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#1
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In-minilab cropping?
I shoot parties with a couple of rangefinders. I like rangefinders
because of their fast accurate focus and high speed flash sync. But I've found that my composition suffers from parallax. I was wondering if there was a minilab machine out there where you could crop the image before the print is made. This would correct 90% of my problems, which are mostly silly objects and halves of people's faces making their way into the frame. I've never worked in a minilab but I have a hunch that this feature is resident on some of the machines out there. Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option. I only go to 8"x10" on about 1% of my prints anyway. Thanks in advance for any info. |
#3
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In-minilab cropping?
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#4
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In-minilab cropping?
It's a frustrating situation but think about it from the lab manager's point
of view. Essentially you are asking for custom cropping at mini-lab prices. Are you planning on standing in the middle of the production area, looking over the shoulder of the operator while they bring each image up on their monitor and then have them wait for your input on the cropping of each individual image? Taking down a machine, probably their only printer, capable of printing (for the sake of argument) 40 rolls of film per hour at a net profit per roll to the lab of (for the sake of argument) $2.00 per roll (that's only $80.00 per hour and I suspect most labs net more than that!). To print a couple of lousy rolls shot with crappy (from the point of view of the lab!) cropping and make the lab only $4.00 net per hour instead of $80 per hour. My response (were I still running a mini-lab) would be, yes sir! Mr. Customer, glad to oblige, AND BRING LOTS OF MONEY! Steven, you said, "Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option." Is that because enlarger cropping is slow and expensive? It's also slow and expensive to manually input cropping for individual prints on a printer (one of the reasons that reprints cost more than run of production prints with original orders). And be ready to explain to all the other customers shooting SLR's with decent viewfinders why their orders are late. I had a guy with $10,000 worth of Leicaflex gear try that with our lab once, we finally had to ask him to leave, he wanted to color correct each print as it came out of the machine and have us do it over 3-6 times for 25 cents per shot--note that's 25 cents for the ones he'd take not 25 cents for each print we made on his quest to the perfect print. He started shooting color slide film (at my suggestion) and was surprised to learn that the color that's there (in Mother Nature's paintbox) is rarely as the shooter remembers it at the time he made the images. The most you should expect from a mini-lab is in-focus prints with decent color balance and exposure, consistent from print to print (within a series shot with the same light), neatly trimmed, professionally packaged and delivered when promised. Anything more is a bonus. Mini-lab managers are usually good photographers (some of the best I've known were NOT), mini-lab owners rarely are good shooters and the operators are people that will work for what the owner will pay (in my area 7.00 per hour--that's less than McDonald's). Note that: 1-high speed flash synch is rarely needed when shooting in darker confines such as parties 2-many inexpensive RF's with between the lens shutters have viewfinders with parallax correction 3-shooting flash with slower shutter speeds will get you more ambient fill light and atmosphere (My Nikon 8008s SLR's will synch at 1/250 but I rarely shoot faster than 1/30 when shooting low light events, I find "dragging the shutter" gives me more ambient light for fill and more "ambiance", my flash duration for close up is about 1/10,000th of a second no matter what shutter speed I select on camera, I use the TTL flash mode with my flash, composition is very accurate and the electronic rangefinder aid is pretty accurate. Note that I do not use autofocus but I do use the electronic focus aid at times, I will also preset focus many times before swinging the camera up to my eye and just shoot--faster is better for candids.) If you can't adjust your technique or change your equipment you'll probably have to change you expectations of what you can get from a mini-lab. Len's suggestion is a good one: Better that you crop your scanned negatives at home and burn a new CD, take it to Walmart (etc.) and get digital reprints. -- darkroommike ---------- "Len Bryan" wrote in message ... On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:37:35 GMT, wrote: I shoot parties with a couple of rangefinders. I like rangefinders because of their fast accurate focus and high speed flash sync. But I've found that my composition suffers from parallax. I was wondering if there was a minilab machine out there where you could crop the image before the print is made. This would correct 90% of my problems, which are mostly silly objects and halves of people's faces making their way into the frame. I've never worked in a minilab but I have a hunch that this feature is resident on some of the machines out there. Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option. I only go to 8"x10" on about 1% of my prints anyway. Thanks in advance for any info. Many modern minilabs can do this with ease. In particular, a minilab that prints digital images almost certainly can do it from nearly any type of input. Some may choose not to offer the service as it can slow the production down considerably. I would ask to find out about it. Your message indicated to me that you are talking about negatives as input. In this case if you are using a lab that does use a digital machine, you could request a CD first, make all your crops yourself, burn a second CD and ask them to print from that. Now, if you use a minilab that is optical rather than digital, the cropping options are dependent on a number of things. Some minilabs actually have cropping masks and video monitors that show the image even though the print is made optically. If you get to know your photofinisher, they can tell you how their system works and give you an idea how they can deal with your images. Again, some places will do it, and others will not. Len Bryan |
#5
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In-minilab cropping?
Well Mike, it looks like you tore me a new one. Actually, I have no complaints
from anyone I show my work to, however I'm a perfectionist and having half a face creeping up in my pictures drives me crazy. Parallax correction on rangefinders does not compare to using an SLR. I use a pro-lab for my printing and often pay twice or even triple what you'll pay at a drug store lab. To me it's worth it. With respect to SLRs vs rangefinders, I will admit that composition is far superior when using an SLR. However, the only time I feel an SLR truly delivers is when it's sitting on a tripod with MLU. I feel I get better and sharper results with a rangefinder. I don't believe I'm alone. I was hoping that someone would actually know of a brand of machine that's out there that would do this. I'm pretty confident that they're out there. And yes I would pay extra for the service. I obviously would prefer to do it myself, but I'm not sure how much I'd have to pay to allow me to sit at the controls. Mike King wrote: It's a frustrating situation but think about it from the lab manager's point of view. Essentially you are asking for custom cropping at mini-lab prices. Are you planning on standing in the middle of the production area, looking over the shoulder of the operator while they bring each image up on their monitor and then have them wait for your input on the cropping of each individual image? Taking down a machine, probably their only printer, capable of printing (for the sake of argument) 40 rolls of film per hour at a net profit per roll to the lab of (for the sake of argument) $2.00 per roll (that's only $80.00 per hour and I suspect most labs net more than that!). To print a couple of lousy rolls shot with crappy (from the point of view of the lab!) cropping and make the lab only $4.00 net per hour instead of $80 per hour. My response (were I still running a mini-lab) would be, yes sir! Mr. Customer, glad to oblige, AND BRING LOTS OF MONEY! Steven, you said, "Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option." Is that because enlarger cropping is slow and expensive? It's also slow and expensive to manually input cropping for individual prints on a printer (one of the reasons that reprints cost more than run of production prints with original orders). And be ready to explain to all the other customers shooting SLR's with decent viewfinders why their orders are late. I had a guy with $10,000 worth of Leicaflex gear try that with our lab once, we finally had to ask him to leave, he wanted to color correct each print as it came out of the machine and have us do it over 3-6 times for 25 cents per shot--note that's 25 cents for the ones he'd take not 25 cents for each print we made on his quest to the perfect print. He started shooting color slide film (at my suggestion) and was surprised to learn that the color that's there (in Mother Nature's paintbox) is rarely as the shooter remembers it at the time he made the images. The most you should expect from a mini-lab is in-focus prints with decent color balance and exposure, consistent from print to print (within a series shot with the same light), neatly trimmed, professionally packaged and delivered when promised. Anything more is a bonus. Mini-lab managers are usually good photographers (some of the best I've known were NOT), mini-lab owners rarely are good shooters and the operators are people that will work for what the owner will pay (in my area 7.00 per hour--that's less than McDonald's). Note that: 1-high speed flash synch is rarely needed when shooting in darker confines such as parties 2-many inexpensive RF's with between the lens shutters have viewfinders with parallax correction 3-shooting flash with slower shutter speeds will get you more ambient fill light and atmosphere (My Nikon 8008s SLR's will synch at 1/250 but I rarely shoot faster than 1/30 when shooting low light events, I find "dragging the shutter" gives me more ambient light for fill and more "ambiance", my flash duration for close up is about 1/10,000th of a second no matter what shutter speed I select on camera, I use the TTL flash mode with my flash, composition is very accurate and the electronic rangefinder aid is pretty accurate. Note that I do not use autofocus but I do use the electronic focus aid at times, I will also preset focus many times before swinging the camera up to my eye and just shoot--faster is better for candids.) If you can't adjust your technique or change your equipment you'll probably have to change you expectations of what you can get from a mini-lab. Len's suggestion is a good one: Better that you crop your scanned negatives at home and burn a new CD, take it to Walmart (etc.) and get digital reprints. -- darkroommike ---------- "Len Bryan" wrote in message ... On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:37:35 GMT, wrote: I shoot parties with a couple of rangefinders. I like rangefinders because of their fast accurate focus and high speed flash sync. But I've found that my composition suffers from parallax. I was wondering if there was a minilab machine out there where you could crop the image before the print is made. This would correct 90% of my problems, which are mostly silly objects and halves of people's faces making their way into the frame. I've never worked in a minilab but I have a hunch that this feature is resident on some of the machines out there. Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option. I only go to 8"x10" on about 1% of my prints anyway. Thanks in advance for any info. Many modern minilabs can do this with ease. In particular, a minilab that prints digital images almost certainly can do it from nearly any type of input. Some may choose not to offer the service as it can slow the production down considerably. I would ask to find out about it. Your message indicated to me that you are talking about negatives as input. In this case if you are using a lab that does use a digital machine, you could request a CD first, make all your crops yourself, burn a second CD and ask them to print from that. Now, if you use a minilab that is optical rather than digital, the cropping options are dependent on a number of things. Some minilabs actually have cropping masks and video monitors that show the image even though the print is made optically. If you get to know your photofinisher, they can tell you how their system works and give you an idea how they can deal with your images. Again, some places will do it, and others will not. Len Bryan |
#6
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In-minilab cropping?
Steven, as Mike mentioned, all of the new digital minilabs offer cropping. But
you may need to pay extra for them to take the time to do this for you rather than just print the entire negative. Look for a lab with some of the newer Noritsu DLS printers; 2711, 3101, etc. If it's an optical printer, then cropping is usually not an option. In addition to cropping, they typically allow for easy adjustment of background contrast to lighten up those dark backgrounds from being too fr from your flash. It's just a simple selection on the computer when the images are fed to the printer. Oh yes, as mentioned, remember that the typical operator only makes small bucks and may have no judgment or cropping skills. You really should consider having the negatives scanned then cropping at home before ordering reprints. Bernie |
#7
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In-minilab cropping?
Please note that this is my last response to this thread.
wrote in message ... Well Mike, it looks like you tore me a new one. Gosh, Steven, I really hope no one in a newsgroup ever really goes after you. I was just trying to give insight into the economics of mini-lab operation and suggest a different workflow that might better suit the way things are, (rather than the way we'd all like them to be, there are times when I, too, would love to get special cropping on a roll of film; concerts come to mind as a good example, you are constrained as to positions you can shoot the action from and i frequently wish I could get in a little tighter). Actually, I have no complaints from anyone I show my work to, however I'm a perfectionist and having half a face creeping up in my pictures drives me crazy. Parallax correction on rangefinders does not compare to using an SLR. I use a pro-lab for my printing and often pay twice or even triple what you'll pay at a drug store lab. I'm sorry, the subject header said mini-lab, that's the question I addressed. A lot of mini-labs CLAIM to be custom labs but try getting real custom work from them. If there isn't a really pale guy working eight hours a day in a darkroom in the back of the building, it probably isn't a real custom lab. To me it's worth it. With respect to SLRs vs rangefinders, I will admit that composition is far superior when using an SLR. However, the only time I feel an SLR truly delivers is when it's sitting on a tripod with MLU. Truly delivers what? Sharpness, focus, exposure? When shooting flash at 1/10,000 in a dark bar? I feel I get better and sharper results with a rangefinder. I don't believe I'm alone. I was hoping that someone would actually know of a brand of machine that's out there that would do this. I'm pretty confident that they're out there. And yes I would pay extra for the service. I obviously would prefer to do it myself, but I'm not sure how much I'd have to pay to allow me to sit at the controls. Some of the Kodak Kiosk machines will permit this, expect to pay a lot. Much cheaper to have the lab do the scans and do your cropping at home. Or pick up a scanner, dedicated film scanners are cheaper every year. (And I suspect consumer level scanners will soon be obsolete as more consumers move to a full digital workflow. So don't wait too long) Mike King wrote: It's a frustrating situation but think about it from the lab manager's point of view. Essentially you are asking for custom cropping at mini-lab prices. Are you planning on standing in the middle of the production area, looking over the shoulder of the operator while they bring each image up on their monitor and then have them wait for your input on the cropping of each individual image? Taking down a machine, probably their only printer, capable of printing (for the sake of argument) 40 rolls of film per hour at a net profit per roll to the lab of (for the sake of argument) $2.00 per roll (that's only $80.00 per hour and I suspect most labs net more than that!). To print a couple of lousy rolls shot with crappy (from the point of view of the lab!) cropping and make the lab only $4.00 net per hour instead of $80 per hour. My response (were I still running a mini-lab) would be, yes sir! Mr. Customer, glad to oblige, AND BRING LOTS OF MONEY! Steven, you said, "Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option." Is that because enlarger cropping is slow and expensive? It's also slow and expensive to manually input cropping for individual prints on a printer (one of the reasons that reprints cost more than run of production prints with original orders). And be ready to explain to all the other customers shooting SLR's with decent viewfinders why their orders are late. I had a guy with $10,000 worth of Leicaflex gear try that with our lab once, we finally had to ask him to leave, he wanted to color correct each print as it came out of the machine and have us do it over 3-6 times for 25 cents per shot--note that's 25 cents for the ones he'd take not 25 cents for each print we made on his quest to the perfect print. He started shooting color slide film (at my suggestion) and was surprised to learn that the color that's there (in Mother Nature's paintbox) is rarely as the shooter remembers it at the time he made the images. The most you should expect from a mini-lab is in-focus prints with decent color balance and exposure, consistent from print to print (within a series shot with the same light), neatly trimmed, professionally packaged and delivered when promised. Anything more is a bonus. Mini-lab managers are usually good photographers (some of the best I've known were NOT), mini-lab owners rarely are good shooters and the operators are people that will work for what the owner will pay (in my area 7.00 per hour--that's less than McDonald's). Note that: 1-high speed flash synch is rarely needed when shooting in darker confines such as parties 2-many inexpensive RF's with between the lens shutters have viewfinders with parallax correction 3-shooting flash with slower shutter speeds will get you more ambient fill light and atmosphere (My Nikon 8008s SLR's will synch at 1/250 but I rarely shoot faster than 1/30 when shooting low light events, I find "dragging the shutter" gives me more ambient light for fill and more "ambiance", my flash duration for close up is about 1/10,000th of a second no matter what shutter speed I select on camera, I use the TTL flash mode with my flash, composition is very accurate and the electronic rangefinder aid is pretty accurate. Note that I do not use autofocus but I do use the electronic focus aid at times, I will also preset focus many times before swinging the camera up to my eye and just shoot--faster is better for candids.) If you can't adjust your technique or change your equipment you'll probably have to change you expectations of what you can get from a mini-lab. Len's suggestion is a good one: Better that you crop your scanned negatives at home and burn a new CD, take it to Walmart (etc.) and get digital reprints. -- darkroommike ---------- "Len Bryan" wrote in message ... On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:37:35 GMT, wrote: I shoot parties with a couple of rangefinders. I like rangefinders because of their fast accurate focus and high speed flash sync. But I've found that my composition suffers from parallax. I was wondering if there was a minilab machine out there where you could crop the image before the print is made. This would correct 90% of my problems, which are mostly silly objects and halves of people's faces making their way into the frame. I've never worked in a minilab but I have a hunch that this feature is resident on some of the machines out there. Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option. I only go to 8"x10" on about 1% of my prints anyway. Thanks in advance for any info. Many modern minilabs can do this with ease. In particular, a minilab that prints digital images almost certainly can do it from nearly any type of input. Some may choose not to offer the service as it can slow the production down considerably. I would ask to find out about it. Your message indicated to me that you are talking about negatives as input. In this case if you are using a lab that does use a digital machine, you could request a CD first, make all your crops yourself, burn a second CD and ask them to print from that. Now, if you use a minilab that is optical rather than digital, the cropping options are dependent on a number of things. Some minilabs actually have cropping masks and video monitors that show the image even though the print is made optically. If you get to know your photofinisher, they can tell you how their system works and give you an idea how they can deal with your images. Again, some places will do it, and others will not. Len Bryan |
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