Death knell for prosumers?

Real prosumer cams are long gone. The magnesium-bodied Olympus and
Nikons have been replaced by plastic so the "bridge camera" quality
aspect is gone.
You can now buy an Olympus (in Europe) E-400 or a Nikon D40 and an
18-200mm zoom that creates a package nearly as portable as most
prosumers, smaller than some. Apart from live LCD and video, why use a
Prosumer now? The image quality boost alone justifies the jump to a
DSLR and apparently even uninitiated consumers agree as DSLR sales are
flying.

"Rich" wrote in message
oups.com...
Real prosumer cams are long gone. The magnesium-bodied Olympus and
Nikons have been replaced by plastic so the "bridge camera" quality
aspect is gone.
You can now buy an Olympus (in Europe) E-400 or a Nikon D40 and an
18-200mm zoom that creates a package nearly as portable as most
prosumers, smaller than some. Apart from live LCD and video, why use a
Prosumer now? The image quality boost alone justifies the jump to a
DSLR and apparently even uninitiated consumers agree as DSLR sales are
flying.

When legacy glass goes so will DSLR's. I think the next big jump in optics
will be to abandon the flat film plane for integrated non-planar sensor
optics. The only reason for a flat plane is historical - so that film could
be economically manufactured and wound in a roll. While it's true that the
machining tools for chips are planar, this need not be the case. Silicon
can be made into spherical shapes, and the fabrication equipment, being
optical, is not limited to a planar configuration. Three integrated sensors
could capture full rez RGB.

Don't worry though, it will be a few years off. But when it happens, we'll
have non-planar variable resolution lenses that will be able to do things
that are not currently possible. For example, constant resolution optical
zoom, random pixel layout (copying the retina's layout to eliminate moiré
once and for all), variable resolution fisheyes, with more pixels around the
edges for a constant rez pano wrap.
--
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/

Mike Russell wrote:
"Rich" wrote in message
oups.com...
Real prosumer cams are long gone. The magnesium-bodied Olympus and
Nikons have been replaced by plastic so the "bridge camera" quality
aspect is gone.
You can now buy an Olympus (in Europe) E-400 or a Nikon D40 and an
18-200mm zoom that creates a package nearly as portable as most
prosumers, smaller than some. Apart from live LCD and video, why use a
Prosumer now? The image quality boost alone justifies the jump to a
DSLR and apparently even uninitiated consumers agree as DSLR sales are
flying.

When legacy glass goes so will DSLR's. I think the next big jump in optics
will be to abandon the flat film plane for integrated non-planar sensor
optics. The only reason for a flat plane is historical - so that film could
be economically manufactured and wound in a roll. While it's true that the
machining tools for chips are planar, this need not be the case. Silicon
can be made into spherical shapes, and the fabrication equipment, being
optical, is not limited to a planar configuration. Three integrated sensors
could capture full rez RGB.

Don't worry though, it will be a few years off. But when it happens, we'll
have non-planar variable resolution lenses that will be able to do things
that are not currently possible. For example, constant resolution optical
zoom, random pixel layout (copying the retina's layout to eliminate moiré
once and for all), variable resolution fisheyes, with more pixels around the
edges for a constant rez pano wrap.
--
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/

I'd agree with you. If the cost and complexity of making a curved
sensor isn't too much,
then it would free-up much optical design possibilities. Even Canon
wouldn't have to join the 21st century and start making telecentric
lenses!

"Mike Russell" -MOVE wrote in message
. ..
"Rich" wrote in message
oups.com...
Real prosumer cams are long gone. The magnesium-bodied Olympus and
Nikons have been replaced by plastic so the "bridge camera" quality
aspect is gone.
You can now buy an Olympus (in Europe) E-400 or a Nikon D40 and an
18-200mm zoom that creates a package nearly as portable as most
prosumers, smaller than some. Apart from live LCD and video, why use a
Prosumer now? The image quality boost alone justifies the jump to a
DSLR and apparently even uninitiated consumers agree as DSLR sales are
flying.

When legacy glass goes so will DSLR's. I think the next big jump in
optics will be to abandon the flat film plane for integrated non-planar
sensor optics. The only reason for a flat plane is historical - so that
film could be economically manufactured and wound in a roll. While it's
true that the machining tools for chips are planar, this need not be the
case. Silicon can be made into spherical shapes, and the fabrication
equipment, being optical, is not limited to a planar configuration.

You must know something that I do not. Camera sensors are fabricated on
flat wafers.

"Charles Schuler" wrote in message
...
[re curved image sensors]
You must know something that I do not. Camera sensors are fabricated on
flat wafers.

They are now, but they are only flat because they happen to be machined that
way, and that was more a function of the fact that electronics does not care
so much about topology, and a flat shape makes more efficient use of the
silicon blank.

Existing optical techniques could be used to machine a silicon blank into a
concave spherical surface.Although existing fabrication methods would need
to be adapted, the fabrication process of masking and depositing may be
intrinsically easier for a spherical surface than a planar one.

Once you walk away from the planar surface, all kinds of simplifications are
possible. The cosine and cosine squared factors drop out of the optical
equation, Most forms of spherical aberration simply go away and you may
find that a one or two element lens can do the job of a much more complex
planar based lens. A larger sensor could have specialized sections that
could be rotated into place. For example, a non-Bayer sensor for monochrome
images, several flavors of IR only sensors, and so on.

Higher order curves would also be possible, but the first such sensors will
be spherical because it will still be more economical to carve multiple
sensors from a single piece of silicon.

Once lenses are integrated with their sensors, the camera as we know it will
serve as a power source, data organizer, electronic viewfinder (since SLR's
are inherently planar devices), and image stabilizer.
--

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/

Charles Schuler wrote:
"Mike Russell" -MOVE wrote in message
. ..
I think the next big jump in
optics will be to abandon the flat film plane for integrated non-planar
sensor optics.[...]

You must know something that I do not. Camera sensors are fabricated on
flat wafers.
Of course they are. What he meant is that this is not a god-given.
You got a big crystal (about 300 to 400 Kg) and cut and polish
it into any shape(s) you like.
You'd need a spherically shaped blade for it. Any irregular (i.e.
aspheric and non-cylindrical) form needs to be ground out in a second
step, wasting valuable silicon and making it expensive.
At that point it's a matter of shaping glass versus shaping the sensor.
Glass is much cheaper than silicon, so the benefit must be really big
in order to justify the investment.

What I'm hoping for is circular sensors. The projected image is round, I'm
cropping anyway, and with a round sensor I can hold the camera in the "normal"
position every time. Plus I never have to worry about a horizontal horizon
anymore because all that is done during post processing.
If the pixes are set in a spiral that would get rid of the moire too,
wouldn't it?

Hey, what a bout a totally circular camera? No rectangular body, controls
along the rotational axis, you hold it like a big monocular.

Lots of Greetings!
Volker

"Charles Schuler" wrote in message
...


You must know something that I do not. Camera sensors are fabricated on
flat wafers.

The silicon ingot is withdrawn from molten silicon by using a rotating seed
crystal. The ingot is approximately round and a diamond saw is used to
slice thin wafers, from the ingot. The wafers are approximately round and
not all that flexible.

The dendrtic crystal growth process, thus far not a commercial success, can
produce more flexible silicon substrata but sadly not for photo sensors in
digital cameras (in fact, sadly for no practical production).

It's good to dream and speculate ... that's were the new stuff originates.
In this case, I'd say quite a few years.

However, organic semiconductors are not sliced from ingots and can indeed be
almost any shape. Sadly, in this case too, I'd say quite a few years.

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:55:27 -0500, "Charles Schuler"
wrote:


The silicon ingot is withdrawn from molten silicon by using a rotating seed
crystal. The ingot is approximately round and a diamond saw is used to
slice thin wafers, from the ingot. The wafers are approximately round and
not all that flexible.


A few years ago a company (I think they called themselves
Ball Semiconductor) was pushing this technology. But AFAIK
it went nowhere.

Think of all the processing gear that would need to be
retooled.

rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com

On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 16:45:34 -0500, Charles Schuler wrote:

While it's true that the machining tools for chips are planar, this need not
be the case. Silicon can be made into spherical shapes, and the fabrication
equipment, being optical, is not limited to a planar configuration.

You must know something that I do not. Camera sensors are fabricated on
flat wafers.

But . . but . . sensors won't always have to be sliced from pure
silicon crystals, he sputtered.

On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 22:19:08 GMT, Mike Russell -MOVE wrote:
"Charles Schuler" wrote in message
...
[re curved image sensors]
You must know something that I do not. Camera sensors are fabricated on
flat wafers.

They are now, but they are only flat because they happen to be machined that
way, and that was more a function of the fact that electronics does not care
so much about topology, and a flat shape makes more efficient use of the
silicon blank.

There's a big big infrastructure, both in R&D know-how and in
manufacturing machinery, devoted to making planar structures on flat
silicon wafers. The flat part is important; for just one example,
consider the problem of photoresist coating when spin-coating no longer
works.

It's the kind of problem that's solvable, but since the semiconductor
industry has poured umpteen billion dollars into solving the problem for
flats, sensor suppliers can leverage that expertise. Go to something
qualitatively different, and there's a lot of money that will have to be
spent to get it to work.

-dms