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#41
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Major sensor technology developments
In article , Ron C
wrote: It also doesn't address what becomes of the photons rejected by the [narrow or wide] RGB filters. Those obviously are lost in a Bayer sensor. That's always been my understanding. I'm trying to get a grip on nospam's continual insistence that "all photons are captured by at least one sensel" frequently followed by "nothing is wasted." you're assuming that a sensel works in isolation. that's false. obviously, one sensel in isolation will capture only one component and 'waste' the other two. bayer sensors do not work that way. a bayer sensor uses *all* sensels for the entire image. nothing is wasted. each sensel uses itself and its neighbors (as many as 25 in typical implementations) to accurately measure one component and calculate the other two. subject detail spans more than one sensel, thereby guaranteeing that nothing is 'wasted' and detail is accurately measured. it works exceptionally well. a better way to think about bayer is *not* as an rgb device, but as a luma/chroma device, which samples luminance at the full rate of the sensor and chrominance at half the rate. the colour of each sensel does not matter and the eye can't resolve that much chroma detail anyway. foveon samples both luma and chroma at the same rate, but since bayer is already resolving more chroma detail than the eye can see, foveon is trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. ~~ I suspect a problem with definitions and terminology that is creating a communication barrier. more accurately that some people don't fully understand how it works. |
#42
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Major sensor technology developments
On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 20:23:47 +0100, Alfred Molon
wrote: In article x4qdnQRdUaQ-fBPBnZ2dnUU7- , says... It also doesn't address what becomes of the photons rejected by the [narrow or wide] RGB filters. Those obviously are lost in a Bayer sensor. Not according to nospam. I think it's time to ignore him on this subject. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#43
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Major sensor technology developments
On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 20:23:50 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Ron C wrote: It also doesn't address what becomes of the photons rejected by the [narrow or wide] RGB filters. Those obviously are lost in a Bayer sensor. That's always been my understanding. I'm trying to get a grip on nospam's continual insistence that "all photons are captured by at least one sensel" frequently followed by "nothing is wasted." you're assuming that a sensel works in isolation. that's false. obviously, one sensel in isolation will capture only one component and 'waste' the other two. bayer sensors do not work that way. a bayer sensor uses *all* sensels for the entire image. nothing is wasted. No sensel is ated, certainly. But some photons must inevitably fall on photons of a different color sensitivity. Such photons do not pass the sensel's colour filter. Nor are they diveryed to a sensel of the appropriate color sensitivity. In other words they do not get used to help creat an image. i.e. they are wasted. each sensel uses itself and its neighbors (as many as 25 in typical implementations) to accurately measure one component and calculate the other two. subject detail spans more than one sensel, thereby guaranteeing that nothing is 'wasted' and detail is accurately measured. it works exceptionally well. You confusing wastage of sensel information with wastage of photons. Some photons must inevitably fail to find their way into a sensel's trap. a better way to think about bayer is *not* as an rgb device, but as a luma/chroma device, which samples luminance at the full rate of the sensor and chrominance at half the rate. the colour of each sensel does not matter and the eye can't resolve that much chroma detail anyway. foveon samples both luma and chroma at the same rate, but since bayer is already resolving more chroma detail than the eye can see, foveon is trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Foveon has nothing to with this matter. ~~ I suspect a problem with definitions and terminology that is creating a communication barrier. more accurately that some people don't fully understand how it works. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#44
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Major sensor technology developments
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote: I'm trying to get a grip on nospam's continual insistence that "all photons are captured by at least one sensel" frequently followed by "nothing is wasted." you're assuming that a sensel works in isolation. that's false. obviously, one sensel in isolation will capture only one component and 'waste' the other two. bayer sensors do not work that way. a bayer sensor uses *all* sensels for the entire image. nothing is wasted. No sensel is ated, certainly. But some photons must inevitably fall on photons of a different color sensitivity. Such photons do not pass the sensel's colour filter. Nor are they diveryed to a sensel of the appropriate color sensitivity. In other words they do not get used to help creat an image. i.e. they are wasted. they are not wasted. nothing is wasted. again, if there was any waste, there would be losses and there are not. the sensor's qe would be lower, for one, and it isn't. colours would be wrong and they aren't. each sensel uses itself and its neighbors (as many as 25 in typical implementations) to accurately measure one component and calculate the other two. subject detail spans more than one sensel, thereby guaranteeing that nothing is 'wasted' and detail is accurately measured. it works exceptionally well. You confusing wastage of sensel information with wastage of photons. Some photons must inevitably fail to find their way into a sensel's trap. i'm not the least bit confused about this. a better way to think about bayer is *not* as an rgb device, but as a luma/chroma device, which samples luminance at the full rate of the sensor and chrominance at half the rate. the colour of each sensel does not matter and the eye can't resolve that much chroma detail anyway. foveon samples both luma and chroma at the same rate, but since bayer is already resolving more chroma detail than the eye can see, foveon is trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Foveon has nothing to with this matter. it's a point of comparison. |
#45
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Major sensor technology developments
On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 21:43:05 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: I'm trying to get a grip on nospam's continual insistence that "all photons are captured by at least one sensel" frequently followed by "nothing is wasted." you're assuming that a sensel works in isolation. that's false. obviously, one sensel in isolation will capture only one component and 'waste' the other two. bayer sensors do not work that way. a bayer sensor uses *all* sensels for the entire image. nothing is wasted. No sensel is ated, certainly. But some photons must inevitably fall on photons of a different color sensitivity. Such photons do not pass the sensel's colour filter. Nor are they diveryed to a sensel of the appropriate color sensitivity. In other words they do not get used to help creat an image. i.e. they are wasted. they are not wasted. nothing is wasted. again, if there was any waste, there would be losses and there are not. the sensor's qe would be lower, for one, and it isn't. colours would be wrong and they aren't. Colours and levels don't enter the picture (pun) until after the raw sensor data undergoes considerable processing. each sensel uses itself and its neighbors (as many as 25 in typical implementations) to accurately measure one component and calculate the other two. subject detail spans more than one sensel, thereby guaranteeing that nothing is 'wasted' and detail is accurately measured. it works exceptionally well. You confusing wastage of sensel information with wastage of photons. Some photons must inevitably fail to find their way into a sensel's trap. i'm not the least bit confused about this. a better way to think about bayer is *not* as an rgb device, but as a luma/chroma device, which samples luminance at the full rate of the sensor and chrominance at half the rate. the colour of each sensel does not matter and the eye can't resolve that much chroma detail anyway. foveon samples both luma and chroma at the same rate, but since bayer is already resolving more chroma detail than the eye can see, foveon is trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Foveon has nothing to with this matter. it's a point of comparison. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#46
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Major sensor technology developments
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote: I'm trying to get a grip on nospam's continual insistence that "all photons are captured by at least one sensel" frequently followed by "nothing is wasted." you're assuming that a sensel works in isolation. that's false. obviously, one sensel in isolation will capture only one component and 'waste' the other two. bayer sensors do not work that way. a bayer sensor uses *all* sensels for the entire image. nothing is wasted. No sensel is ated, certainly. But some photons must inevitably fall on photons of a different color sensitivity. Such photons do not pass the sensel's colour filter. Nor are they diveryed to a sensel of the appropriate color sensitivity. In other words they do not get used to help creat an image. i.e. they are wasted. they are not wasted. nothing is wasted. again, if there was any waste, there would be losses and there are not. the sensor's qe would be lower, for one, and it isn't. colours would be wrong and they aren't. Colours and levels don't enter the picture (pun) until after the raw sensor data undergoes considerable processing. in other words, no wasted photons. |
#47
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Major sensor technology developments
On 3/18/2019 5:35 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN wrote: full colour info at any pixel resulting in less colour aliasing = high effective sensor resolution. except that foevon cameras omit the anti-alias filter, resulting in *more* aliasing, not less. they also lie about the number of pixels in an attempt to fool people into thinking the sensor is better than it actually is, resulting in the effective resolution being *less* than competing cameras. Like the Nikon 800E https://www.lifepixel.com/photography-gear/anti-aliasing-low-pass-filter-removal And high quality MF cameras. the nikon d800e and mf cameras have a significantly higher sampling frequency to where an aa filter is not critical. there are occasional artifacts, but it's rare. the sigma cameras sample at a *much* lower rate and overrun with artifacts. You have made my point. -- PeterN |
#48
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Major sensor technology developments
On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 06:55:35 -0400, nospam
wrote: In article , Eric Stevens wrote: I'm trying to get a grip on nospam's continual insistence that "all photons are captured by at least one sensel" frequently followed by "nothing is wasted." you're assuming that a sensel works in isolation. that's false. obviously, one sensel in isolation will capture only one component and 'waste' the other two. bayer sensors do not work that way. a bayer sensor uses *all* sensels for the entire image. nothing is wasted. No sensel is ated, certainly. But some photons must inevitably fall on photons of a different color sensitivity. Such photons do not pass the sensel's colour filter. Nor are they diveryed to a sensel of the appropriate color sensitivity. In other words they do not get used to help creat an image. i.e. they are wasted. they are not wasted. nothing is wasted. again, if there was any waste, there would be losses and there are not. the sensor's qe would be lower, for one, and it isn't. colours would be wrong and they aren't. Colours and levels don't enter the picture (pun) until after the raw sensor data undergoes considerable processing. in other words, no wasted photons. But only after they have been caught. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
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