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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 18th 13, 11:29 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
J. Clarke[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,273
Default [SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"

In article 2013091718524111272-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says...

On 2013-09-17 18:38:55 -0700, "J. Clarke" said:

In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...


Stores that sell guns in Florida are required to conduct background
checks. Not to worry, though, if you don't think you will pass. Just
go to a flea market and buy a gun. Don't want to wait until the
weekend for the flea market? Look on Craigslist and buy one today.
No background checks required by either seller.


Which is the general exception for private sales, which is a nod to the
reality that there is no practical way to police private sales of
firearms. When Grandpa kicks it and Grandma wants to get rid of his
guns, she's not going to consult a lawyer to find out that she has to do
background checks. That's the reality that Congress was dealing with,
and making a criminal out of Grandma is a political non-starter.


In California all firearms transactions have to be conducted through a
dealer. Private sales must be facilitated by a dealer, the ten day
waiting period and background check is mandatory.


That's fine. How do they enforce it? You can pass a law that says that
all dogs are now cats but that won't make it so.

"In California, only licensed California firearms dealers who possess a
valid Certificate of Eligibility (COE) are authorized to engage in
retail sales of firearms. These retail sales require the purchaser to
provide personal identifier information for the Dealer Record of Sale
(DROS) document that the firearms dealer must submit to the DOJ. There
is a mandatory 10-day waiting period before the firearms dealer can
deliver the firearm to the purchaser. During this 10-day waiting
period, the DOJ conducts a firearms eligibility background check to
ensure the purchaser is not prohibited from lawfully possessing
firearms. Although there are exceptions, generally all firearms
purchasers must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a long gun
(rifle or shotgun) and 21 years of age to purchase a handgun (pistol or
revolver). Additionally, purchasers must be California residents with a
valid driver?s license or identification card issued by the California
Department of Motor Vehicles.
Generally, it is illegal for any person who is not a California
licensed firearms dealer (private party) to sell or transfer a firearm
to another non-licensed person (private party) unless the sale is
completed through a licensed California firearms dealer. A ?Private
Party Transfer? (PPT) can be conducted at any licensed California
firearms dealership that sells handguns. The buyer and seller must
complete the required DROS document in person at the licensed firearms
dealership and deliver the firearm to the dealer who will retain
possession of the firearm during the mandatory 10-day waiting period.
In addition to the applicable state fees, the firearms dealer may
charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the PPT.
The infrequent transfer of firearms between immediate family members is
exempt from the law requiring PPTs to be conducted through a licensed
firearms dealer. For purposes of this exemption, ?immediate family
member? means parent and child, and grandparent and grandchild but does
not include brothers or sisters. (Pen. Code, § 16720.) Please note that
if the firearm being transferred is a handgun, the transferee must
comply with the Handgun Safety Certificate requirement described below,
prior to taking possession of the firearm. Within
30 days of the transfer, the transferee must also submit a report of
the transaction to the DOJ. To obtain the required report form (Report
of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction BOF 4544A),
either contact the DOJ Bureau of Firearms at (916) 227-7527 or download
the form from the DOJ?s website at
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/forms.
The reclaiming of a pawned firearm is subject to the DROS and 10-day
waiting period requirements."


If there is something in there about private sales please trim the rest
and point it out. Cutting and pasting vast quantities of legalese
without isolating the part that supports your argument suggests that you
have not read it, and I can't be assed to wade through it to see if you
actually found something relevant.

  #22  
Old September 18th 13, 01:26 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
J. Clarke[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,273
Default [SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"

In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:38:55 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , tonycooper214
says...

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 11:46:24 +1200, Eric Stevens
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 17:37:17 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , tonycooper214
says...

On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 14:49:31 -0400, PeterN
wrote:

On 9/17/2013 1:40 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 09:41:57 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-09-17 08:23:10 -0700, George Kerby said:




On 9/16/13 9:33 AM, in article ,
"Bowser" wrote:

On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 10:25:25 -0400, Alan Browne
wrote:

On 2013.09.06 22:13 , PeterN wrote:
On 9/6/2013 4:45 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2013.09.05 22:25 , Michael Benveniste wrote:
On 9/5/2013 1:21 PM, Bowser wrote:

Let's see what you've got. For Sale is due October 6th, 2013.

I won't be in Washington D.C. this month, so I can't submit a picture
of the Capitol or the White House.

They sold out a long time ago.

True. But it's on ongoing sale.

Confirmed then: they are prostitutes.

Now, now, there's no need to insult prostitutes. I'll take them over
politicians any day.


Is there a difference?

Have you ever been satisfied with any encounter with a politician?
With a prostitute there is always the promise of some sort of
satisfaction, however fleeting that might be.

Actually, I've had one experience in dealing with a politician, and no
experience at all dealing with a prostitute. My US Representative did
meet with me, and did take care of a problem for me. He was quite
efficient.


that was one politician that help.

Well, I asked one to help and he did so.

When over 90% of the people surveyed want to ban gun ownership to people
with mental problems, whey hasn't backround check legislation passed.
http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

That isn't an example of a experience with a politician. While I
agree with you on the need - although I would take it further and have
much more stringent gun controls - you brought up comparing a personal
experience with a politician vs a personal experience with a
prostitute.

Besides, background check legislation was enacted 20 years ago, so the
politicians can be forgiven for not passing the same law again.

Tell them in Washington. :-(

Stores that sell guns in Florida are required to conduct background
checks. Not to worry, though, if you don't think you will pass. Just
go to a flea market and buy a gun. Don't want to wait until the
weekend for the flea market? Look on Craigslist and buy one today.
No background checks required by either seller.


Which is the general exception for private sales, which is a nod to the
reality that there is no practical way to police private sales of
firearms. When Grandpa kicks it and Grandma wants to get rid of his
guns, she's not going to consult a lawyer to find out that she has to do
background checks. That's the reality that Congress was dealing with,
and making a criminal out of Grandma is a political non-starter.


It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could
require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed
retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this
state.


Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun
laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea
that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist
anyway. Now what?

That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer the
gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in
danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come
to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market
to sell it.


rolling eyes

Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean
ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to
dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she
has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and
get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer
for her as well?

Heck, just ban private sales of everything unless they happen at a gun
shop. Gotta protect Grandma you know.

Congress deals with the reality that the NRA dreams up.


You go on believing that.


  #24  
Old September 18th 13, 03:39 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default [SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"

On 2013-09-18 03:29:31 -0700, "J. Clarke" said:

If there is something in there about private sales please trim the rest
and point it out. Cutting and pasting vast quantities of legalese
without isolating the part that supports your argument suggests that you
have not read it, and I can't be assed to wade through it to see if you
actually found something relevant.


I have more than read it, Living in California and being a gun owner I
actually comprehend it. As a retired peace officer I actually take the
time to read most of the laws, codes, and regulations which impact my
life. I copied the entire section as it covered the procedure for
purchase, private sale, and transfer between family members for
firearms in California. It is not always the best move to ignore
verbiage because you consider it legalese.

Here is the bit pertaining to private sales:

"It is illegal for any person who is not a California licensed firearms
dealer (private party) to sell or transfer a firearm to another
non-licensed person (private party) unless the sale is completed
through a licensed California firearms dealer. A “Private Party
Transfer” (PPT) can be conducted at any licensed California firearms
dealership that sells handguns. The buyer and seller must complete the
required DROS document in person at the licensed firearms dealership
and deliver the firearm to the dealer who will retain possession of the
firearm during the mandatory 10-day waiting period. In addition to the
applicable state fees, the firearms dealer may charge a fee not to
exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the PPT."


Naturally there are going to be firearms which are obtained illegally
in California and there are consequences when those are discovered.
There are also implications for those gun owners living in other states
who change residence to California.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

  #25  
Old September 18th 13, 10:04 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
J. Clarke[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,273
Default [SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"

In article 2013091807392127544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says...

On 2013-09-18 03:29:31 -0700, "J. Clarke" said:

If there is something in there about private sales please trim the rest
and point it out. Cutting and pasting vast quantities of legalese
without isolating the part that supports your argument suggests that you
have not read it, and I can't be assed to wade through it to see if you
actually found something relevant.


I have more than read it, Living in California and being a gun owner I
actually comprehend it. As a retired peace officer I actually take the
time to read most of the laws, codes, and regulations which impact my
life. I copied the entire section as it covered the procedure for
purchase, private sale, and transfer between family members for
firearms in California. It is not always the best move to ignore
verbiage because you consider it legalese.

Here is the bit pertaining to private sales:

"It is illegal for any person who is not a California licensed firearms
dealer (private party) to sell or transfer a firearm to another
non-licensed person (private party) unless the sale is completed
through a licensed California firearms dealer. A ?Private Party
Transfer? (PPT) can be conducted at any licensed California firearms
dealership that sells handguns. The buyer and seller must complete the
required DROS document in person at the licensed firearms dealership
and deliver the firearm to the dealer who will retain possession of the
firearm during the mandatory 10-day waiting period. In addition to the
applicable state fees, the firearms dealer may charge a fee not to
exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the PPT."


Naturally there are going to be firearms which are obtained illegally
in California and there are consequences when those are discovered.
There are also implications for those gun owners living in other states
who change residence to California.


I see nothing in there that make the law enforceable. As written it is
a symbolic gesture. Our hypothetical Grandma is unlikely to be aware of
that procedure and being unaware of it is not going to follow it. So
what do you do about her? And if the firearm in question is never used
in the commission of crime subsequently, how does the state even become
aware that she did it?

As a retired peace officer I would expect you above all people to
understand the problem with enforcing that law.
  #26  
Old September 18th 13, 10:04 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
J. Clarke[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,273
Default [SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"

In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could
require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed
retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this
state.


Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun
laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea
that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist
anyway. Now what?


Grandma is probably quite unaware of many extant laws. If Grampa's
estate include meth lab equipment, a stash of marijuana, a computer
loaded with image files of naked children, or anything obtained
illegally, she might innocently offer them for sale. We don't pass or
not pass laws based on people's knowledge of what is, or is not,
legal.


Meaningless noise. Grandma has disobeyed your law. Now what do you do?

That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer the
gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in
danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come
to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market
to sell it.


rolling eyes

Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean
ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to
dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she
has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and
get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer
for her as well?


If you want to make a case for something, do it with some connection
to a logical reason for your position. There is no logical connection
for a background check on the sale of fishing equipment.


Your argument is that Grandma selling something on Craigslist is
dangerous for Grandma. Now it is up to you to explain why selling a
firearm on Craigslist is more dangerous to Grandma than selling a camera
or a bicycle or a fishing rod.

While I would not advise Grandma to advertise expensive items of any
sort on Craigslist if the sale involves strangers coming to Grandma's
house when only Grandma is there, there are certain items that are
more likely to attract the attention of those "mean ugly looking"
people. Guns is one such category.


Well, that pretty much sums it up. To you people who own firearms are
all in Group W. When you actually meet a few get back to us.

Heck, just ban private sales of everything unless they happen at a gun
shop. Gotta protect Grandma you know.


Yeah, that goes along with the NRA bull**** about "only outlaws will
have guns".


You're the one who brought protecting Grandma from mean ugly looking
mother-stabbers and father rapers into this. So are you the NRA?

Congress deals with the reality that the NRA dreams up.


You go on believing that.

Like something like 80 to 90 percent of the population, I believe in
the need for stricter gun controls. The NRA, though, has dreamed up
the "reality" that our representatives should not represent us. The
dream is accompanied by generous donations to campaign funds and
threats that they will support any opposing candidate in the next
election.


You go on believing that.


  #27  
Old September 18th 13, 11:50 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default [SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"

On 2013-09-18 14:04:57 -0700, "J. Clarke" said:

In article 2013091807392127544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom,
says...

On 2013-09-18 03:29:31 -0700, "J. Clarke" said:

If there is something in there about private sales please trim the rest
and point it out. Cutting and pasting vast quantities of legalese
without isolating the part that supports your argument suggests that you
have not read it, and I can't be assed to wade through it to see if you
actually found something relevant.


I have more than read it, Living in California and being a gun owner I
actually comprehend it. As a retired peace officer I actually take the
time to read most of the laws, codes, and regulations which impact my
life. I copied the entire section as it covered the procedure for
purchase, private sale, and transfer between family members for
firearms in California. It is not always the best move to ignore
verbiage because you consider it legalese.

Here is the bit pertaining to private sales:

"It is illegal for any person who is not a California licensed firearms
dealer (private party) to sell or transfer a firearm to another
non-licensed person (private party) unless the sale is completed
through a licensed California firearms dealer. A ?Private Party
Transfer? (PPT) can be conducted at any licensed California firearms
dealership that sells handguns. The buyer and seller must complete the
required DROS document in person at the licensed firearms dealership
and deliver the firearm to the dealer who will retain possession of the
firearm during the mandatory 10-day waiting period. In addition to the
applicable state fees, the firearms dealer may charge a fee not to
exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the PPT."


Naturally there are going to be firearms which are obtained illegally
in California and there are consequences when those are discovered.
There are also implications for those gun owners living in other states
who change residence to California.


I see nothing in there that make the law enforceable. As written it is
a symbolic gesture.


Agreed. It is an anti-gun measure written by law makers ignorant of
guns & gun culture, who are pandering to the ant-gun lobby.

Our hypothetical Grandma is unlikely to be aware of
that procedure and being unaware of it is not going to follow it.


Well, she is a Florida Grandma, not a Californian. ;-)

So what do you do about her?


Nothing.

And if the firearm in question is never used
in the commission of crime subsequently, how does the state even become
aware that she did it?

As a retired peace officer I would expect you above all people to
understand the problem with enforcing that law.


Agreed, enforceability has always been the problem. That is one of the
reasons many firearms used in crimes in California are obtained
illegitimately. There is a lucrative black market in firearms run
across the State line from Nevada & Arizona. Possession of those guns
can, and does result in additional California weapons charges when
discovered. California Law enforcement agencies remain blissfully
ignorant of those illegally obtained firearms until they are used.

A Californian buyer of a handgun via private sale, who does not follow
the DROS procedure either out of ignorance, or to side-step the
background check can have legal problems down the road if it is ever
used in any capacity.

For the law abiding potential gun owner, background checks & a ten day
wait are a minor hurdle to overcome.
Concealed carry in California is a different issue. My retired PO
status gives me 50 State concealed carry privilege. I just have to
maintain an annual qualification rather than the quarterly
qualification when I was active.
....but that is simple enough and a fair amount of fun.

Here is my current carry weapon, a Kimber Custom 1911, CDP II 45ACP.
http://db.tt/hScSCe9b
....and what it can do (to paper) in the right hands.
http://db.tt/FszZBooz
http://db.tt/zLZHSeOX


--
Regards,

Savageduck

  #28  
Old September 19th 13, 12:28 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
J. Clarke[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,273
Default [SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"

In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:04:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , tonycooper214
says...

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could
require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed
retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this
state.

Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun
laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea
that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist
anyway. Now what?

Grandma is probably quite unaware of many extant laws. If Grampa's
estate include meth lab equipment, a stash of marijuana, a computer
loaded with image files of naked children, or anything obtained
illegally, she might innocently offer them for sale. We don't pass or
not pass laws based on people's knowledge of what is, or is not,
legal.


Meaningless noise. Grandma has disobeyed your law. Now what do you do?


Prevent it. Require the refusal of any advertisement for a gun in any
medium unless the advertiser is an authorized seller of guns. We
already have restrictions in place on advertisers that the medium must
observe. We require certain contractors to have a license number to
advertise. We require sellers of automobiles who are dealers to
reveal that they are dealers. There are many other restrictions in
place.


Have you been successful in enforcing those rules on Craiglist? How
about community bulletin boards? There are many commonplace venues for
advertising that are not subject to editorial control.

That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer the
gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in
danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come
to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market
to sell it.

rolling eyes

Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean
ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to
dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she
has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and
get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer
for her as well?

If you want to make a case for something, do it with some connection
to a logical reason for your position. There is no logical connection
for a background check on the sale of fishing equipment.


Your argument is that Grandma selling something on Craigslist is
dangerous for Grandma. Now it is up to you to explain why selling a
firearm on Craigslist is more dangerous to Grandma than selling a camera
or a bicycle or a fishing rod.

Up to me? All it takes is a modicum of common sense to understand why
advertising the fact that you have a gun for sale can attract people
who would not respond to an ad for a camera or a fishing rod.
Craigslist has a search option, and the bad guys aren't searching for
"Nikon" or "Daiwa".


I see. So the only people who might want to buy a gun are criminals.
Gotcha.


While I would not advise Grandma to advertise expensive items of any
sort on Craigslist if the sale involves strangers coming to Grandma's
house when only Grandma is there, there are certain items that are
more likely to attract the attention of those "mean ugly looking"
people. Guns is one such category.


Well, that pretty much sums it up. To you people who own firearms are
all in Group W. When you actually meet a few get back to us.


Then I'm in Group W. I own two firearms. While no survey is totally
accurate, most place the number of Americans who are in favor of
stricter gun laws at 80 to 90 percent of the population. Unless you
think that only 10 to 20 percent of Americans own a firearm, then
there are many of us firearm owners who support stricter gun control
laws.

Heck, just ban private sales of everything unless they happen at a gun
shop. Gotta protect Grandma you know.

Yeah, that goes along with the NRA bull**** about "only outlaws will
have guns".


You're the one who brought protecting Grandma from mean ugly looking
mother-stabbers and father rapers into this. So are you the NRA?

Congress deals with the reality that the NRA dreams up.

You go on believing that.

Like something like 80 to 90 percent of the population, I believe in
the need for stricter gun controls. The NRA, though, has dreamed up
the "reality" that our representatives should not represent us. The
dream is accompanied by generous donations to campaign funds and
threats that they will support any opposing candidate in the next
election.


You go on believing that.


Can you dispute it? With a straight face?

Dragging this back to photography, I've met these gun owners:
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Hobbie...ction-Shooting



  #29  
Old September 19th 13, 01:33 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
J. Clarke[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,273
Default [SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"

In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:04:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , tonycooper214
says...

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could
require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed
retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this
state.

Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun
laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea
that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist
anyway. Now what?

Grandma is probably quite unaware of many extant laws. If Grampa's
estate include meth lab equipment, a stash of marijuana, a computer
loaded with image files of naked children, or anything obtained
illegally, she might innocently offer them for sale. We don't pass or
not pass laws based on people's knowledge of what is, or is not,
legal.


Meaningless noise. Grandma has disobeyed your law. Now what do you do?


Prevent it. Require the refusal of any advertisement for a gun in any
medium unless the advertiser is an authorized seller of guns. We
already have restrictions in place on advertisers that the medium must
observe. We require certain contractors to have a license number to
advertise. We require sellers of automobiles who are dealers to
reveal that they are dealers. There are many other restrictions in
place.


Fine, pass such a law and figure out a way to make it stick. Hint--
internet search engines are not necessarily hosted in your state or even
in the US. If they're not in the US there is absolutely nothing that US
law can do about them.

You seem to be big on passing more and more and more and more laws,
without regard to whether any of them actually accomplish anything other
than killing trees.

That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer

the
gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in
danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come
to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market
to sell it.

rolling eyes

Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean
ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to
dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she
has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and
get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer
for her as well?

If you want to make a case for something, do it with some connection
to a logical reason for your position. There is no logical connection
for a background check on the sale of fishing equipment.


Your argument is that Grandma selling something on Craigslist is
dangerous for Grandma. Now it is up to you to explain why selling a
firearm on Craigslist is more dangerous to Grandma than selling a camera
or a bicycle or a fishing rod.

Up to me? All it takes is a modicum of common sense to understand why
advertising the fact that you have a gun for sale can attract people
who would not respond to an ad for a camera or a fishing rod.
Craigslist has a search option, and the bad guys aren't searching for
"Nikon" or "Daiwa".


They aren't? So where _do_ all these terrorists who are such a deadly
danger that police prevent them from taking pictures of bridges and the
like get their equipment? Or are terrorist bombers OK around grandma?

While I would not advise Grandma to advertise expensive items of any
sort on Craigslist if the sale involves strangers coming to Grandma's
house when only Grandma is there, there are certain items that are
more likely to attract the attention of those "mean ugly looking"
people. Guns is one such category.


Well, that pretty much sums it up. To you people who own firearms are
all in Group W. When you actually meet a few get back to us.


Then I'm in Group W. I own two firearms. While no survey is totally
accurate, most place the number of Americans who are in favor of
stricter gun laws at 80 to 90 percent of the population. Unless you
think that only 10 to 20 percent of Americans own a firearm, then
there are many of us firearm owners who support stricter gun control
laws.


You're the one who is portraying firearms purchasers as being
automatically suspect and unsafe to be around. If that is the case then
you should be suspicious of yourself and your motives. Why _do_ you
need guns anyway?

Heck, just ban private sales of everything unless they happen at a gun
shop. Gotta protect Grandma you know.

Yeah, that goes along with the NRA bull**** about "only outlaws will
have guns".


You're the one who brought protecting Grandma from mean ugly looking
mother-stabbers and father rapers into this. So are you the NRA?

Congress deals with the reality that the NRA dreams up.

You go on believing that.

Like something like 80 to 90 percent of the population, I believe in
the need for stricter gun controls. The NRA, though, has dreamed up
the "reality" that our representatives should not represent us. The
dream is accompanied by generous donations to campaign funds and
threats that they will support any opposing candidate in the next
election.


You go on believing that.


Can you dispute it? With a straight face?


Have you ever looked beyond "80 to 90 percent" to find out what
"stricter gun controls" they want? And then compared those to the laws
actually in force?

Dragging this back to photography, I've met these gun owners:
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Hobbie...ction-Shooting


So that's what mother-stabbers and father-rapers look like. I always
pictured them more like Arlo Guthrie.


  #30  
Old September 19th 13, 02:40 AM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital
J. Clarke[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,273
Default [SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"

In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 19:28:19 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , tonycooper214
says...

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:04:59 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , tonycooper214
says...

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could
require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed
retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this
state.

Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun
laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea
that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist
anyway. Now what?

Grandma is probably quite unaware of many extant laws. If Grampa's
estate include meth lab equipment, a stash of marijuana, a computer
loaded with image files of naked children, or anything obtained
illegally, she might innocently offer them for sale. We don't pass or
not pass laws based on people's knowledge of what is, or is not,
legal.

Meaningless noise. Grandma has disobeyed your law. Now what do you do?

Prevent it. Require the refusal of any advertisement for a gun in any
medium unless the advertiser is an authorized seller of guns. We
already have restrictions in place on advertisers that the medium must
observe. We require certain contractors to have a license number to
advertise. We require sellers of automobiles who are dealers to
reveal that they are dealers. There are many other restrictions in
place.


Have you been successful in enforcing those rules on Craiglist?


What rules? No rules exist today. There should be rules, but no
rules will ever be put into effect in Florida. The NRA owns the
Florida legislature. This is the state that tried to pass a law that
a pediatrician should be fined $1 million - that's no typo - for
initiating any discussion with a patient or patient's family about gun
safety practices in the home...the "Docs and Glocks" law that was
struck down by the courts.

This is also the state that passed legislation that forbade cities
from passing any local ordinances regarding gun control. No city in
Florida can pass a local ordinance banning the carrying - open or
concealed - a weapon in a children's park or school. Any gun law must
be a state law.

How
about community bulletin boards? There are many commonplace venues for
advertising that are not subject to editorial control.

All I'm advocating is that *some* reasonable restrictions on the sale
of guns should be imposed. There is no anticipation that all avenues
can - or should be - closed. I think it's reasonable to ban gun sales
at flea markets where anyone can walk up and purchase any weapon of
any kind. I don't think it's reasonable to attempt to ban, by law,
that "Grandma" can't sell her deceased husband's handgun to a friend
or relative.

And, by the way, I would exempt collector items like this one:
http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...6-21-07-XL.jpg
I inherited it from my father, but have since given it to my daughter.

That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer the
gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in
danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come
to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market
to sell it.

rolling eyes

Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean
ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to
dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she
has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and
get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer
for her as well?

If you want to make a case for something, do it with some connection
to a logical reason for your position. There is no logical connection
for a background check on the sale of fishing equipment.

Your argument is that Grandma selling something on Craigslist is
dangerous for Grandma. Now it is up to you to explain why selling a
firearm on Craigslist is more dangerous to Grandma than selling a camera
or a bicycle or a fishing rod.

Up to me? All it takes is a modicum of common sense to understand why
advertising the fact that you have a gun for sale can attract people
who would not respond to an ad for a camera or a fishing rod.
Craigslist has a search option, and the bad guys aren't searching for
"Nikon" or "Daiwa".


I see. So the only people who might want to buy a gun are criminals.
Gotcha.


Nothing about the suggestion prohibits anyone from selling or buying a
gun. All it does is impose a restriction on where the gun is bought
or sold. Guns could still be sold through or to, and bought from,
authorized sellers that follow the laws.


Tony, put some more tinfoil in your hat and wipe the foam off your
mouth.




 




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