The End of Agfa Photo

John,

My point is that likely they didn't buy out the service contracts
because they are big loosers. Know way a company could make any money
selling a service contract for a D-Lab at anywhere close to the current
price. IMO

This situation I think is similar to all of the companies that have
come and gone who sell extended warranties for used cars. A lot of
them go out of business. The make a ton of cash initially and then
start to bleed cash like crazy.

My guess is that the service contracts where a big reason that Agfa
folded.

Lets just assume that I'm right for a second. Lets assume that Agfa
realized that they would need to charge $1800 a month for the "parts
and labor" service contract vs $650 just to break even on it.
Obviously they are in trouble because if they were to try to charge
that much, noboby would buy another DLab. They are damned if the do,
damned if they don't.

In either case, I'm pretty sure that the contracts were a big looser
for the company.

I'd be interested to here from other D-Lab owners about this. We have
2 dLabs. A D2 and a D2 plus. Both have been very high maintanace.
We've been averaging a laser unit per year per machine alone! Not to
mention all of the other day to day problems. (Lots of power supplies
and Vips boards and on and on) Without a service contract, IMO these
machines are worthless. They just cost too much to keep running.

Therefore it is very unlikely that any other company is going to "buy
out" the service contracts and continue to honor them.

As far as the other comment about not being a able to stop payment on
the lease, I agree. Technically we can't stop paying for them until
they stop providing service for the machines. If you talk to an
attorney I'm sure that they will tell you that. But I've already
stoped paying for mine! I'm certain that, while they could come after
me, they won't simply because by the time this matter would get to
court they would have already begun to fail to provide service for my
machines by then.

We have to look at the big picture here everyone.

Legally we have no leg to stand on, at this very moment. However that
is certainly going to change soon. IMO Also consider the fact that
often times you can be in legal hot water but in fact have nothing to
worry about. For example, if you have an account that owes you money
but you realize that it will be very difficult to collect a penny from
them because they are broke, it's not worth going after them for a
judgement that you will never be able to collect on anyway. I think
our situation with our leases is similar. While they could come after
us for not making our payments, I don't think they will because it
won't be worth their trouble considering the likely future situation.
Keep in mind that it costs a lot of money to come after you and it
costs several thousand $ to come and pick up the machines, plus then
they have to store them somewhere. I just don't think they are going
to do that.

BTW, Even if I'm wrong. The worst case scenerio the way I see it is
that you just have to make the payments eventually. Know judge is
going to fault you for being cautious in our shoes right now. IMO I
would not put your payments in escrow either. Just keep the funds in
your own bank. The last think you want is to have to do is fight to
get possesion of your cash back. Make them fight to get it later if
I'm wrong here. If this whole thing blows over in a few months and
everything is fine once again, then you just pay them and say "sorry".
No judge is going to fault you for covering your ass in this situation.

They are also not very likely to come get the machines yet because then
they would have to sue you for the balance of your payments. If the
whole service situation does in fact change, it will be risky for them
to argue that you were not acting reasonably. (Hell the president of
Agfaphoto flat out stated that the company would fold by the end of the
year.) There position is much stronger if they leave the machine and
then come after you for the payments once the clouds clear. (If they
ever do)

Also, the service situation is definately going to start getting a lot
worse. Our lab is here in Minneapolis and we've come to know a lot of
the techs pretty well over the years, as they have been out to our
place a lot! (Agfa service is based here in Minneapolis) These guys
are not happy with Agfa at all. The techs that have been laid off are
likely not ever comming back and the ones who still have their jobs are
looking for other work. They are not going to be to happy to start all
over with a different company.

Plus it takes some time to train new techs. If the service situation
is really bad for six months and then gets better, so what! You are
still legally "out of your lease". Your business is ruined if your
machine is down for a month, right? Hell even a couple of weeks will
likely kill you.

Again, IMO...

Stop making your payments and start looking at Frontier's and Noritsu's
ASAP!

Start preparing for the enevitable. Screw Agfa and start covering your
own ass! The writing is on the wall IMO. The future of your business
is at stake. Don't risk it just because you fear you need to honor
your lease with Agfa and everything MIGHT be all right. If you have
two labs and won't be totally screwed if you loose your DLab for a
while, then you can afford to be more careful. Otherwise start
preparing for the likely possibilty that you are going to soon need
another machine.

Just my 2 cents again.

BTW It might be interesting to note that I was advised to do this
originally by an Agfa employee. I won't name names but I was advised a
month ago that I should start looking for a replacement for my DLab
because of upcomming "service and parts issues" with my DLabs.






John wrote:
On 6 Nov 2005 13:53:17 -0800, "Troy"
wrote:

My guess is that this company that bought up the parts is not planning
to manufacture them again unless their plan is to simply supply Kodak
for their SRP 30's. But in either case, it doesn't really matter.
They sure as hell aren't planning to honor our service contracts.

That kinda depends upon the agreement. They may have bought up the
service contracts. In fact most warranties provided here in the US are
rarely supported by the manufacturer after the government passed the
Nexus legislation. The company I work for "sells off" the warranties
to a third party. Essentially that company provides services for
several OEM's and also they have about 50% of their staff as
contractors. The parts are ordered by our in-house techs and shipped
to the warranty company who disperses them to the appropriate rep. All
we're out is the shipping, receiveing and warehousing of the parts.

===



Regards,

John Douglas - Formula, Documents & Manuals for the Silver Darkroom
Websites : http://www.darkroompro.com - http://www.puresilver.org

One more point everyone. BTW Sorry for not spell checking my post's.
It's very late.

The other very strong argument for stopping payment is that you might
very well need that cash when you have to buy another machine ASAP.
Other companies (Like Noritsu or Fuji) might not want to approve you
for another lease with that agfa lease hanging over you. You may
desperately need that cash to buy a used lab to keep from having to
close your lab.

BTW I've already talked to Noritsu and they are no longer offering
anything for trade in value for DLabs. $0!!!!. That is a radical
change from them. They used to have a pretty good trade in program for
DLabs. Now they won't give you a penny!!! Scary huh?

I haven't applied for credit yet from either Noritsu or Fuji bvut my
guess is that they are going to be very careful about our current
leases. We may have a very hard time buying another machine.

See what kind of trouble we Dlab owners are in?

We are in big trouble folks! It is possible that or Dlabs will go down
on us but that we will be unavle to get another machine in in time to
keep our businesses from folding. Just think about how screwed we will
all be if our Dlabs go down for weeks at a time. We might as well just
close up shop.

The only thing that might save us is if we stop making our payments now
and start saving our cash and hope like hell our Dlabs make it another
6 months before going down for good. Then we can use all of that cash
to get into a used machine if both Noritsu and Fuji decide they don't
want to touch us with finacing for another new machine.

Keep in mind how important it will be to get anothewr machine in FAST!
The Dlab could go down at anytime (once the parts and service situation
gets bad) You will likely have to have another machine up and running
in a week or less else you might as well fold your own tent!

Again,

Start covering your own ass everyone! IMO

wrote:
Just looking for other D-lab owners who may have heard something about
the future of Agfa Photo or "A and O". I currently own 2 d-labs and
have recently quit making my lease payments based on the idea that I
may not be able to get parts / service on these labs 2 months or even 2
years from now making machines worth nothing. It sounds like "A and O"
has snapped up the lab division of Agfa Photo but may only continue to
sell parts until the supply is used up. I read that they will even
part out the remaining 360 partially completed labs on the assembly
line rather then finish building them. This would likely mean that
they will try to collect on the current outstanding leases while trying
to continue to provide service / parts during the terms of the leases.
When the leases expire or they run out of parts (whichever comes
first), then they would be forced to break the remaining leases and
run. I believe they have no intention to continue to service these
machines 4 years from now again making my machines worth next to
nothing at that point. I figure that my lease with a $1 buyout at the
end is not worth the monthly payment any longer if the machine will not
be worth close to $80,000 used like it otherwise would have. I am
mainly wondering what other D-lab owners are hearing and doing
regarding this matter. Please post your comments.

In article .com,
"cherry" wrote:

wrote:
Just looking for other D-lab owners who may have heard something about
the future of Agfa Photo or "A and O". I currently own 2 d-labs and
have recently quit making my lease payments based on the idea that I
may not be able to get parts / service on these labs 2 months or even 2
years from now making machines worth nothing. It sounds like "A and O"
has snapped up the lab division of Agfa Photo but may only continue to
sell parts until the supply is used up. I read that they will even
part out the remaining 360 partially completed labs on the assembly
line rather then finish building them. This would likely mean that
they will try to collect on the current outstanding leases while trying
to continue to provide service / parts during the terms of the leases.
When the leases expire or they run out of parts (whichever comes
first), then they would be forced to break the remaining leases and
run. I believe they have no intention to continue to service these
machines 4 years from now again making my machines worth next to
nothing at that point. I figure that my lease with a $1 buyout at the
end is not worth the monthly payment any longer if the machine will not
be worth close to $80,000 used like it otherwise would have. I am
mainly wondering what other D-lab owners are hearing and doing
regarding this matter. Please post your comments.

These kind always make me wonder why, people don't invest time to learn
posting skills before they attempt it?
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Donald:
I whole heartedly agree with everything you and your partner in
business have said. We are D2Lab owners (or should I say renters) and
are feeling just as naked as everyone else should be.
We are not lawyers, speculators, or investors. We are the recipients
of a company that has been notorious for not being able to stand behind
the products they sell! Granted the D2Lab is a top dog in the market,
but if you can't feed, water, or take care of it, then you have a
virtually DEAD DOG! Alternatives (in supplies) is not what we signed
on for!!!!!!!!!!!
As a bit of history for the guy that thinks he has a lemon. We first
had the MSC 100d lab that functioned beautifully the first 9 months.
Then it began............................the digital engines broke and
broke and broke and came in broke................the company that made
the DPU engines had gone BANKRUPT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8 Digital
Printing Units later we had before enough was enough. This was in a 2
year span....We were down more than we were up....It truly became a
joke with our customers!!!! Agfa was using a subcontracted company
to try to "service us". Guess What.....They couldn't provide. Are you
all sure that is not going to happen again??? NO, You can't be. We were
forced to upgrade or go bankrupt at that point amd chose to TRY for a
better machine. The D2 was HOT on the market at the time, so we went
with it at a costly price. HERE WE ARE AGAIN! We really don't care
about the legal issues here anymore....this company has screwed people
enough for a long enough period of time and I say we gather from far
and near to save ourselves. If we don't, we will be in the same shoes
AGFA PHOTO is right now. We need a GOOD lawyer who can stand up and be
counted for the small business owners who are trying to do the right
thing.
Take the contract and *#+*##### We are talking about business here.
Everything we make goes to Agfa! Did you know that your Rep. who sold
you the machine is pabably GONE. And GUESS WHAT, that is where AGFA
FINANCE will send to fix any problem you have. Who are working for
anyways???????? A company that should tell you that you have a
paperweight in 5 years.......(good point Donald).
I am stopping payment in Dec. also. We don't care about the legal
ramifications anymore. We are not sure about where we are going from
there, however, I will notify Agfa which is more than they did for us!
Holding their Money in separate account until we know where we are?
Last statement in June assured us that everything would be fine,
NNNNNNNNo interruptions. How long have you waited for paper and
chemistry? How much expense have you incurred making a switch to an
"alternative paper/chemisty". Still waiting for that TECH to fix your
machine? Losing money yet???? Customers saying"ARE YOU CRAZY?" Good
machine but get rid of these losers, we'll stay! Was your last phone
call "Are you up and running today??????????" This is all just too
crazy. High blood pressure, heart murmur, suisidal signs...is it all
worth it.....is THAT what we bought in to? Is that what we pay
thousands of dollars a month for? I think not. We did not start this
venture with that in the forecast and I really believe we all need to
take action. Why should we again take the hit and lose what we have
all worked so hard for to AGFA? Powell's Imaging is IN. Let's get
started making something happen for our businesses.....for US!
www.powellsimaging.com

Hey Greg,

Why don't you attempt to comment on the actual content of the topic
rather then feel the need to point out petty things such as typos. (I
can get a free program to replace you and it would know when to
properly use a comma)

Besides, I started this for other D-lab owners to explain their
thoughts through this process.

Donald

Troy spake thus:

Hey Greg,

Why don't you attempt to comment on the actual content of the topic
rather then feel the need to point out petty things such as typos. (I
can get a free program to replace you and it would know when to
properly use a comma)

Not to mention apostrophes; it's "you're", not "your". Aaah, what's the
use? It's terminal AOL-speak.


--
.... asked to comment on Michigan governor George Romney's remark that
the army had "brainwashed" him in Vietnam—-a remark which knocked Romney
out of the running for the Republican nomination—-McCarthy quipped,
"I think in that case a light rinse would have been sufficient."

(Eugene McCarthy, onetime candidate for POTUS)

Hey Greg,


Why don't you attempt to comment on the actual content of the topic
rather then feel the need to point out petty things such as typos. (I
can get a free program to replace you and it would know when to
properly use a comma)


Besides, I started this for other D-lab owners to explain their
thoughts and combine information.


Donald

digifotopro wrote:
: Hey Greg,


: Why don't you attempt to comment on the actual content of the topic
: rather then feel the need to point out petty things such as typos. (I
: can get a free program to replace you and it would know when to
: properly use a comma)


: Besides, I started this for other D-lab owners to explain their
: thoughts and combine information.

Why don't you find a newgroup were your discussions about the Agfa minilabs
are on topic?
--




-------------------
Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

Frank Pittel spake thus:

digifotopro wrote:

: Hey Greg,

: Why don't you attempt to comment on the actual content of the topic
: rather then feel the need to point out petty things such as typos. (I
: can get a free program to replace you and it would know when to
: properly use a comma)

: Besides, I started this for other D-lab owners to explain their
: thoughts and combine information.

Why don't you find a newgroup were your discussions about the Agfa minilabs
are on topic?

Not on-topic in a darkroom group? How do you figure that?


--
.... asked to comment on Michigan governor George Romney's remark that
the army had "brainwashed" him in Vietnam—-a remark which knocked Romney
out of the running for the Republican nomination—-McCarthy quipped,
"I think in that case a light rinse would have been sufficient."

(Eugene McCarthy, onetime candidate for POTUS)