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In-minilab cropping?



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 6th 04, 02:37 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default In-minilab cropping?

I shoot parties with a couple of rangefinders. I like rangefinders
because of their fast accurate focus and high speed flash sync. But
I've found that my composition suffers from parallax. I was wondering
if there was a minilab machine out there where you could crop the image
before the print is made. This would correct 90% of my problems, which
are mostly silly objects and halves of people's faces making their way
into the frame. I've never worked in a minilab but I have a hunch that
this feature is resident on some of the machines out there. Enlarger
cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option. I only go to 8"x10" on
about 1% of my prints anyway.
Thanks in advance for any info.

  #3  
Old March 7th 04, 05:21 AM
Len Bryan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default In-minilab cropping?

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:37:35 GMT, wrote:

I shoot parties with a couple of rangefinders. I like rangefinders
because of their fast accurate focus and high speed flash sync. But
I've found that my composition suffers from parallax. I was wondering
if there was a minilab machine out there where you could crop the image
before the print is made. This would correct 90% of my problems, which
are mostly silly objects and halves of people's faces making their way
into the frame. I've never worked in a minilab but I have a hunch that
this feature is resident on some of the machines out there. Enlarger
cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option. I only go to 8"x10" on
about 1% of my prints anyway.
Thanks in advance for any info.


Many modern minilabs can do this with ease. In particular, a minilab that prints
digital images almost certainly can do it from nearly any type of input. Some
may choose not to offer the service as it can slow the production down
considerably. I would ask to find out about it. Your message indicated to me
that you are talking about negatives as input. In this case if you are using a
lab that does use a digital machine, you could request a CD first, make all your
crops yourself, burn a second CD and ask them to print from that.

Now, if you use a minilab that is optical rather than digital, the cropping
options are dependent on a number of things. Some minilabs actually have
cropping masks and video monitors that show the image even though the print is
made optically. If you get to know your photofinisher, they can tell you how
their system works and give you an idea how they can deal with your images.
Again, some places will do it, and others will not.

Len Bryan
  #4  
Old March 7th 04, 04:22 PM
Mike King
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default In-minilab cropping?

It's a frustrating situation but think about it from the lab manager's point
of view. Essentially you are asking for custom cropping at mini-lab prices.
Are you planning on standing in the middle of the production area, looking
over the shoulder of the operator while they bring each image up on their
monitor and then have them wait for your input on the cropping of each
individual image? Taking down a machine, probably their only printer,
capable of printing (for the sake of argument) 40 rolls of film per hour at
a net profit per roll to the lab of (for the sake of argument) $2.00 per
roll (that's only $80.00 per hour and I suspect most labs net more than
that!). To print a couple of lousy rolls shot with crappy (from the point
of view of the lab!) cropping and make the lab only $4.00 net per hour
instead of $80 per hour.

My response (were I still running a mini-lab) would be, yes sir! Mr.
Customer, glad to oblige, AND BRING LOTS OF MONEY!

Steven, you said, "Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option."

Is that because enlarger cropping is slow and expensive? It's also slow and
expensive to manually input cropping for individual prints on a printer (one
of the reasons that reprints cost more than run of production prints with
original orders).

And be ready to explain to all the other customers shooting SLR's with
decent viewfinders why their orders are late. I had a guy with $10,000
worth of Leicaflex gear try that with our lab once, we finally had to ask
him to leave, he wanted to color correct each print as it came out of the
machine and have us do it over 3-6 times for 25 cents per shot--note that's
25 cents for the ones he'd take not 25 cents for each print we made on his
quest to the perfect print. He started shooting color slide film (at my
suggestion) and was surprised to learn that the color that's there (in
Mother Nature's paintbox) is rarely as the shooter remembers it at the time
he made the images.

The most you should expect from a mini-lab is in-focus prints with decent
color balance and exposure, consistent from print to print (within a series
shot with the same light), neatly trimmed, professionally packaged and
delivered when promised. Anything more is a bonus. Mini-lab managers are
usually good photographers (some of the best I've known were NOT), mini-lab
owners rarely are good shooters and the operators are people that will work
for what the owner will pay (in my area 7.00 per hour--that's less than
McDonald's).

Note that:

1-high speed flash synch is rarely needed when shooting in darker confines
such as parties
2-many inexpensive RF's with between the lens shutters have viewfinders with
parallax correction
3-shooting flash with slower shutter speeds will get you more ambient fill
light and atmosphere

(My Nikon 8008s SLR's will synch at 1/250 but I rarely shoot faster than
1/30 when shooting low light events, I find "dragging the shutter" gives me
more ambient light for fill and more "ambiance", my flash duration for close
up is about 1/10,000th of a second no matter what shutter speed I select on
camera, I use the TTL flash mode with my flash, composition is very accurate
and the electronic rangefinder aid is pretty accurate. Note that I do not
use autofocus but I do use the electronic focus aid at times, I will also
preset focus many times before swinging the camera up to my eye and just
shoot--faster is better for candids.)

If you can't adjust your technique or change your equipment you'll probably
have to change you expectations of what you can get from a mini-lab. Len's
suggestion is a good one: Better that you crop your scanned negatives at
home and burn a new CD, take it to Walmart (etc.) and get digital reprints.

--
darkroommike

----------
"Len Bryan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:37:35 GMT, wrote:

I shoot parties with a couple of rangefinders. I like rangefinders
because of their fast accurate focus and high speed flash sync. But
I've found that my composition suffers from parallax. I was wondering
if there was a minilab machine out there where you could crop the image
before the print is made. This would correct 90% of my problems, which
are mostly silly objects and halves of people's faces making their way
into the frame. I've never worked in a minilab but I have a hunch that
this feature is resident on some of the machines out there. Enlarger
cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option. I only go to 8"x10" on
about 1% of my prints anyway.
Thanks in advance for any info.


Many modern minilabs can do this with ease. In particular, a minilab that

prints
digital images almost certainly can do it from nearly any type of input.

Some
may choose not to offer the service as it can slow the production down
considerably. I would ask to find out about it. Your message indicated to

me
that you are talking about negatives as input. In this case if you are

using a
lab that does use a digital machine, you could request a CD first, make

all your
crops yourself, burn a second CD and ask them to print from that.

Now, if you use a minilab that is optical rather than digital, the

cropping
options are dependent on a number of things. Some minilabs actually have
cropping masks and video monitors that show the image even though the

print is
made optically. If you get to know your photofinisher, they can tell you

how
their system works and give you an idea how they can deal with your

images.
Again, some places will do it, and others will not.

Len Bryan



  #5  
Old March 8th 04, 02:00 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default In-minilab cropping?

Well Mike, it looks like you tore me a new one. Actually, I have no complaints
from anyone I show my work to, however I'm a perfectionist and having half a
face creeping up in my pictures drives me crazy. Parallax correction on
rangefinders does not compare to using an SLR. I use a pro-lab for my printing
and often pay twice or even triple what you'll pay at a drug store lab. To me
it's worth it. With respect to SLRs vs rangefinders, I will admit that
composition is far superior when using an SLR. However, the only time I feel an
SLR truly delivers is when it's sitting on a tripod with MLU. I feel I get
better and sharper results with a rangefinder. I don't believe I'm alone. I
was hoping that someone would actually know of a brand of machine that's out
there that would do this. I'm pretty confident that they're out there. And yes
I would pay extra for the service. I obviously would prefer to do it myself,
but I'm not sure how much I'd have to pay to allow me to sit at the controls.

Mike King wrote:

It's a frustrating situation but think about it from the lab manager's point
of view. Essentially you are asking for custom cropping at mini-lab prices.
Are you planning on standing in the middle of the production area, looking
over the shoulder of the operator while they bring each image up on their
monitor and then have them wait for your input on the cropping of each
individual image? Taking down a machine, probably their only printer,
capable of printing (for the sake of argument) 40 rolls of film per hour at
a net profit per roll to the lab of (for the sake of argument) $2.00 per
roll (that's only $80.00 per hour and I suspect most labs net more than
that!). To print a couple of lousy rolls shot with crappy (from the point
of view of the lab!) cropping and make the lab only $4.00 net per hour
instead of $80 per hour.

My response (were I still running a mini-lab) would be, yes sir! Mr.
Customer, glad to oblige, AND BRING LOTS OF MONEY!

Steven, you said, "Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option."

Is that because enlarger cropping is slow and expensive? It's also slow and
expensive to manually input cropping for individual prints on a printer (one
of the reasons that reprints cost more than run of production prints with
original orders).

And be ready to explain to all the other customers shooting SLR's with
decent viewfinders why their orders are late. I had a guy with $10,000
worth of Leicaflex gear try that with our lab once, we finally had to ask
him to leave, he wanted to color correct each print as it came out of the
machine and have us do it over 3-6 times for 25 cents per shot--note that's
25 cents for the ones he'd take not 25 cents for each print we made on his
quest to the perfect print. He started shooting color slide film (at my
suggestion) and was surprised to learn that the color that's there (in
Mother Nature's paintbox) is rarely as the shooter remembers it at the time
he made the images.

The most you should expect from a mini-lab is in-focus prints with decent
color balance and exposure, consistent from print to print (within a series
shot with the same light), neatly trimmed, professionally packaged and
delivered when promised. Anything more is a bonus. Mini-lab managers are
usually good photographers (some of the best I've known were NOT), mini-lab
owners rarely are good shooters and the operators are people that will work
for what the owner will pay (in my area 7.00 per hour--that's less than
McDonald's).

Note that:

1-high speed flash synch is rarely needed when shooting in darker confines
such as parties
2-many inexpensive RF's with between the lens shutters have viewfinders with
parallax correction
3-shooting flash with slower shutter speeds will get you more ambient fill
light and atmosphere

(My Nikon 8008s SLR's will synch at 1/250 but I rarely shoot faster than
1/30 when shooting low light events, I find "dragging the shutter" gives me
more ambient light for fill and more "ambiance", my flash duration for close
up is about 1/10,000th of a second no matter what shutter speed I select on
camera, I use the TTL flash mode with my flash, composition is very accurate
and the electronic rangefinder aid is pretty accurate. Note that I do not
use autofocus but I do use the electronic focus aid at times, I will also
preset focus many times before swinging the camera up to my eye and just
shoot--faster is better for candids.)

If you can't adjust your technique or change your equipment you'll probably
have to change you expectations of what you can get from a mini-lab. Len's
suggestion is a good one: Better that you crop your scanned negatives at
home and burn a new CD, take it to Walmart (etc.) and get digital reprints.

--
darkroommike

----------
"Len Bryan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:37:35 GMT, wrote:

I shoot parties with a couple of rangefinders. I like rangefinders
because of their fast accurate focus and high speed flash sync. But
I've found that my composition suffers from parallax. I was wondering
if there was a minilab machine out there where you could crop the image
before the print is made. This would correct 90% of my problems, which
are mostly silly objects and halves of people's faces making their way
into the frame. I've never worked in a minilab but I have a hunch that
this feature is resident on some of the machines out there. Enlarger
cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option. I only go to 8"x10" on
about 1% of my prints anyway.
Thanks in advance for any info.


Many modern minilabs can do this with ease. In particular, a minilab that

prints
digital images almost certainly can do it from nearly any type of input.

Some
may choose not to offer the service as it can slow the production down
considerably. I would ask to find out about it. Your message indicated to

me
that you are talking about negatives as input. In this case if you are

using a
lab that does use a digital machine, you could request a CD first, make

all your
crops yourself, burn a second CD and ask them to print from that.

Now, if you use a minilab that is optical rather than digital, the

cropping
options are dependent on a number of things. Some minilabs actually have
cropping masks and video monitors that show the image even though the

print is
made optically. If you get to know your photofinisher, they can tell you

how
their system works and give you an idea how they can deal with your

images.
Again, some places will do it, and others will not.

Len Bryan


  #6  
Old March 10th 04, 02:40 AM
Jazztptman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default In-minilab cropping?

Steven, as Mike mentioned, all of the new digital minilabs offer cropping. But
you may need to pay extra for them to take the time to do this for you rather
than just print the entire negative. Look for a lab with some of the newer
Noritsu DLS printers; 2711, 3101, etc. If it's an optical printer, then
cropping is usually not an option. In addition to cropping, they typically
allow for easy adjustment of background contrast to lighten up those dark
backgrounds from being too fr from your flash. It's just a simple selection on
the computer when the images are fed to the printer.

Oh yes, as mentioned, remember that the typical operator only makes small bucks
and may have no judgment or cropping skills. You really should consider having
the negatives scanned then cropping at home before ordering reprints.
Bernie
  #7  
Old March 10th 04, 07:20 PM
Mike King
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default In-minilab cropping?

Please note that this is my last response to this thread.

wrote in message
...
Well Mike, it looks like you tore me a new one.


Gosh, Steven, I really hope no one in a newsgroup ever really goes after
you. I was just trying to give insight into the economics of mini-lab
operation and suggest a different workflow that might better suit the way
things are, (rather than the way we'd all like them to be, there are times
when I, too, would love to get special cropping on a roll of film; concerts
come to mind as a good example, you are constrained as to positions you can
shoot the action from and i frequently wish I could get in a little
tighter).

Actually, I have no complaints
from anyone I show my work to, however I'm a perfectionist and having half

a
face creeping up in my pictures drives me crazy. Parallax correction on
rangefinders does not compare to using an SLR. I use a pro-lab for my

printing
and often pay twice or even triple what you'll pay at a drug store lab.


I'm sorry, the subject header said mini-lab, that's the question I
addressed. A lot of mini-labs CLAIM to be custom labs but try getting real
custom work from them. If there isn't a really pale guy working eight hours
a day in a darkroom in the back of the building, it probably isn't a real
custom lab.

To me
it's worth it. With respect to SLRs vs rangefinders, I will admit that
composition is far superior when using an SLR. However, the only time I

feel an
SLR truly delivers is when it's sitting on a tripod with MLU.


Truly delivers what? Sharpness, focus, exposure? When shooting flash at
1/10,000 in a dark bar?

I feel I get
better and sharper results with a rangefinder. I don't believe I'm alone.

I
was hoping that someone would actually know of a brand of machine that's

out
there that would do this. I'm pretty confident that they're out there.

And yes
I would pay extra for the service. I obviously would prefer to do it

myself,
but I'm not sure how much I'd have to pay to allow me to sit at the

controls.

Some of the Kodak Kiosk machines will permit this, expect to pay a lot.
Much cheaper to have the lab do the scans and do your cropping at home. Or
pick up a scanner, dedicated film scanners are cheaper every year. (And I
suspect consumer level scanners will soon be obsolete as more consumers move
to a full digital workflow. So don't wait too long)

Mike King wrote:

It's a frustrating situation but think about it from the lab manager's

point
of view. Essentially you are asking for custom cropping at mini-lab

prices.
Are you planning on standing in the middle of the production area,

looking
over the shoulder of the operator while they bring each image up on

their
monitor and then have them wait for your input on the cropping of each
individual image? Taking down a machine, probably their only printer,
capable of printing (for the sake of argument) 40 rolls of film per hour

at
a net profit per roll to the lab of (for the sake of argument) $2.00 per
roll (that's only $80.00 per hour and I suspect most labs net more than
that!). To print a couple of lousy rolls shot with crappy (from the

point
of view of the lab!) cropping and make the lab only $4.00 net per hour
instead of $80 per hour.

My response (were I still running a mini-lab) would be, yes sir! Mr.
Customer, glad to oblige, AND BRING LOTS OF MONEY!

Steven, you said, "Enlarger cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an

option."

Is that because enlarger cropping is slow and expensive? It's also slow

and
expensive to manually input cropping for individual prints on a printer

(one
of the reasons that reprints cost more than run of production prints

with
original orders).

And be ready to explain to all the other customers shooting SLR's with
decent viewfinders why their orders are late. I had a guy with $10,000
worth of Leicaflex gear try that with our lab once, we finally had to

ask
him to leave, he wanted to color correct each print as it came out of

the
machine and have us do it over 3-6 times for 25 cents per shot--note

that's
25 cents for the ones he'd take not 25 cents for each print we made on

his
quest to the perfect print. He started shooting color slide film (at my
suggestion) and was surprised to learn that the color that's there (in
Mother Nature's paintbox) is rarely as the shooter remembers it at the

time
he made the images.

The most you should expect from a mini-lab is in-focus prints with

decent
color balance and exposure, consistent from print to print (within a

series
shot with the same light), neatly trimmed, professionally packaged and
delivered when promised. Anything more is a bonus. Mini-lab managers

are
usually good photographers (some of the best I've known were NOT),

mini-lab
owners rarely are good shooters and the operators are people that will

work
for what the owner will pay (in my area 7.00 per hour--that's less than
McDonald's).

Note that:

1-high speed flash synch is rarely needed when shooting in darker

confines
such as parties
2-many inexpensive RF's with between the lens shutters have viewfinders

with
parallax correction
3-shooting flash with slower shutter speeds will get you more ambient

fill
light and atmosphere

(My Nikon 8008s SLR's will synch at 1/250 but I rarely shoot faster than
1/30 when shooting low light events, I find "dragging the shutter" gives

me
more ambient light for fill and more "ambiance", my flash duration for

close
up is about 1/10,000th of a second no matter what shutter speed I select

on
camera, I use the TTL flash mode with my flash, composition is very

accurate
and the electronic rangefinder aid is pretty accurate. Note that I do

not
use autofocus but I do use the electronic focus aid at times, I will

also
preset focus many times before swinging the camera up to my eye and just
shoot--faster is better for candids.)

If you can't adjust your technique or change your equipment you'll

probably
have to change you expectations of what you can get from a mini-lab.

Len's
suggestion is a good one: Better that you crop your scanned negatives

at
home and burn a new CD, take it to Walmart (etc.) and get digital

reprints.

--
darkroommike

----------
"Len Bryan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 01:37:35 GMT, wrote:

I shoot parties with a couple of rangefinders. I like rangefinders
because of their fast accurate focus and high speed flash sync. But
I've found that my composition suffers from parallax. I was

wondering
if there was a minilab machine out there where you could crop the

image
before the print is made. This would correct 90% of my problems,

which
are mostly silly objects and halves of people's faces making their

way
into the frame. I've never worked in a minilab but I have a hunch

that
this feature is resident on some of the machines out there. Enlarger
cropping fifty 4"x6" prints is not an option. I only go to 8"x10" on
about 1% of my prints anyway.
Thanks in advance for any info.

Many modern minilabs can do this with ease. In particular, a minilab

that
prints
digital images almost certainly can do it from nearly any type of

input.
Some
may choose not to offer the service as it can slow the production down
considerably. I would ask to find out about it. Your message indicated

to
me
that you are talking about negatives as input. In this case if you are

using a
lab that does use a digital machine, you could request a CD first,

make
all your
crops yourself, burn a second CD and ask them to print from that.

Now, if you use a minilab that is optical rather than digital, the

cropping
options are dependent on a number of things. Some minilabs actually

have
cropping masks and video monitors that show the image even though the

print is
made optically. If you get to know your photofinisher, they can tell

you
how
their system works and give you an idea how they can deal with your

images.
Again, some places will do it, and others will not.

Len Bryan




 




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