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Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 14th 08, 05:10 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Podge
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Posts: 79
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing


"Craig Welch" wrote in message
...
"Podge" said:


"Craig Welch" wrote in message
. ..
"Podge" said:


Well then, how do professional photographers get their city aerial pics?
Do
they have to especially hire aircraft for this purpose?

Yep.


If digital cameras really were a threat to an aircraft's navigation
systems,
why aren't they especially mentioned in the instructions that are read out
by flight crew?


Because it's necessary to keep the announcement to less than an
hour. Do you want them to mention *every* conceivable type of
electronic device? By brand and colour?

As mentioned by another, it's quite possible that they don't really
care about your particular kind of camera. But they do not want to
put the stewardess in the position of having to make a technical
decision. So she will ask you to turn off anything that looks
electronic.

And you will respect her request.

--
Craig http://www.wazu.jp/
1,239 Unicode fonts for 82 written language groups:
Price your own web plan: http://www.wazu.jp/hosting/


I agree that the list could be endless, but it's such a common thing for
people to own digital cameras and want to use them on a flight. I think
there would be a lot more digital cameras on a flight than laptop computers,
so I think specific reference should be made to digital cameras if these are
not permitted to be used during take-offs and landings.

Someone mentioned digital watches, even in the days of "Get Smart" these
could conceal just about anything, so it's a wonder that you are allowed to
keep these on during a flight in case you could remotely detonate an
explosive device with your watch or take a pic with it!

  #22  
Old January 14th 08, 05:17 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Tony Cooper
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Posts: 4,748
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off orLanding

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:58:34 +1300, "Podge" wrote:


"E. Scrooge" (*sling) wrote in message
news:1200281873.491622@ftpsrv1...

"sam" wrote in message
...
Mark Robinson wrote:
Podge wrote:
I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a
few pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An
air hostess politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not
permitted during take-offs or landings. I told her that I was using a
dedicated still digital camera and not a camcorder, but she still asked
me to turn it off. About 10 minutes later, when land was well out of
sight, we were able to turn on our "electronic devices". But about 10
minutes before landing, while still over the sea, all electronic
devices had to be turned off again. The only worthwhile photography
from this flight was during the first and last 5 minutes of the flight,
and this would apply to many other flights that I have been on.

Now I know that the use of camcorders has been banned during take-offs
and landings, but I didn't know that digital still cameras now suffered
this fate. My digital camera can't take movies, but I know that a lot
of digital still cameras can also take movies. From a practical point
of view, does anyone know whether digital cameras really CAN interfere
with an aircraft's navigation systems? Are airlines being a little too
cautious with regard to the use of digital cameras and camcorders?

About 5 years ago, nobody cared when I used my camcorder or digital
still camera during take-offs or landings, and there were no reports
then of interference with the aircrafts' navigation systems! So what
has changed during the last 5 years?

Any digital device can easily interfere with avionic systems.

They all contain square wave clock oscillators and logic circuits which
produce broadband radio noise which can easily land on critical
frequencies for things like precision approach, radar or communications
systems.

Mythbusted,
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/03/e..._on_plane.html

Its because the aviation authorities don't want to do the testing.
No reason, its just policy.

Planes would be crashing a lot due to the digital watches that everyone
completely disregards otherwise.


Planes are well insulated from any interference, especially from different
electronics built into the plane itself. Otherwise the coffee maker might
bring up the landing gear and cause the engines to shut down.

E. Scrooge


However, this article suggests that interference from portable electronic
devices demonstrates 'potential for catastrophe'

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._97423671/pg_2

Personally, I don't care if it's safety, security, or if it's just
that the flight attendant can't be arsed to check out every device she
sees a passenger holding.

If you argue with them, you'll end up in a little green room back in
the terminal explaining to some burly security guard that your device
is harmless and you just wanted a picture of the honey wagon. In the
meantime, your flight will be halfway home and you won't be on it.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #23  
Old January 14th 08, 05:45 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Tony Cooper
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Posts: 4,748
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:00:31 -0900, (Floyd L.
Davidson) wrote:

tony cooper wrote:

I think there are some considerations you haven't thought about.

I don't know what the air hostess to passenger ratio was, but we
can't expect the air hostesses to have the time to check out each
passenger's device to see if it's something that is, or is not, within
the rules. In that brief time that you were stopped from using your
device, she had to monitor several passengers and conduct her other
duties. It makes their job easier to just say "no devices".


The _rule_ is "no electronic devices", the airline
attendant has no discretion.

Also, there's the security consideration of allowing images to be
taken of ground facilities. Perhaps we're more conscious of this in
the US, but the idea of people being able to photograph airport ground
facilities is not acceptable here.


That is not true.


Right as usual, Floyd. The Wiley Post-Will Rogers Memorial Airport in
Barrow, with its one runway, may allow the Barrow Camera and Baculum
Carving Club to roam the airport facilities, but that's not the rule
for any airport large enough to have more than a windsock for air
traffic control.

It may be that the possible interference in the aircraft's systems is
not the reason for the ban at all. It's a plausible excuse that
passengers are more likely to accept because they don't know anything
about the aircraft's system.


Please direct that sort of response to alt.conspiracy,
where it belongs.


And direct your reply to the
alt.dubious.electronicinterference.theories newsgroup.

The reason for the ban *is* to prevent interference with
aircraft electronics (e.g., radio and other navigation
systems). That is a *very* real potential.


I dunno what they fly out of Barrow, but in the airports I've flown
out of they fly planes that don't wait until they hit 5,000 feet to
turn on the radios and navigation systems. What do you think they use
on take-off? Semaphores and Aldus lamps?

If I'm the pilot, and the fear is that the electronic devices are
going to screw up my radio and navigation equipment, I want all the
passengers to turn on everything they've got from digital cameras to
boom boxes before I'm cleared for take-off.

If something's gonna go wrong, I want it to go wrong before I get high
enough off the ground to bounce.


--

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #24  
Old January 14th 08, 05:52 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Paul Furman
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Posts: 7,367
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off orLanding

tony cooper wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:58:34 +1300, "Podge" wrote:

"E. Scrooge" (*sling) wrote in message
news:1200281873.491622@ftpsrv1...
"sam" wrote in message
...
Mark Robinson wrote:
Podge wrote:
I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a
few pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An
air hostess politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not
permitted during take-offs or landings. I told her that I was using a
dedicated still digital camera and not a camcorder, but she still asked
me to turn it off. About 10 minutes later, when land was well out of
sight, we were able to turn on our "electronic devices". But about 10
minutes before landing, while still over the sea, all electronic
devices had to be turned off again. The only worthwhile photography
from this flight was during the first and last 5 minutes of the flight,
and this would apply to many other flights that I have been on.

Now I know that the use of camcorders has been banned during take-offs
and landings, but I didn't know that digital still cameras now suffered
this fate. My digital camera can't take movies, but I know that a lot
of digital still cameras can also take movies. From a practical point
of view, does anyone know whether digital cameras really CAN interfere
with an aircraft's navigation systems? Are airlines being a little too
cautious with regard to the use of digital cameras and camcorders?

About 5 years ago, nobody cared when I used my camcorder or digital
still camera during take-offs or landings, and there were no reports
then of interference with the aircrafts' navigation systems! So what
has changed during the last 5 years?
Any digital device can easily interfere with avionic systems.

They all contain square wave clock oscillators and logic circuits which
produce broadband radio noise which can easily land on critical
frequencies for things like precision approach, radar or communications
systems.
Mythbusted,
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/03/e..._on_plane.html

Its because the aviation authorities don't want to do the testing.
No reason, its just policy.

Planes would be crashing a lot due to the digital watches that everyone
completely disregards otherwise.
Planes are well insulated from any interference, especially from different
electronics built into the plane itself. Otherwise the coffee maker might
bring up the landing gear and cause the engines to shut down.

E. Scrooge

However, this article suggests that interference from portable electronic
devices demonstrates 'potential for catastrophe'

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._97423671/pg_2

Personally, I don't care if it's safety, security, or if it's just
that the flight attendant can't be arsed to check out every device she
sees a passenger holding.

If you argue with them, you'll end up in a little green room back in
the terminal explaining to some burly security guard that your device
is harmless and you just wanted a picture of the honey wagon. In the
meantime, your flight will be halfway home and you won't be on it.


Just be discrete and put it away when they pass. No problem. If they see
you, they'll ask you to put it away, no big deal: put it away politely
at that time.
  #25  
Old January 14th 08, 05:54 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Paul Furman
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Posts: 7,367
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off orLanding

Podge wrote:

or whether it's simply easier to ban all electronic devices?


Yep.
  #26  
Old January 14th 08, 05:56 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Jürgen Exner
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Posts: 1,579
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing

"Podge" wrote:
I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a few
pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An air hostess
politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not permitted during
take-offs or landings.[...]


First a lot of people who answered to this posting seem to confuse security
and safety. The "all electronic devises off" has nothing to do with
security but is all about safety and non-interference with avionics and has
has been in effect for a long time.
However the operator does have discretion to allow devices they deem
harmless.

FAR § 91.21 Portable electronic devices:
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may
operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the
operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following
U.S.-registered civil aircraft:
(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or
an operating certificate; or
(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.

(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
[...]
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft
has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or
communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

I suppose other countries have enacted similar regulations.

jue
  #27  
Old January 14th 08, 05:58 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Paul Furman
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Posts: 7,367
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off orLanding

Podge wrote:

Someone mentioned digital watches, even in the days of "Get Smart" these
could conceal just about anything, so it's a wonder that you are allowed
to keep these on during a flight in case you could remotely detonate an
explosive device with your watch or take a pic with it!


Absolutely.

Luddites.

But that's life in the 21st century, I suggest simply being discrete.
  #28  
Old January 14th 08, 06:06 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Gene S. Berkowitz[_2_]
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Posts: 47
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing

In article , says...

I agree that the list could be endless, but it's such a common thing for
people to own digital cameras and want to use them on a flight. I think
there would be a lot more digital cameras on a flight than laptop computers,
so I think specific reference should be made to digital cameras if these are
not permitted to be used during take-offs and landings.


What part of "digital camera" does NOT imply "electronic device" to you?
A digital camera is really not much more than a microprocessor whose
task it is to transfer information from a very leaky memory device (the
CMOS image sensor) to a somewhat less leaky device (a memory card). The
rest is just bells and whistles, from an electronics point of view.

Someone mentioned digital watches, even in the days of "Get Smart" these
could conceal just about anything, so it's a wonder that you are allowed to
keep these on during a flight in case you could remotely detonate an
explosive device with your watch or take a pic with it!


The use (or, more importantly, the non-use) of electronic devices before
and after cruise is not about concealed danger from those devices;
that's what the pre-board screening is for.

PDAs, laptops, and digital cameras all contain high-speed oscillators
and circuits that generate signals in RF bands as a side-effect of their
operation (cell phones, radio and TV receivers intentionally generate RF
in normal operation).

There is a SLIGHT chance that radio emissions like these could interfere
with either communications or navigation. During the takeoff and
landing phases of flight, the aircraft is often operating in conditions
where there is not enough information, time and/or space to "start
over". It is therefore considered prudent to refrain from behaviors
that could make such a situation worse. So, the drinks cart, the tray
tables, YOUR CAMERA and other toys are safely stowed away.

As to digital watches, typically the only oscillator is a crystal
operating at precisely 32,768 Hz, is extremely low power, and is pretty
well shielded by the watch case. Watches that are capable of doing much
more than this are still rare. As devices such as watch-phones and
watch-cameras become more common, they will likely have a "flight" mode
that disables their stronger RF components so that they won't have to be
banned and confiscated at the gate like Swiss Army knives and nail
clippers.

Now, the FCC and FAA could get together and mandate that ALL electronic
devices be tested and adequately shielded to pose NO POSSIBLE
interference hazard to avionics, but most consumers wouldn't want to pay
what that would add to the cost of their gadgets.

--Gene






  #29  
Old January 14th 08, 06:08 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Paul Furman
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Posts: 7,367
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off orLanding

tony cooper wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:27:21 +1300, "Podge" wrote:

"tony cooper" wrote in message
...

I think there are some considerations you haven't thought about.

I don't know what the air hostess to passenger ratio was, but we
can't expect the air hostesses to have the time to check out each
passenger's device to see if it's something that is, or is not, within
the rules. In that brief time that you were stopped from using your
device, she had to monitor several passengers and conduct her other
duties. It makes their job easier to just say "no devices".

Also, there's the security consideration of allowing images to be
taken of ground facilities. Perhaps we're more conscious of this in
the US, but the idea of people being able to photograph airport ground
facilities is not acceptable here.

It may be that the possible interference in the aircraft's systems is
not the reason for the ban at all. It's a plausible excuse that
passengers are more likely to accept because they don't know anything
about the aircraft's system.

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Good points, but I think if someone really wanted to take movies from a
departing aircraft, they could easily conceal a tiny video camera. We see a
few TV clips these days where people were filmed by miniature hidden
cameras. In addition, you can often see amazing detail from images on Google
earth, so I think it might be quite difficult to stop people getting images
of airport ground facilities?


The question is not "Can you sneak some photographs on take-offs and
landings?", but "Why does the air hostess ask you to turn devices
off?"

Sure, you can risk it. But, if caught, you'll be removed from the
flight and quite possibly banned from that carrier.

Yes, Google earth gets images of ground facilities. From straight up.
From the cabin window you can get lateral views not possible with
Google images.


You are allowed to take pics on the taxiways where all the juicy stuff
is or out the windows in the terminal looking at all the ground operations.

The commercial carrier ban isn't going to make it impossible to get
images of every aspect of the ground facilities, but it's going to
make it more difficult. That's what most security measures do.

Interestingly, I had to pick up a relative at a local airport on
Saturday. I arrived early and went to the commercial park next to the
airport (not on airport grounds) and killed some time looking for
shots.

The airport is a former Naval Air Station
http://www.orlandosanfordairport.com/history.htm
and what is now the commercial park was part of the Navy base in WWII.
There are still some old buildings there that go back to the Navy base
days. I was photographing a large storage tank hoping that the
shadows of the winding stairway up the white tank would make a good
picture (it didn't) and a security guard approached me. Turns out
it's something to do with the government (I didn't catch that part of
the guard's warning) and the guard firmly requested that I not take
any more pictures. He didn't ask me to erase the one picture that I
had taken, but he was firm about me leaving that immediate area.


It's a private facility, not a public street (or is it?) so they can do
anything but that doesn't mean it makes any sense or has any reason.


Here's the pic. I didn't bother cropping or doing anything to it
because I don't see any potential.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...213/sat001.jpg



--

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

  #30  
Old January 14th 08, 06:15 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,nz.general,aus.aviation
Tony Cooper
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Posts: 4,748
Default Digital Photography On Aircraft Not Permitted on Take Off or Landing

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 04:56:29 GMT, Jürgen Exner
wrote:

"Podge" wrote:
I was on an Air New Zealand flight a while ago, and I started to take a few
pics (from my digital still camera) as the aircraft took off. An air hostess
politely told me that the use of electronic devices was not permitted during
take-offs or landings.[...]


First a lot of people who answered to this posting seem to confuse security
and safety. The "all electronic devises off" has nothing to do with
security but is all about safety and non-interference with avionics and has
has been in effect for a long time.


I don't know that there's any confusion about this. It's not
necessarily a situation where the reason is safety *or* security. The
rule was put into effect when the systems were vulnerable to
interference, or were thought to be vulnerable to interference.

Even if the interference factors are reduced or eliminated by improved
systems, or if the interference factor is disproved, the rule may
continue to be in effect because there are *also* security
considerations.

"Because" can have more than one answer.


--

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
 




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