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Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint



 
 
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  #141  
Old September 12th 17, 02:21 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Your Name[_2_]
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Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On 2017-09-12 00:31:19 +0000, Chaya Eve said:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 12:20:39 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
wrote:

I pointed out already that DIN *is* included with Macs.


Thanks for clarifying that a DIN font is included native with the Mac.
You're the only Mac expert here who knew that. Even the Windows experts
didn't know that a DIN 1451 compatible font exists on Windows (named
Barnshrift) until you mentioned the DIN compatible font on the Mac.

Since the name may make all the difference in compatibility, do you
know the name of that DIN 1451 compatible font on the Mac?


There is no "DIN" font installed by default on the Mac. You can
download it and it may be installed by some third-party applications.

There are no doubt lots of fonts that are close enough to be lookalikes.

  #142  
Old September 12th 17, 02:52 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Your Name[_2_]
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Posts: 102
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On 2017-09-12 00:31:18 +0000, Chaya Eve said:

Like you, I didn't realize the Microsoft implementation of the DIN 1451
font named Bahnschrift was on the latest Windows 10 either, until you
mentioned it.

Moving forward, if both Mac and Windows can use the same DIN 1451 font,
that will be the final solution.

Looking for what's on the Mac, the word "DIN" only shows up once.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ded_with_macOS

So the question is whether the Mac DIN 1451 font is the same font name as
the Windows DIN 1451 native font.


No, there is no "Bahnschrift" font installed by default on the Mac.

According to Apple's Support pages, two "DIN" fonts (which may or may
not be the the same as you want) /were/ included with Mac OS X
Mavericks (10.9) released in 2013,
DIN Condensed Bold.ttf
DIN Condensed Bold
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201375

BUT they are not included in newest Mac OS X Sierra (10.12) released in 2016.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206872

People who /upgraded/ their Mac's OS may still have those two fonts
installed, but those who bought new computers or did full, clean
installs of the newer OS will not.

Apple's Support pages don't seem to give a list of the default fonts
for versions of Mac OS X between those two, so I can't tell you at
which version the fonts were left out.

It remains to be seen whether they will re-appear in the up-coming
official release of Mac OS X High Sierra (10.13).


As I've said all along, there's no guaranteed app nor font that is
available on both Windows and Mac. The font is the easy part, since you
can download them and in most cases use the same font file for both
fairly new computers running Mac OS X or Windows and can be used in any
app.

Some apps like Microsoft Office do install fonts to aid compatibility
across platforms, as long as you stick to using those few fonts. Other
apps like FileMaker Pro try to use similar fonts to replace missing
ones. Other apps like Adobe Acrobat / Reader will use "Multiple Master"
fonts to try to approximate the same look as the original (by tweaking
the character spacing, character width, etc.).

Unfortunately, there's also no 100% guarantee that an editable document
created on one version of an app will look the same on another, even on
the same platform (with different versions of the OS and/or app), let
alone cross-platform. Even the almighty PDF can have issues.

The *best* solution for cross-platform documents is to use an image
format like JPEG, but even there there can be strange colour-shift
issues that mean the file doesn't quite look the same on all computers
.... plus of course it's not easily editable either.



  #143  
Old September 12th 17, 03:10 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
nospam
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Posts: 24,165
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

In article , Your Name
wrote:


Unfortunately, there's also no 100% guarantee that an editable document
created on one version of an app will look the same on another, even on
the same platform (with different versions of the OS and/or app), let
alone cross-platform. Even the almighty PDF can have issues.


there is if the person knows what they're doing.

The *best* solution for cross-platform documents is to use an image
format like JPEG, but even there there can be strange colour-shift
issues that mean the file doesn't quite look the same on all computers
... plus of course it's not easily editable either.


complete rubbish.
  #144  
Old September 12th 17, 03:35 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Chaya Eve
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Posts: 94
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 13:52:47 +1200, Your Name wrote:

there is no "Bahnschrift" font installed by default on the Mac.

According to Apple's Support pages, two "DIN" fonts (which may or may
not be the the same as you want) /were/ included with Mac OS X
Mavericks (10.9) released in 2013,
DIN Condensed Bold.ttf
DIN Condensed Bold
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201375

BUT they are not included in newest Mac OS X Sierra (10.12) released in 2016.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206872


Thanks for this detailed information on the DIN 1451-compatible fonts that
were shipped in older version of the Mac OS.

If I assume that the name has to be the same on both Windows and on the
Mac, then it might not matter that each platform might have "a" native
DIN-compatible font, since the font names are apparently very different
anyway on the two platforms.

In the end, the previous plan will be what makes the most sense, with the
only change being that I won't recommend the Roadgeek font anymore, since
the Gothic Font is "more compatible" with existing USA highway signs anyway
even as the "Bahnshrift" font is now shipping with the latest Windows 10
version.

I wrote up the project proposal and handed it in, where I thank you for
your Mac experience and expertise.

The plan roughly is the following:
* On the Mac, each user will need to download & install the fonts.
* When done, each user on the Mac will delete the font files.
* Windows users will just edit the PowerPoint file.
* The font to be used will be the free Highway Gothic font from somewhere.
(I wish I knew the canonical place to get free fonts from.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Gothic
* This hit gives some information about Highway Gothic fonts:
https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/pixymb...y-gothic-2002/
https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/pixymbols/highway-gothic/
* This seems to be the publisher of the Highway Gothic fonts:
Page Studio Graphics
https://www.myfonts.com/foundry/Page_Studio_Graphics/
* This seems to be the download location for the Mac/Windows font.
https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/pixymbols/highway-gothic/
* This seems to provide a similar font without license restriction
http://www.dafont.com/highway-gothic.font
* That downloads a zip file containing the following five similar fonts:
HWYGOTH.TTF
HWYGCOND.TTF
HWYGEXPD.TTF
HWYGNRRW.TTF
HWYGWDE.TTF

Since I just switched from Roadgeek to Highway Gothic, I'm still trying to
figure out the actual permissions, since the font seems to be widely
available for free and yet it's also a payware font so it's confusing, to
say the least, what the legal status of the font truly is.

If an issue comes up with the freeware Highway Gothic font, the fallback
plan is to use the Roadgeek font, which we have already determined is a
free font that only needs to have the copyright notice intact when
distributing.
  #145  
Old September 12th 17, 04:51 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Chaya Eve
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Posts: 94
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 14:25:51 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
wrote:

I just double checked. DIN is definitely installed in /Library/Fonts.

I verified this against the Sierra and Yosemite installers. It is
present in both.


Thanks for checking the default road-sign font for the Mac since we didn't
know at the start that both Windows 10 and the Mac seem to have differently
named DIN 1451 German standard roadsign fonts named Bahnschrift and DIN
respectively.

Since they're differently named, the compatibility goes poof out the
window, so, we're back to the original plan of choosing a commonly
available roadside font for both Mac & Windows to use.

I originally chose the Roadgeek font but I found out yesterday that the
Highway Gothic font seems to be freely available, which is just as useful
as Roadgeek is.

So the new plan for both Mac & Windows is to use the Highway Gothic font,
and if that has licensing issues, then to fall back upon the Roadgeek font,
which doesn't have any licensing issues.

The Mac plan, since Mac Powerpoint can't read or embed fonts, is to ask
everyone to install, use, and then remove the font when done.

The Windows plan is for everyone to just edit the PowerPoint file where I
will embed the font into the original.

Thanks for all your help as it wasn't intuitive these differences between
Mac and Windows with respect to roadsign fonts.
  #146  
Old September 12th 17, 05:09 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.sys.mac.apps,rec.photo.digital
Andreas Rutishauser
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Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

In article ,
Chaya Eve wrote:

Based on Mayayana's recent DIN 1451 font suggestion it looks like his
suggestion of Bahnschrift (literally "road font") is a far better free
road-sign font selection than Roadgeek was!


literally Bahn is railway, road would be Strasse

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  #147  
Old September 12th 17, 06:01 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.sys.mac.apps,rec.photo.digital
Chaya Eve
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Posts: 94
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 13:11:05 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

I am a Mac user, I am not going to label myself ´expertˇ, but since you
are looking for a sans serif font which is common to Mac, and Win platforms,
I have Microsoft Sans Serif Regular on this Mac, and I suspect it will be
found on Win machines. As a note, I have no MS software installed on this
Mac.
https://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/font.aspx?FMID=1599
https://catalog.monotype.com/font/microsoft-corporation/microsoft-sans-serif/regular


BTW: This is what it looks like on my Mac:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozi9gqpmq945db9/screenshot_170.png


Thanks for running that test.

A lot of good information came out of this thread, which I put into the
project plan that I handed in today to the Graphics Arts teacher for
review.

I think we all learned something new but one thing that is for certain is
that nobody is ever going to adequately tests a highway sign font sitting
at a computer screen, hence only a well-tested font can even be considered.

The most well tested USA font is, of course, Highway Gothic.
The most well tested European font appears to be DIN 1451.

The next-most-well tested font in the USA is Clearview.
And a great look-alike font is Roadgeek.

Luckily some versions of the Mac come with DIN and some versions of Windows
come with Bahnschrift (both of which are DIN 1451 look-alike fonts), so
that's the next choice.

That is the finite (known) list of fonts that meet the road-sign spec.

All those fonts are tested under real-world conditions for halation,
night-time and speed legibility (especially when tight interstices are
involved), cutout-integrity, removal of tiny notches in joints of the
letterforms, negative spacing compactness (affecting legibility of signs in
negative-contrast color orientations), common symbols, etc., all resulting
in an increase in accuracy, viewing distance, and reaction time.

Given that extensive testing, I would state that none of us is ever going
to find a better font while just sitting at our computers. It's just not
feasible no matter how "good looking" the font appears to be.

So the only font choices that are feasible are, in this order:
* USA Highway Gothic (not free, but available free so maybe it is free)
* USA Clearview (not free)
* Germany DIN 1451 (maybe free)
* USA Roadgeek (definitely free)
* Germany Bahnschrift & DIN (definitely free)

  #148  
Old September 12th 17, 06:02 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.sys.mac.apps,rec.photo.digital
Chaya Eve
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Posts: 94
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 06:09:35 +0200, Andreas Rutishauser
wrote:

Based on Mayayana's recent DIN 1451 font suggestion it looks like his
suggestion of Bahnschrift (literally "road font") is a far better free
road-sign font selection than Roadgeek was!


literally Bahn is railway, road would be Strasse


I had first put the word into Google translate which said the same thing,
but having taken German when I was in high school, I also know about the
autobahn, which you could consider the "auto track" but I translated it to
road on my own initiative.
  #149  
Old September 12th 17, 06:30 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Andre G. Isaak
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Posts: 18
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

In article ,
Your Name wrote:

On 2017-09-12 00:31:18 +0000, Chaya Eve said:

Like you, I didn't realize the Microsoft implementation of the DIN 1451
font named Bahnschrift was on the latest Windows 10 either, until you
mentioned it.

Moving forward, if both Mac and Windows can use the same DIN 1451 font,
that will be the final solution.

Looking for what's on the Mac, the word "DIN" only shows up once.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ded_with_macOS

So the question is whether the Mac DIN 1451 font is the same font name as
the Windows DIN 1451 native font.


No, there is no "Bahnschrift" font installed by default on the Mac.

According to Apple's Support pages, two "DIN" fonts (which may or may
not be the the same as you want) /were/ included with Mac OS X
Mavericks (10.9) released in 2013,
DIN Condensed Bold.ttf
DIN Condensed Bold
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201375

BUT they are not included in newest Mac OS X Sierra (10.12) released in 2016.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206872


Yes, they are. For some reason they have been omitted from that
document, but they are included with the Sierra installer.

Andre

--
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  #150  
Old September 12th 17, 06:32 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.sys.mac.apps,rec.photo.digital
Andre G. Isaak
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Posts: 18
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

In article ,
nospam wrote:

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

I found the Wikipedia page vague in terms of legality.


relying on wikipedia for a source of legal advice is an incredibly
stupid idea.


Also, the wikipedia page is discussing a *typeface*, not a digital font.
Digitizations available from different vendors will each be governed by
their own EULAs.

Andre

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail service.
 




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