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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
"Chris H" wrote in message ... In message , Neil Harrington writes "Chris H" wrote in message ... In message , Bill Graham writes "J. Clarke" wrote in message news:h9tef91qgs@n ews6.newsguy.com... tony cooper wrote: On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:44:17 -0700, "Bill Graham" wrote: Be sure to write the first time you encounter a CHP officer with your idea that you have an inherent right to carry a concealed weapon without a permit. I'd be interested to see how that plays out. I have spent many happy hours arguing exactly that with California Police officers......My wife's grandson-in-law happens to be one. In many cases they agree with my position on the matter. This is the ChrisH School of Reasoning. If you know one person who shares your opinion, that means "everyone" agrees with you. I had a police officer explain matters to me this way: "If you shoot me when I come to enforce a gun ban, I won't hold it against you." Many police disagree with some of the laws that they are required to enforce, but they do their jobs anyway. They shouldn't. "It is the responsibility, not the right, of good men to disobey bad laws." - Spencer Tracy, in "Judgment at Nuremberg." So how come the US military is still using torture and the excuse is they were just following orders? No discussion of U.S. military "torture" can be complete without a reading of Ann Coulter's column on the subject, which puts it somewhat in perspective: ________________________________ WATCHING MSNBC IS TORTURE May 6, 2009 The media wail about "torture," but are noticeably short on facts. Liberals try to disguise the utter wussification of our interrogation techniques by constantly prattling on about "the banality of evil." What a load of CRAP to excuse torture by the US. All you need is the Geneva convention. The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military force. If you think it does, show me where. Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no rights at all -- they can be and have been just executed on the spot. That's been the rule for at least a few hundred years. Now I think any reasonable person would admit that a little waterboarding is kinder and more generous treatment than being summarily executed. |
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
"Neil Harrington" wrote in message
[...] The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military force. If you think it does, show me where. Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no rights at all -- they can be and have been just executed on the spot. That's been the rule for at least a few hundred years. Every person has rights. Many of the detainees at Guananemo have been shown to have not been involved in terrorist activities and were captured by mistake. That is why civilised countries insist on the rule of law, where no person may be detained without due process, something the Bush administration fought every step of the way. It is not acceptable to merely deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established by evidence. Now I think any reasonable person would admit that a little waterboarding is kinder and more generous treatment than being summarily executed. There is no such thing as "a little waterboarding". It is torture and under the terms of the international agreement signed by Ronald Reagan and ratified by the US Senate America has no lawful option but to prosecute those who engaged in it. |
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
Neil Harrington wrote:
"Chris H" wrote in message ... In message , Neil Harrington writes "Chris H" wrote in message ... In message , Bill Graham writes "J. Clarke" wrote in message news:h9tef91qgs@n ews6.newsguy.com... tony cooper wrote: On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:44:17 -0700, "Bill Graham" wrote: Be sure to write the first time you encounter a CHP officer with your idea that you have an inherent right to carry a concealed weapon without a permit. I'd be interested to see how that plays out. I have spent many happy hours arguing exactly that with California Police officers......My wife's grandson-in-law happens to be one. In many cases they agree with my position on the matter. This is the ChrisH School of Reasoning. If you know one person who shares your opinion, that means "everyone" agrees with you. I had a police officer explain matters to me this way: "If you shoot me when I come to enforce a gun ban, I won't hold it against you." Many police disagree with some of the laws that they are required to enforce, but they do their jobs anyway. They shouldn't. "It is the responsibility, not the right, of good men to disobey bad laws." - Spencer Tracy, in "Judgment at Nuremberg." So how come the US military is still using torture and the excuse is they were just following orders? No discussion of U.S. military "torture" can be complete without a reading of Ann Coulter's column on the subject, which puts it somewhat in perspective: ________________________________ WATCHING MSNBC IS TORTURE May 6, 2009 The media wail about "torture," but are noticeably short on facts. Liberals try to disguise the utter wussification of our interrogation techniques by constantly prattling on about "the banality of evil." What a load of CRAP to excuse torture by the US. All you need is the Geneva convention. The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military force. If you think it does, show me where. If they're not covered by the Geneva Convention then they're covered by the US Constitution. Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no rights at all Just like Jews didn't have any rights according to the Nazis. -- Ray Fischer |
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
In message , Neil
Harrington writes "Chris H" wrote in message ... In message , Neil Harrington writes "Chris H" wrote in message ... In message , Bill Graham writes "J. Clarke" wrote in message news:h9tef91qgs@n ews6.newsguy.com... tony cooper wrote: On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:44:17 -0700, "Bill Graham" wrote: Be sure to write the first time you encounter a CHP officer with your idea that you have an inherent right to carry a concealed weapon without a permit. I'd be interested to see how that plays out. I have spent many happy hours arguing exactly that with California Police officers......My wife's grandson-in-law happens to be one. In many cases they agree with my position on the matter. This is the ChrisH School of Reasoning. If you know one person who shares your opinion, that means "everyone" agrees with you. I had a police officer explain matters to me this way: "If you shoot me when I come to enforce a gun ban, I won't hold it against you." Many police disagree with some of the laws that they are required to enforce, but they do their jobs anyway. They shouldn't. "It is the responsibility, not the right, of good men to disobey bad laws." - Spencer Tracy, in "Judgment at Nuremberg." So how come the US military is still using torture and the excuse is they were just following orders? No discussion of U.S. military "torture" can be complete without a reading of Ann Coulter's column on the subject, which puts it somewhat in perspective: ________________________________ WATCHING MSNBC IS TORTURE May 6, 2009 The media wail about "torture," but are noticeably short on facts. Liberals try to disguise the utter wussification of our interrogation techniques by constantly prattling on about "the banality of evil." What a load of CRAP to excuse torture by the US. All you need is the Geneva convention. The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military force. If you think it does, show me where. It does not... they are civilians and criminals. Thus they come under civilian law. Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no rights at all -- Yes they do they are civilian criminals and come under due process. torture is not part of that process. Those are the ONLY two options. The "third option" is used by the axis of evil ie China, N. Korea, Iran, Israel and the USA to torture civilians -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
In message , DRS
writes "Neil Harrington" wrote in message [...] The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military force. If you think it does, show me where. Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no rights at all -- they can be and have been just executed on the spot. That's been the rule for at least a few hundred years. Every person has rights. Many of the detainees at Guananemo have been shown to have not been involved in terrorist activities and were captured by mistake. However the experience of several years illegal detention and torture turned most of them and their families into at least sympathisers of Al- Qeada. That is why civilised countries insist on the rule of law, where no person may be detained without due process, something the Bush administration fought every step of the way. And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world. It is not acceptable to merely deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established by evidence. Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans did not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded. Now I think any reasonable person would admit that a little waterboarding is kinder and more generous treatment than being summarily executed. There is no such thing as "a little waterboarding". It is torture and under the terms of the international agreement signed by Ronald Reagan and ratified by the US Senate America has no lawful option but to prosecute those who engaged in it. Agreed. The right wing in the USA sound just like the N.Koreans, Chinese and the Israelis. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
"Chris H" wrote in message
In message , DRS writes [...] And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world. A rouge state? Only by the wingnuts in here. It is not acceptable to merely deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established by evidence. Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans did not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded. There is genuine dispute among international jurists about the legitimacy of the Taliban government given the state of armed resistance to it. The invasion of Iraq was unquestionably illegal but the invasion of Afghanistan is legally ambiguous. |
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
"DRS" wrote in message . au... "Neil Harrington" wrote in message [...] The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military force. If you think it does, show me where. Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no rights at all -- they can be and have been just executed on the spot. That's been the rule for at least a few hundred years. Every person has rights. Many of the detainees at Guananemo have been shown to have not been involved in terrorist activities and were captured by mistake. That is why civilised countries insist on the rule of law, where no person may be detained without due process, something the Bush administration fought every step of the way. It is not acceptable to merely deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established by evidence. In wartime, anyone who is a citizen of the other side that is caught out of uniform in your territory is a spy, and can be shot unceremoniously. So, the argument comes down to things like: Are we really in "wartime"? Who is a citizen of, "The other side"? - Is there an, "other side"? What is the other sides, "Uniform"? IOW, things are a lot more complicated that they at first seem. And there certainly is lots of room for argument over what is acceptable and what is not. |
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
Bill Graham wrote: In wartime, anyone who is a citizen of the other side that is caught out of uniform in your territory is a spy, and can be shot unceremoniously. What about citizens of the other side in their own territory. Many in GitMo were arrested in Afghanistan and Iraq So, the argument comes down to things like: Are we really in "wartime"? Who is a citizen of, "The other side"? - Is there an, "other side"? What is the other sides, "Uniform"? IOW, things are a lot more complicated that they at first seem. And there certainly is lots of room for argument over what is acceptable and what is not. Some good points Bill.. Few seem to be arguing the arrest, most are arguing due process what ever that may be. Treatment of detained persons is a real issue with many different consequences. One of the few politicians in the US that has thought this through is McCain. w.. |
#9
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
"Chris H" wrote in message ... In message , DRS writes "Neil Harrington" wrote in message [...] The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military force. If you think it does, show me where. Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no rights at all -- they can be and have been just executed on the spot. That's been the rule for at least a few hundred years. Every person has rights. Many of the detainees at Guananemo have been shown to have not been involved in terrorist activities and were captured by mistake. However the experience of several years illegal detention and torture turned most of them and their families into at least sympathisers of Al- Qeada. That is why civilised countries insist on the rule of law, where no person may be detained without due process, something the Bush administration fought every step of the way. And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world. It is not acceptable to merely deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established by evidence. Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans did not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded. Now I think any reasonable person would admit that a little waterboarding is kinder and more generous treatment than being summarily executed. There is no such thing as "a little waterboarding". It is torture and under the terms of the international agreement signed by Ronald Reagan and ratified by the US Senate America has no lawful option but to prosecute those who engaged in it. Agreed. The right wing in the USA sound just like the N.Koreans, Chinese and the Israelis. Torture is not black and white. It exists in nearly infinite degrees, just like most other things. You can be slightly uncomfortable, like when you are waiting in line for your welfare check. Or, you can be slowly burned to death. So, torture has to be carefully defined, or any laws made about it are meaningless. As a result, the argument that you guys are carrying on can have no resolution, because the terms have not been carefully defined. IOW, you are wasting your time. |
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The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!
In message , DRS
writes "Chris H" wrote in message In message , DRS writes [...] And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world. A rouge state? Only by the wingnuts in here. It is not acceptable to merely deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established by evidence. Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans did not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded. There is genuine dispute among international jurists about the legitimacy of the Taliban government given the state of armed resistance to it. Several countries recognised it. Also just because there is a civil war it does not give anyone external the right to invade. BTW the Russians in Afghanistan were invited in be the legitimate government yet the USA armed and trained the terrorists including Al- Qeada and those who became the Taliban. However that is separate to the illegality of the invasion. Also the only way an irregular army can survive is if the people support them and after 8 years I think the answer is obvious. The invasion of Iraq was unquestionably illegal I think you are right but in the UK at least there is no definitive answer and there wont be for about 18 months but the invasion of Afghanistan is legally ambiguous. I agree but I think 8 years on it is a bit irrelevant now. The question is how many decades will it take to get out without loosing too badly. The US may wind up having to do it alone. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ |
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