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#21
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Palestinians Under Attack
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:12:01 -0500, Stephen Bishop
wrote: On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:16:44 -0600, "HEMI - Powered" wrote: And, YOUR country needs to get off it's ass and take it's place as a key member of the international community and take decisive action to protect itself and it's friends, instead of sitting on the sidelines. I'll add something from a Brit expatriot friend of mine who is disgusted at how coddling to Muslim extremism his home country has become. He said, "Great Britain used to rule the waves; now they wave the rules." So sad, but true. That goes *so* far back. The actual words are "Britannia used to rule the waves; now they waive the rules". "If I Were Britannia I'd Waive the Rules" was a song tile on a 1976 album by Budgie. A take-off, of course on "Rule, Britannia" written in 1740 by Thomas Arne based on a poem by John Thomson. When Britain first at Heav'n's command Arose from out the azure main; This was the charter of the land, And guardian angels sang this strain; Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves: Britons never will be slaves. -- Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida |
#22
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Palestinians Under Attack
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:09:02 -0600, "HEMI - Powered"
wrote: Stephen Bishop added these comments in the current discussion du jour ... Hamas is not a terrorist organisation. With just that one statement you've laid down your cards. Are you saying, then, that Hamas is not responsible for the constant rocket attacks into civilian areas of Israel? Stephen, I'm not Jewish but then again I am hardly anti-Zionist. It has LONG struck me as both unfair and extremely anti-Semetic that the entire world is so against Jews and their right to a homeland. Yes, Hamas IS a terrorist organization just like a significant portion of the PLO was. It is also a militant group within a more moderate government in Palestine and that controlling the Arab side of Gaza. Since this is all true, what do you think the real problem is here? I don't like war, ANY war. There are SOME that are both necessary and justified, such as WWII, and MANY which are neither, such as Korea, Viet Nam, most likely Iraq, and MANY more minor incursions. But, wrt Israel and the Palestians - not to mention many other Arab countries in the Middle East - there has been a continual struggle since UN Partitioning the year I was born in 1947. Talking about it doesn't help, actually minor military action doesn't help much either. I give the Israelis a LOT of credit for taking the view that they simply won't take agression or any other form of **** from ANYBODY and will take decisive action to defend themselves from same. What I do NOT understand is WHY the UN - presumably representing ALL nations - continues to advocate peace keepers, cease fires, and peace talks when what it TAKES is for the UN to do something about the anti-Zionists. Can't do that? I don't believe it for a minute. Don't want to do that? I completely believe that. So, considering that the US and it's major allies of convenience can't or won't take direct action to help the Israelis despite MANY statements of support, I also do NOT understand why WE just don't STFU and get out of the way. I think we are on the same page. And I'm speaking as a veteran, one who was fortunate enough to not actually being in a shooting war. Nobody wants war, but the Israelis keep getting a bad deal just for doing what they have to do to survive as a nation. I'm not Jewish, either, but I greatly respect them for what they are constantly going through over there and for the very difficult decisions they often have to make. |
#23
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Palestinians Under Attack
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:41:35 +0000, Chris H
wrote: In message , HEMI - Powered writes Stephen Bishop added these comments in the current discussion du jour ... Hamas is not a terrorist organisation. With just that one statement you've laid down your cards. Are you saying, then, that Hamas is not responsible for the constant rocket attacks into civilian areas of Israel? Stephen, I'm not Jewish but then again I am hardly anti-Zionist. It has LONG struck me as both unfair and extremely anti-Semetic that the entire world is so against Jews and their right to a homeland. Why should a religious group take land from others? Should the Catholics have a homeland? Should the Moslems have a homeland? 1. They took land from nobody. It was given to them by the UN and they have been in defensive wars ever since. 2. It isn't a religious issue as far as Israel is concerned. It's ethnic. Israel is a secular democracy. Yes, Hamas IS a terrorist organization just like a significant portion of the PLO was. Not at all Hamas is a legally elected and legitimate authority in Gaza. It is defending it's people from the onslaught and slaughter of civilians by Israel Elected terrorists are still terrorists. You keep harping about "slaughter of civilians" while ignoring the reality of what the Palestinians have been trying to do to Israel for decades. Today it's Hamas; yesterday it was the PLO. Their goal is to rid Palestine of the Jews. The only Jews they want living in that land are ones who live in subjection to Islamic law as second class citizens. I was in the military stationed in Greece when the PLO murdered dozens of innocent civilans in the Athens airport in the 1970's. You can't tell me that the Palestinians want a peaceful coexistence with Israel. I was there during the Yom Kippur war. Trust me, I was in a position to know who were the aggressors. You say the IDF is brutal. They have to be, they are surrounded by brutal enemies. Or do you perhaps have access to some documents from Hamas which state that they disavow the actions of the PLO and they seek a true peace with their Jewish neighbors? Do they condemn their own clerics when they rant about the Jews drinking the blood of children and preaching from parts of the Koran that refer to the Jews as pigs? I don't like war, ANY war. There are SOME that are both necessary and justified, such as WWII, Yes though it could have been avoided. and MANY which are neither, such as Korea, Viet Nam, most likely Iraq, and MANY more minor incursions. I agree. But, wrt Israel and the Palestians - not to mention many other Arab countries in the Middle East - there has been a continual struggle since UN Partitioning the year I was born in 1947. Talking about it doesn't help, actually minor military action doesn't help much either. The partitioning was a mistake. Israel should never have been formed. Giving in to terrorists was a mistake and they should have been rooted out not given land, And that's your prejudice talking. What I do NOT understand is WHY the UN - presumably representing ALL nations - continues to advocate peace keepers, cease fires, and peace talks when what it TAKES is for the UN to do something about the anti-Zionists. The anti-zionists are not the problem. The problem is the Israeli aggression from day one. Sorry, from day one it was the Arabs who were the aggressors trying to remove what they saw as the stain of a Jewish state in what they considered to be holy Muslim land. Can't do that? I don't believe it for a minute. Don't want to do that? I completely believe that. So, considering that the US and it's major allies of convenience can't or won't take direct action to help the Israelis despite MANY statements of support, I also do NOT understand why WE just don't STFU and get out of the way. I agree and the US will do in 2009/10 if Israel continues it's current course it will be sooner rather than latter Don't think for a minute that the US won't get involved directly if it comes to the point that the survival of Israel is at stake. |
#24
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Palestinians Under Attack
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:44:14 +0000, Chris H
wrote: In message , Stephen Bishop writes On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:57:50 +0000, Chris H wrote: In message , Stephen Bishop writes On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:25:35 +0000, Chris H wrote: Nothing like as effective and the tens of thousands of strikes on Palestinian civilians by the Israelis As much as you seem to want to believe otherwise, Israel does not deliberately target civilians. Period. With lines line that no one will take anything you say seriously You mean like your silly Waffen SS line that you keep repeating? No others have said the same including many international agencies and I note the Israeli cabinet have woken up to the fact that many of them are now in line for international war crimes trials and when Bush goes the US will not protect them You have no evidence to support that but there is much evidence to the contrary from many independent sources. Several filmed by TV crews. TV crews and "independent sources" have a habit of filming and reporting only what they want you to see. I see... as the US often claims ALL the worlds press ant media (except Fox News ) are in a concerted Anti- Israeli conspiracy... Interestingly no one else seems to think this. Actually apart from the several documented and irrefutable incidents of the IDF shooing at civilians (and specifically children) and clearly UN targets the IDf does not really care one way or the other who is in the area if they want to fire at a suspected target. I would think that is only because the Hamas militants don't care who gets in the way when they hide behind civilians. What do you expect to happen when they launch rockets from schools and store weapons in mosques? That Israel will just allow that to keep happening? Now none of that have even had any proof or evidence to back it up. However over the last 2 weeks *SEVERAL* separate and highly respected international organisations have provided documentary and irrefutable evidence that the IDF does use civilian human shields including woman and children, has targeted civilians. (I have seen that myself) and shelled medical and UN posts. Incidentally I note the whole of the UN disagrees with you .... except the US who also have no problem with shooting civilians. That's a completely irrational and stupid statement. It is factual and been proved many times. Much like the Waffen SS did for the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto No, nothing if the sort. The Nazis' goal was to rid the world of Jews. Israel's purpose in bottling up Gaza is simply to keep as many suicide bombers as possible behind locked doors. CRAP. The Israelis can say what they like it is what they do that counts. They are behaving like the Waffen SS Hardly. Just look at the comparisons to the Warsaw Ghetto.. Though youi will not be able to do that as it require looking at reality. SO Genocide is OK when you steal land and kill civilians. You're making the statement that genocide is fact when it is nonsense. Not according to the UN, Red Cross (not the Red Crescent who you would say are biased) and Amnesty international SO you don't expect the Palestinians to protect themselves as best they can from the IDF mimicking the Waffen SS? Lobbing a constant barrage of rockets at civilian population centers has nothing to do with self protection. Quite so. So Israel should stop and the Hamas would not need to defend itself wit the few rockets it has,. Hamas was shooting those rockets long before the IDF began their military action in Gaza. This is not true... I suggest you start again with the Basics. Hamas is a relatively new organisation that grew out of one of the other IDF killing sprees. They have been targeting civilian areas, not Israeli military targets. You're a fool if you actually believe they are "defending themselves" by shooting rockets into populated civilian areas. Well for every rocket Hamas fires the IDF fires 100 Precision guided munitions (which explains why for 13 dead Israelis there are over 400 Palestinian women and children dead. ) Hamas are firing in self defence against Israeli aggression I wonder how the "arab street" would react if Israel were launching thousands of low-tech missiles on an ongoing basis into Gaza. Ah, I see. Actually they launch hundreds of thousands of hi-tech missiles into Gaza... about 100 for every one the Palestinians fire in response. Please be specific, how would you respond if your neighbor were constantly shooting bullets at your house and constantly denied your right to exist and nobody else would deal with the situation? I would respond exactly as Hamas has done with the weapons at hand. Clearly Isreal has no problem with genocide and killing civilians so I would not see any problem with firing back in similar manner. Which is what Hamas is doing as it's only defence against genocide. Except it is Israel who has been doing the responding to the constant barrage of rockets, not the other way around. Not at all the IDF was murdering civilians long before Hamas turned up It is the IDF and Israelis who are murdering civilians. That's the propaganda. You keep swallowing it. Sorry... As a military person who has been to the ME and members of my family (who are all WASP) who have been to Israel I have seen the reality. Also the film from independent news teams does not lie or is EVERY non-Israeli /US in the world that reports from Isreal lying and in a conspiracy? Yes. There are people with axes to grind all over. The bottom line is that there will be no peace until the Muslims in that part of the world grant Israel the right to exist and stop the random terrorist attacks against civilians. Egypt and Israel negotiated peace and it has held. The other countries involved need to follow suit and then the Palestinian question can be addressed in a peaceful way. No the other hand as Israel is in breach of more UN resolutions and most of its leaders are likely to be on war crimes trials and it has murdered many thousands of civilians and Israel has from day one committed war crimes lets remove Israel and ship them to somewhere like Arizona where they and the US can continue their un-holy alliance. Israel lost long ago any moral high ground or support from the rest of the world though their own actions. , Chris, nobody is going to believe you as long as you continue to skew your facts with obvious propaganda codewords like "murdering civilians," "genocide," "war crimes," "Israeli aggression," and the ridiculous statement that firing rockets at civilians is an act of self-defense. Pure propaganda and pure rubbish. I'm surprised you haven't referred to Israel as the "Zionist Entity" since you have said that they have no right to live there. The fact is that neither side is innocent. If Israel has been accused of overreacting, it is because they have been taking these kinds of attacks and threats to their survival for decades. You'd do the same thing if all of your neighbors on your street said you have no right to live and took potshots at you every time you walked out your door. |
#25
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Palestinians Under Attack
HEMI - Powered wrote:
Chris H added these comments in the current discussion du jour ... Hamas is not a terrorist organisation. With just that one statement you've laid down your cards. It is a properly elected authority in Gaza. Their election is more solid than the last one GWB engineered. What difference does it make if Hamas is or is not a properly elected authority? First, YOUR country has NO business criticizing MY country in this. Fix it yourselves if you think you can. MY taxes pay Israel to murder innocent people. What IS important is that elected or not, Hamas most clearly is a terrorist/militant group that is bent on Israel's destruction. Just as Likud is a terrorist/militant group that is bent on the annexation of the West Bank after all of the natives have been driven out. -- Ray Fischer |
#26
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Palestinians Under Attack
Stephen Bishop wrote:
Chris H HEMI - Powered Chris H added these comments in the current discussion du jour ... Hamas is not a terrorist organisation. With just that one statement you've laid down your cards. It is a properly elected authority in Gaza. Their election is more solid than the last one GWB engineered. What difference does it make if Hamas is or is not a properly elected authority? Israel is attacking a legally elected government in it's own territory,. Sounds like an act of war... no wonder they are fighting back Sorry, that doesn't hold waterf Hamas fired first. That's an outright lie. In addition to killing people in Gaza during the supposed cease fire, Israel has also waged war against the people of Gaza by starving them and preventing people from travelling freely. -- Ray Fischer |
#27
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Palestinians Under Attack
HEMI - Powered wrote:
Stephen Bishop added these comments in the current discussion du jour ... Hamas is not a terrorist organisation. With just that one statement you've laid down your cards. Are you saying, then, that Hamas is not responsible for the constant rocket attacks into civilian areas of Israel? Stephen, I'm not Jewish but then again I am hardly anti-Zionist. It has LONG struck me as both unfair and extremely anti-Semetic that the entire world is so against Jews and their right to a homeland. Looks like the world is against Arabs and THEIR rights. You certainly are. Yes, Hamas IS a terrorist organization just like a significant portion of the PLO was. Just like a significant number of Israelis are. -- Ray Fischer |
#29
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Palestinians Under Attack
In message , Stephen Bishop
writes On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:31:43 +0000, Chris H wrote: In message , HEMI - Powered writes Chris H added these comments in the current discussion du jour ... Hamas is not a terrorist organisation. With just that one statement you've laid down your cards. It is a properly elected authority in Gaza. Their election is more solid than the last one GWB engineered. What difference does it make if Hamas is or is not a properly elected authority? Israel is attacking a legally elected government in it's own territory,. Sounds like an act of war... no wonder they are fighting back Sorry, that doesn't hold water. Hamas fired first. Israel showed remarkable retraint until "enough is enough." When did Hamas come into being? Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin because they were so ****ed off with Isreal murdering civilians. Hamas was created to defend the Palestinians from the IDF continually killing women and children as it normally does. Some 400 women and children (of the 90 civilians) in the last 15 days. Hamas have killed 13 Israelis in defence. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
#30
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Palestinians Under Attack
In message , Stephen Bishop
writes On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 16:31:43 +0000, Chris H wrote: Really come over to uk.current-event.terrorisum where I have had a 90% success rate on this very subject usually being able to accurately predict trends up to 3 years in advance. I do have military experience (and in the ME) speak Fasi and still have many connections If you look at our company events list http://www.phaedsys.com/news/index.html you will see that we are involved in the military sector and will be at http://www.counterterrorexpo.com/ next month... Your experience is? Probably not with the same bias as yours. In other words you don't have any relevant experience. \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
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