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#22
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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"
In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says... On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:38:55 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , tonycooper214 says... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 11:46:24 +1200, Eric Stevens wrote: On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 17:37:17 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , tonycooper214 says... On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 14:49:31 -0400, PeterN wrote: On 9/17/2013 1:40 PM, Tony Cooper wrote: On Tue, 17 Sep 2013 09:41:57 -0700, Savageduck wrote: On 2013-09-17 08:23:10 -0700, George Kerby said: On 9/16/13 9:33 AM, in article , "Bowser" wrote: On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 10:25:25 -0400, Alan Browne wrote: On 2013.09.06 22:13 , PeterN wrote: On 9/6/2013 4:45 PM, Alan Browne wrote: On 2013.09.05 22:25 , Michael Benveniste wrote: On 9/5/2013 1:21 PM, Bowser wrote: Let's see what you've got. For Sale is due October 6th, 2013. I won't be in Washington D.C. this month, so I can't submit a picture of the Capitol or the White House. They sold out a long time ago. True. But it's on ongoing sale. Confirmed then: they are prostitutes. Now, now, there's no need to insult prostitutes. I'll take them over politicians any day. Is there a difference? Have you ever been satisfied with any encounter with a politician? With a prostitute there is always the promise of some sort of satisfaction, however fleeting that might be. Actually, I've had one experience in dealing with a politician, and no experience at all dealing with a prostitute. My US Representative did meet with me, and did take care of a problem for me. He was quite efficient. that was one politician that help. Well, I asked one to help and he did so. When over 90% of the people surveyed want to ban gun ownership to people with mental problems, whey hasn't backround check legislation passed. http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm That isn't an example of a experience with a politician. While I agree with you on the need - although I would take it further and have much more stringent gun controls - you brought up comparing a personal experience with a politician vs a personal experience with a prostitute. Besides, background check legislation was enacted 20 years ago, so the politicians can be forgiven for not passing the same law again. Tell them in Washington. :-( Stores that sell guns in Florida are required to conduct background checks. Not to worry, though, if you don't think you will pass. Just go to a flea market and buy a gun. Don't want to wait until the weekend for the flea market? Look on Craigslist and buy one today. No background checks required by either seller. Which is the general exception for private sales, which is a nod to the reality that there is no practical way to police private sales of firearms. When Grandpa kicks it and Grandma wants to get rid of his guns, she's not going to consult a lawyer to find out that she has to do background checks. That's the reality that Congress was dealing with, and making a criminal out of Grandma is a political non-starter. It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this state. Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist anyway. Now what? That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer the gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market to sell it. rolling eyes Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer for her as well? Heck, just ban private sales of everything unless they happen at a gun shop. Gotta protect Grandma you know. Congress deals with the reality that the NRA dreams up. You go on believing that. |
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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"
On 9/17/13 11:41 AM, in article 2013091709415750073-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, "Savageduck" wrote: On 2013-09-17 08:23:10 -0700, George Kerby said: On 9/16/13 9:33 AM, in article , "Bowser" wrote: On Sat, 07 Sep 2013 10:25:25 -0400, Alan Browne wrote: On 2013.09.06 22:13 , PeterN wrote: On 9/6/2013 4:45 PM, Alan Browne wrote: On 2013.09.05 22:25 , Michael Benveniste wrote: On 9/5/2013 1:21 PM, Bowser wrote: Let's see what you've got. For Sale is due October 6th, 2013. I won't be in Washington D.C. this month, so I can't submit a picture of the Capitol or the White House. They sold out a long time ago. True. But it's on ongoing sale. Confirmed then: they are prostitutes. Now, now, there's no need to insult prostitutes. I'll take them over politicians any day. Is there a difference? Have you ever been satisfied with any encounter with a politician? With a prostitute there is always the promise of some sort of satisfaction, however fleeting that might be. True dat... |
#24
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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"
On 2013-09-18 03:29:31 -0700, "J. Clarke" said:
If there is something in there about private sales please trim the rest and point it out. Cutting and pasting vast quantities of legalese without isolating the part that supports your argument suggests that you have not read it, and I can't be assed to wade through it to see if you actually found something relevant. I have more than read it, Living in California and being a gun owner I actually comprehend it. As a retired peace officer I actually take the time to read most of the laws, codes, and regulations which impact my life. I copied the entire section as it covered the procedure for purchase, private sale, and transfer between family members for firearms in California. It is not always the best move to ignore verbiage because you consider it legalese. Here is the bit pertaining to private sales: "It is illegal for any person who is not a California licensed firearms dealer (private party) to sell or transfer a firearm to another non-licensed person (private party) unless the sale is completed through a licensed California firearms dealer. A “Private Party Transfer” (PPT) can be conducted at any licensed California firearms dealership that sells handguns. The buyer and seller must complete the required DROS document in person at the licensed firearms dealership and deliver the firearm to the dealer who will retain possession of the firearm during the mandatory 10-day waiting period. In addition to the applicable state fees, the firearms dealer may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the PPT." Naturally there are going to be firearms which are obtained illegally in California and there are consequences when those are discovered. There are also implications for those gun owners living in other states who change residence to California. -- Regards, Savageduck |
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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"
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#26
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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"
In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this state. Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist anyway. Now what? Grandma is probably quite unaware of many extant laws. If Grampa's estate include meth lab equipment, a stash of marijuana, a computer loaded with image files of naked children, or anything obtained illegally, she might innocently offer them for sale. We don't pass or not pass laws based on people's knowledge of what is, or is not, legal. Meaningless noise. Grandma has disobeyed your law. Now what do you do? That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer the gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market to sell it. rolling eyes Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer for her as well? If you want to make a case for something, do it with some connection to a logical reason for your position. There is no logical connection for a background check on the sale of fishing equipment. Your argument is that Grandma selling something on Craigslist is dangerous for Grandma. Now it is up to you to explain why selling a firearm on Craigslist is more dangerous to Grandma than selling a camera or a bicycle or a fishing rod. While I would not advise Grandma to advertise expensive items of any sort on Craigslist if the sale involves strangers coming to Grandma's house when only Grandma is there, there are certain items that are more likely to attract the attention of those "mean ugly looking" people. Guns is one such category. Well, that pretty much sums it up. To you people who own firearms are all in Group W. When you actually meet a few get back to us. Heck, just ban private sales of everything unless they happen at a gun shop. Gotta protect Grandma you know. Yeah, that goes along with the NRA bull**** about "only outlaws will have guns". You're the one who brought protecting Grandma from mean ugly looking mother-stabbers and father rapers into this. So are you the NRA? Congress deals with the reality that the NRA dreams up. You go on believing that. Like something like 80 to 90 percent of the population, I believe in the need for stricter gun controls. The NRA, though, has dreamed up the "reality" that our representatives should not represent us. The dream is accompanied by generous donations to campaign funds and threats that they will support any opposing candidate in the next election. You go on believing that. |
#27
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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"
On 2013-09-18 14:04:57 -0700, "J. Clarke" said:
In article 2013091807392127544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, says... On 2013-09-18 03:29:31 -0700, "J. Clarke" said: If there is something in there about private sales please trim the rest and point it out. Cutting and pasting vast quantities of legalese without isolating the part that supports your argument suggests that you have not read it, and I can't be assed to wade through it to see if you actually found something relevant. I have more than read it, Living in California and being a gun owner I actually comprehend it. As a retired peace officer I actually take the time to read most of the laws, codes, and regulations which impact my life. I copied the entire section as it covered the procedure for purchase, private sale, and transfer between family members for firearms in California. It is not always the best move to ignore verbiage because you consider it legalese. Here is the bit pertaining to private sales: "It is illegal for any person who is not a California licensed firearms dealer (private party) to sell or transfer a firearm to another non-licensed person (private party) unless the sale is completed through a licensed California firearms dealer. A ?Private Party Transfer? (PPT) can be conducted at any licensed California firearms dealership that sells handguns. The buyer and seller must complete the required DROS document in person at the licensed firearms dealership and deliver the firearm to the dealer who will retain possession of the firearm during the mandatory 10-day waiting period. In addition to the applicable state fees, the firearms dealer may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting the PPT." Naturally there are going to be firearms which are obtained illegally in California and there are consequences when those are discovered. There are also implications for those gun owners living in other states who change residence to California. I see nothing in there that make the law enforceable. As written it is a symbolic gesture. Agreed. It is an anti-gun measure written by law makers ignorant of guns & gun culture, who are pandering to the ant-gun lobby. Our hypothetical Grandma is unlikely to be aware of that procedure and being unaware of it is not going to follow it. Well, she is a Florida Grandma, not a Californian. ;-) So what do you do about her? Nothing. And if the firearm in question is never used in the commission of crime subsequently, how does the state even become aware that she did it? As a retired peace officer I would expect you above all people to understand the problem with enforcing that law. Agreed, enforceability has always been the problem. That is one of the reasons many firearms used in crimes in California are obtained illegitimately. There is a lucrative black market in firearms run across the State line from Nevada & Arizona. Possession of those guns can, and does result in additional California weapons charges when discovered. California Law enforcement agencies remain blissfully ignorant of those illegally obtained firearms until they are used. A Californian buyer of a handgun via private sale, who does not follow the DROS procedure either out of ignorance, or to side-step the background check can have legal problems down the road if it is ever used in any capacity. For the law abiding potential gun owner, background checks & a ten day wait are a minor hurdle to overcome. Concealed carry in California is a different issue. My retired PO status gives me 50 State concealed carry privilege. I just have to maintain an annual qualification rather than the quarterly qualification when I was active. ....but that is simple enough and a fair amount of fun. Here is my current carry weapon, a Kimber Custom 1911, CDP II 45ACP. http://db.tt/hScSCe9b ....and what it can do (to paper) in the right hands. http://db.tt/FszZBooz http://db.tt/zLZHSeOX -- Regards, Savageduck |
#28
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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"
In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:04:59 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , tonycooper214 says... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this state. Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist anyway. Now what? Grandma is probably quite unaware of many extant laws. If Grampa's estate include meth lab equipment, a stash of marijuana, a computer loaded with image files of naked children, or anything obtained illegally, she might innocently offer them for sale. We don't pass or not pass laws based on people's knowledge of what is, or is not, legal. Meaningless noise. Grandma has disobeyed your law. Now what do you do? Prevent it. Require the refusal of any advertisement for a gun in any medium unless the advertiser is an authorized seller of guns. We already have restrictions in place on advertisers that the medium must observe. We require certain contractors to have a license number to advertise. We require sellers of automobiles who are dealers to reveal that they are dealers. There are many other restrictions in place. Have you been successful in enforcing those rules on Craiglist? How about community bulletin boards? There are many commonplace venues for advertising that are not subject to editorial control. That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer the gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market to sell it. rolling eyes Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer for her as well? If you want to make a case for something, do it with some connection to a logical reason for your position. There is no logical connection for a background check on the sale of fishing equipment. Your argument is that Grandma selling something on Craigslist is dangerous for Grandma. Now it is up to you to explain why selling a firearm on Craigslist is more dangerous to Grandma than selling a camera or a bicycle or a fishing rod. Up to me? All it takes is a modicum of common sense to understand why advertising the fact that you have a gun for sale can attract people who would not respond to an ad for a camera or a fishing rod. Craigslist has a search option, and the bad guys aren't searching for "Nikon" or "Daiwa". I see. So the only people who might want to buy a gun are criminals. Gotcha. While I would not advise Grandma to advertise expensive items of any sort on Craigslist if the sale involves strangers coming to Grandma's house when only Grandma is there, there are certain items that are more likely to attract the attention of those "mean ugly looking" people. Guns is one such category. Well, that pretty much sums it up. To you people who own firearms are all in Group W. When you actually meet a few get back to us. Then I'm in Group W. I own two firearms. While no survey is totally accurate, most place the number of Americans who are in favor of stricter gun laws at 80 to 90 percent of the population. Unless you think that only 10 to 20 percent of Americans own a firearm, then there are many of us firearm owners who support stricter gun control laws. Heck, just ban private sales of everything unless they happen at a gun shop. Gotta protect Grandma you know. Yeah, that goes along with the NRA bull**** about "only outlaws will have guns". You're the one who brought protecting Grandma from mean ugly looking mother-stabbers and father rapers into this. So are you the NRA? Congress deals with the reality that the NRA dreams up. You go on believing that. Like something like 80 to 90 percent of the population, I believe in the need for stricter gun controls. The NRA, though, has dreamed up the "reality" that our representatives should not represent us. The dream is accompanied by generous donations to campaign funds and threats that they will support any opposing candidate in the next election. You go on believing that. Can you dispute it? With a straight face? Dragging this back to photography, I've met these gun owners: http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Hobbie...ction-Shooting |
#29
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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"
In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:04:59 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , tonycooper214 says... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this state. Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist anyway. Now what? Grandma is probably quite unaware of many extant laws. If Grampa's estate include meth lab equipment, a stash of marijuana, a computer loaded with image files of naked children, or anything obtained illegally, she might innocently offer them for sale. We don't pass or not pass laws based on people's knowledge of what is, or is not, legal. Meaningless noise. Grandma has disobeyed your law. Now what do you do? Prevent it. Require the refusal of any advertisement for a gun in any medium unless the advertiser is an authorized seller of guns. We already have restrictions in place on advertisers that the medium must observe. We require certain contractors to have a license number to advertise. We require sellers of automobiles who are dealers to reveal that they are dealers. There are many other restrictions in place. Fine, pass such a law and figure out a way to make it stick. Hint-- internet search engines are not necessarily hosted in your state or even in the US. If they're not in the US there is absolutely nothing that US law can do about them. You seem to be big on passing more and more and more and more laws, without regard to whether any of them actually accomplish anything other than killing trees. That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer the gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market to sell it. rolling eyes Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer for her as well? If you want to make a case for something, do it with some connection to a logical reason for your position. There is no logical connection for a background check on the sale of fishing equipment. Your argument is that Grandma selling something on Craigslist is dangerous for Grandma. Now it is up to you to explain why selling a firearm on Craigslist is more dangerous to Grandma than selling a camera or a bicycle or a fishing rod. Up to me? All it takes is a modicum of common sense to understand why advertising the fact that you have a gun for sale can attract people who would not respond to an ad for a camera or a fishing rod. Craigslist has a search option, and the bad guys aren't searching for "Nikon" or "Daiwa". They aren't? So where _do_ all these terrorists who are such a deadly danger that police prevent them from taking pictures of bridges and the like get their equipment? Or are terrorist bombers OK around grandma? While I would not advise Grandma to advertise expensive items of any sort on Craigslist if the sale involves strangers coming to Grandma's house when only Grandma is there, there are certain items that are more likely to attract the attention of those "mean ugly looking" people. Guns is one such category. Well, that pretty much sums it up. To you people who own firearms are all in Group W. When you actually meet a few get back to us. Then I'm in Group W. I own two firearms. While no survey is totally accurate, most place the number of Americans who are in favor of stricter gun laws at 80 to 90 percent of the population. Unless you think that only 10 to 20 percent of Americans own a firearm, then there are many of us firearm owners who support stricter gun control laws. You're the one who is portraying firearms purchasers as being automatically suspect and unsafe to be around. If that is the case then you should be suspicious of yourself and your motives. Why _do_ you need guns anyway? Heck, just ban private sales of everything unless they happen at a gun shop. Gotta protect Grandma you know. Yeah, that goes along with the NRA bull**** about "only outlaws will have guns". You're the one who brought protecting Grandma from mean ugly looking mother-stabbers and father rapers into this. So are you the NRA? Congress deals with the reality that the NRA dreams up. You go on believing that. Like something like 80 to 90 percent of the population, I believe in the need for stricter gun controls. The NRA, though, has dreamed up the "reality" that our representatives should not represent us. The dream is accompanied by generous donations to campaign funds and threats that they will support any opposing candidate in the next election. You go on believing that. Can you dispute it? With a straight face? Have you ever looked beyond "80 to 90 percent" to find out what "stricter gun controls" they want? And then compared those to the laws actually in force? Dragging this back to photography, I've met these gun owners: http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Hobbie...ction-Shooting So that's what mother-stabbers and father-rapers look like. I always pictured them more like Arlo Guthrie. |
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[SI] New Mandate: "For Sale"
In article , tonycooper214
@gmail.com says... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 19:28:19 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , tonycooper214 says... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 17:04:59 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , tonycooper214 says... On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 08:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: It is only one, very limited, form of reality. A state law could require Grandma to sell the gun on consignment through a licensed retail gun seller. There certainly is no shortage of them in this state. Fine, you pass that law. Since Grandma has no interest in guns and gun laws and wasn't paying attention the day you passed it, she has no idea that there is such a law and goes ahead and lists the guns on Craigslist anyway. Now what? Grandma is probably quite unaware of many extant laws. If Grampa's estate include meth lab equipment, a stash of marijuana, a computer loaded with image files of naked children, or anything obtained illegally, she might innocently offer them for sale. We don't pass or not pass laws based on people's knowledge of what is, or is not, legal. Meaningless noise. Grandma has disobeyed your law. Now what do you do? Prevent it. Require the refusal of any advertisement for a gun in any medium unless the advertiser is an authorized seller of guns. We already have restrictions in place on advertisers that the medium must observe. We require certain contractors to have a license number to advertise. We require sellers of automobiles who are dealers to reveal that they are dealers. There are many other restrictions in place. Have you been successful in enforcing those rules on Craiglist? What rules? No rules exist today. There should be rules, but no rules will ever be put into effect in Florida. The NRA owns the Florida legislature. This is the state that tried to pass a law that a pediatrician should be fined $1 million - that's no typo - for initiating any discussion with a patient or patient's family about gun safety practices in the home...the "Docs and Glocks" law that was struck down by the courts. This is also the state that passed legislation that forbade cities from passing any local ordinances regarding gun control. No city in Florida can pass a local ordinance banning the carrying - open or concealed - a weapon in a children's park or school. Any gun law must be a state law. How about community bulletin boards? There are many commonplace venues for advertising that are not subject to editorial control. All I'm advocating is that *some* reasonable restrictions on the sale of guns should be imposed. There is no anticipation that all avenues can - or should be - closed. I think it's reasonable to ban gun sales at flea markets where anyone can walk up and purchase any weapon of any kind. I don't think it's reasonable to attempt to ban, by law, that "Grandma" can't sell her deceased husband's handgun to a friend or relative. And, by the way, I would exempt collector items like this one: http://tonycooper.smugmug.com/Other/...6-21-07-XL.jpg I inherited it from my father, but have since given it to my daughter. That would probably be safer for Grandma. For Grandma to offer the gun on Craigslist and meet with a total stranger is putting Grandma in danger. Worse, if Grandma is so naive to allow the stranger to come to her home. Nor do we want Grandma toting the gun to a flea market to sell it. rolling eyes Do you hear yourself? Yeah, gotta protect grandma from all those mean ugly looking mother-stabbing father raping strangers if she wants to dispose of grandpa's guns. Why don't you pass a law that says that she has to take his cameras or golf clubs or fishing tackle to a gunshop and get a background check run on the buyer as well? Wouldn't that be safer for her as well? If you want to make a case for something, do it with some connection to a logical reason for your position. There is no logical connection for a background check on the sale of fishing equipment. Your argument is that Grandma selling something on Craigslist is dangerous for Grandma. Now it is up to you to explain why selling a firearm on Craigslist is more dangerous to Grandma than selling a camera or a bicycle or a fishing rod. Up to me? All it takes is a modicum of common sense to understand why advertising the fact that you have a gun for sale can attract people who would not respond to an ad for a camera or a fishing rod. Craigslist has a search option, and the bad guys aren't searching for "Nikon" or "Daiwa". I see. So the only people who might want to buy a gun are criminals. Gotcha. Nothing about the suggestion prohibits anyone from selling or buying a gun. All it does is impose a restriction on where the gun is bought or sold. Guns could still be sold through or to, and bought from, authorized sellers that follow the laws. Tony, put some more tinfoil in your hat and wipe the foam off your mouth. |
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