where one of his
"nemesis" have posted, tries to find some detail he can quote of context and
claim it is incorrect, while failing to understand what was actually written and
also failing to understand what can be done with modern software.

--
Sandman
  #30  
Old May 8th 15, 07:19 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Sandman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,467
Default Matching the aspect of ancient photographs.

In article , Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Sandman:
I'm not holding my breath.

Floyd L. Davidson:
We all wish you would!


Is this another case of you are going to tell us how to define
words in English? Should be good for a hoot.


John McWilliams:
No, we don't all wish that. Many of us wish for more civility from
either of you, but are not expecting same. Jonas' understanding
and writing of English is well above average ---for even native
English-speaking folk.


Your perspective example, Floyd, addresses only one aspect of the
concept.


It addresses the aspect that counts in this situation.


See, here's where that "reading" bit would have helped you.

The OP wanted to recreate a photo from the past, and make it as close as
possible.

Now, I wonder if my suggestion was to shoot the scene 3 inches away from the
building or subject, or was it:

"You take a wider shot and then crop. Photoshop can help you fix perspective
differences as well, but the closer you are to the same spot when you take
the pic, the better."

I wonder, oh how I wonder which of the two examples that was my suggestion.

I gave a very good suggestion and told the OP to be as close as possible to the
original spot as possible, and that any differences in framing and perspective
can be fixed in post processing.

Enter Floyd, the groups biggest troll failure, and make a blanket and incorrect
statement as response. And to reinforce his reading comprehension problems he
tries to "prove" his claim by creating a completely unrelated example that has
nothing to do with what the OP asked for or what I suggested.

Now watch Floyd quietly scurry away with his tail between his legs, like always.



--
Sandman
 




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