Comparing Compact Flash card types

I'm shopping for a high capacity (512MB or 1 gig) for my new canon S1
IS, (I want to use its 640x480 movie capability, necessitating high
capacity). I see a few types on the market, I'm asking for info from
those that have experience or knowledge. I'm leaving brand name
considerations out, so as not to muddy the issue. So far, it looks
like the only significant difference between type I and type II is
the physical size; so if I get a type II it won't fit in my old canon
SD110. No biggy, really, I've resigned myself to get a type II. The S1
IS takes either one. So my concern is that I believe that taking
movies may REQUIRE a 'high speed' CF card, and the best I can deduce
is that the regular type will write maybe 6MB/sec, 'ultra' will write
at 9MB/sec, the 'extreme' claims 16MB/sec, but also has inernal
recovery s/w if the card fails.
A 512Mb CF card, roughly, goes for: regular type II, 100-125$. Ultra
type II, 175$. Extreme type II, 250$ !!!
Obviously, I'd rather not spend more money for speed I don't need, I
would think there's a memory buffer in the camera that acts as a
reservoir while it's filming, writing to the flash card as the flash
card can take it. But if there's any risk at all that the card is the
week point, I'm willing to spend the extra money for the 'ultra'. The
'extreme' sounds nice, but as we all know from the great 'steve's
review' (and others) site, there is third party recovery s/w available
to recover images from a failed card, so I'm dubious about the feature
of internal recovery s/w.
Please, talk to me!
thanks so much,
Rick

Checkout www.zipzoomfly.com and www.newegg.com for prices on compact flash
cards. Be sure to check www.resellerratings.com before buying online. Both
zipzoomfly and newegg have excellent recommendations and reasonable prices.

Alan D.


"Rick S." wrote in message
...
I'm shopping for a high capacity (512MB or 1 gig) for my new canon S1
IS, (I want to use its 640x480 movie capability, necessitating high
capacity). I see a few types on the market, I'm asking for info from
those that have experience or knowledge. I'm leaving brand name
considerations out, so as not to muddy the issue. So far, it looks
like the only significant difference between type I and type II is
the physical size; so if I get a type II it won't fit in my old canon
SD110. No biggy, really, I've resigned myself to get a type II. The S1
IS takes either one. So my concern is that I believe that taking
movies may REQUIRE a 'high speed' CF card, and the best I can deduce
is that the regular type will write maybe 6MB/sec, 'ultra' will write
at 9MB/sec, the 'extreme' claims 16MB/sec, but also has inernal
recovery s/w if the card fails.
A 512Mb CF card, roughly, goes for: regular type II, 100-125$. Ultra
type II, 175$. Extreme type II, 250$ !!!
Obviously, I'd rather not spend more money for speed I don't need, I
would think there's a memory buffer in the camera that acts as a
reservoir while it's filming, writing to the flash card as the flash
card can take it. But if there's any risk at all that the card is the
week point, I'm willing to spend the extra money for the 'ultra'. The
'extreme' sounds nice, but as we all know from the great 'steve's
review' (and others) site, there is third party recovery s/w available
to recover images from a failed card, so I'm dubious about the feature
of internal recovery s/w.
Please, talk to me!
thanks so much,
Rick

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:19:08 -0700, "Robert Meyers"
wrote:


"Rick S." wrote in message
.. .
A 512Mb CF card, roughly, goes for: regular type II, 100-125$. Ultra
type II, 175$. Extreme type II, 250$ !!!

If those are US dollars... you are getting taken. I have two extremes, the
last (last month) was purchased for $119 at Samys Camera (Samys.com). You
should search around. Oh, also lexar just brought out some real fast cards
recently (80x). Haven't gotten to check them out yet though.

Robert,
You're right about the prices, I know I can shop around and get 'em
cheap; I was more interested in learning why people get different
types. You said you have two extremes... why did you get extremes
instead of regular, or ultra- and are they type I or II?
Rick

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:19:08 -0700, "Robert Meyers"
wrote:


"Rick S." wrote in message
.. .
A 512Mb CF card, roughly, goes for: regular type II, 100-125$. Ultra
type II, 175$. Extreme type II, 250$ !!!

If those are US dollars... you are getting taken. I have two extremes, the
last (last month) was purchased for $119 at Samys Camera (Samys.com). You
should search around. Oh, also lexar just brought out some real fast cards
recently (80x). Haven't gotten to check them out yet though.

Robert,
You're right about the prices, I know I can shop around and get 'em
cheap; I was more interested in learning why people get different
types. You said you have two extremes... why did you get extremes
instead of regular, or ultra- and are they type I or II?
Rick

On 19 Jul 2004 14:19:05 -0700, (y_p_w) wrote:

Rick S. wrote in message . ..
I'm shopping for a high capacity (512MB or 1 gig) for my new canon S1
IS, (I want to use its 640x480 movie capability, necessitating high
capacity). I see a few types on the market, I'm asking for info from
those that have experience or knowledge. I'm leaving brand name
considerations out, so as not to muddy the issue. So far, it looks
like the only significant difference between type I and type II is
the physical size; so if I get a type II it won't fit in my old canon
SD110.

This doesn't make sense. The Canon PowerShot SD110 takes Secure
Digital (SD) cards. Most other Digital Elph/IXUS camers (such as
my PowerShot S200) take CF type I.

No biggy, really, I've resigned myself to get a type II. The S1
IS takes either one. So my concern is that I believe that taking
movies may REQUIRE a 'high speed' CF card, and the best I can deduce
is that the regular type will write maybe 6MB/sec, 'ultra' will write
at 9MB/sec, the 'extreme' claims 16MB/sec, but also has inernal
recovery s/w if the card fails.
A 512Mb CF card, roughly, goes for: regular type II, 100-125$. Ultra
type II, 175$. Extreme type II, 250$ !!!

I would take most claims of "speed" with a grain of salt. There doesn't
seem to be any real standard for what the speed ratings mean. Lexar
seems to have adopted the "X" standard, where 1X is supposedly the
1X read speed for CDs. I've found that some of my faster cards weren't
sold as "higher-end" cards. Just read the reviews and see which ones
seem to run fast. With that being said, many of the card sellers
buy their parts (or even entire cards) as commodities, and may change
their product when they can get a better price or to meet shortages.

Obviously, I'd rather not spend more money for speed I don't need, I
would think there's a memory buffer in the camera that acts as a
reservoir while it's filming, writing to the flash card as the flash
card can take it. But if there's any risk at all that the card is the
week point, I'm willing to spend the extra money for the 'ultra'. The
'extreme' sounds nice, but as we all know from the great 'steve's
review' (and others) site, there is third party recovery s/w available
to recover images from a failed card, so I'm dubious about the feature
of internal recovery s/w.
Please, talk to me!
thanks so much,
Rick

I've got a PowerShot S1 IS. I've played around with it using the
slowest CF cards I own (standard SanDisk purchased in late 2002).
It takes a long time before I can't take a shot. I supsect the
camera has a large internal high-speed memory, and that speed of
the cards won't be an issue in the camera unless you manage to max
out the internal memory. It might be an issue in an card reader.

My PowerShot S200 would max out quickly when bursting shots. With
the S1 IS, I was able to get well over 20 straight medium 1 shots
with fine compression before it refused to take any more shots.
YPW,
No, I wasn't talking about an SD110... I bought the Canon S1 IS. I see
you did too, and that's good to hear you didn't have speed problems
with a 'standard' CF card. I know the S1 IS ts not meant to be a
video cam, but it does have the 640x480 @30fps function... have you
tried that with
the standard CF card? That's mainly what I was exploring.
I like your analysis of the 'speed ratings' of different standards,
there is no real standard like there use to be when CD drives first
came out (you must be an old fogy like me to remember that), so they
must be taken with a grain of salt. I am only concerned with write
speed, which is often in the specs of these cards. It seems that it
varies from 1 or 2 Mb/sec to approx 6 to 9Mb/sec for the extremes and
ultras. Download (or 'read' speed?) speed from the card or camera
doesn't concern me; I can just set it going and walk away and have a
beer. It's the ability of the camera to write to the card while
shooting pictures that concerns me, and I think that, like you
mentioned, the Camera has an internal buffer, or internal memory.
I cannot find that data anywhere for the S1 IS, can you? (size of
buffer, etc.)
Rick

On 19 Jul 2004 14:19:05 -0700, (y_p_w) wrote:

Rick S. wrote in message . ..
I'm shopping for a high capacity (512MB or 1 gig) for my new canon S1
IS, (I want to use its 640x480 movie capability, necessitating high
capacity). I see a few types on the market, I'm asking for info from
those that have experience or knowledge. I'm leaving brand name
considerations out, so as not to muddy the issue. So far, it looks
like the only significant difference between type I and type II is
the physical size; so if I get a type II it won't fit in my old canon
SD110.

This doesn't make sense. The Canon PowerShot SD110 takes Secure
Digital (SD) cards. Most other Digital Elph/IXUS camers (such as
my PowerShot S200) take CF type I.

No biggy, really, I've resigned myself to get a type II. The S1
IS takes either one. So my concern is that I believe that taking
movies may REQUIRE a 'high speed' CF card, and the best I can deduce
is that the regular type will write maybe 6MB/sec, 'ultra' will write
at 9MB/sec, the 'extreme' claims 16MB/sec, but also has inernal
recovery s/w if the card fails.
A 512Mb CF card, roughly, goes for: regular type II, 100-125$. Ultra
type II, 175$. Extreme type II, 250$ !!!

I would take most claims of "speed" with a grain of salt. There doesn't
seem to be any real standard for what the speed ratings mean. Lexar
seems to have adopted the "X" standard, where 1X is supposedly the
1X read speed for CDs. I've found that some of my faster cards weren't
sold as "higher-end" cards. Just read the reviews and see which ones
seem to run fast. With that being said, many of the card sellers
buy their parts (or even entire cards) as commodities, and may change
their product when they can get a better price or to meet shortages.

Obviously, I'd rather not spend more money for speed I don't need, I
would think there's a memory buffer in the camera that acts as a
reservoir while it's filming, writing to the flash card as the flash
card can take it. But if there's any risk at all that the card is the
week point, I'm willing to spend the extra money for the 'ultra'. The
'extreme' sounds nice, but as we all know from the great 'steve's
review' (and others) site, there is third party recovery s/w available
to recover images from a failed card, so I'm dubious about the feature
of internal recovery s/w.
Please, talk to me!
thanks so much,
Rick

I've got a PowerShot S1 IS. I've played around with it using the
slowest CF cards I own (standard SanDisk purchased in late 2002).
It takes a long time before I can't take a shot. I supsect the
camera has a large internal high-speed memory, and that speed of
the cards won't be an issue in the camera unless you manage to max
out the internal memory. It might be an issue in an card reader.

My PowerShot S200 would max out quickly when bursting shots. With
the S1 IS, I was able to get well over 20 straight medium 1 shots
with fine compression before it refused to take any more shots.
YPW,
No, I wasn't talking about an SD110... I bought the Canon S1 IS. I see
you did too, and that's good to hear you didn't have speed problems
with a 'standard' CF card. I know the S1 IS ts not meant to be a
video cam, but it does have the 640x480 @30fps function... have you
tried that with
the standard CF card? That's mainly what I was exploring.
I like your analysis of the 'speed ratings' of different standards,
there is no real standard like there use to be when CD drives first
came out (you must be an old fogy like me to remember that), so they
must be taken with a grain of salt. I am only concerned with write
speed, which is often in the specs of these cards. It seems that it
varies from 1 or 2 Mb/sec to approx 6 to 9Mb/sec for the extremes and
ultras. Download (or 'read' speed?) speed from the card or camera
doesn't concern me; I can just set it going and walk away and have a
beer. It's the ability of the camera to write to the card while
shooting pictures that concerns me, and I think that, like you
mentioned, the Camera has an internal buffer, or internal memory.
I cannot find that data anywhere for the S1 IS, can you? (size of
buffer, etc.)
Rick

"Rick S." wrote in message ...
with a 'standard' CF card. I know the S1 IS ts not meant to be a
video cam, but it does have the 640x480 @30fps function... have you
tried that with
the standard CF card? That's mainly what I was exploring.
I like your analysis of the 'speed ratings' of different standards,
there is no real standard like there use to be when CD drives first
came out (you must be an old fogy like me to remember that), so they
must be taken with a grain of salt. I am only concerned with write
speed, which is often in the specs of these cards. It seems that it
varies from 1 or 2 Mb/sec to approx 6 to 9Mb/sec for the extremes and
ultras. Download (or 'read' speed?) speed from the card or camera
doesn't concern me; I can just set it going and walk away and have a
beer. It's the ability of the camera to write to the card while
shooting pictures that concerns me, and I think that, like you
mentioned, the Camera has an internal buffer, or internal memory.
I cannot find that data anywhere for the S1 IS, can you? (size of
buffer, etc.)
Rick

Copied from alt.comp.periphs.dcameras:

"Canon Labs claims the S1's movie mode at full resolution and frame
rate writes to a CF card at a maximum of just over 1.2MB/s, and
usually less. That's how fast your CF card should be to avoid
problems. It works out to an "8X" card or better.

"We opted for a 1GB Sandisk Ultra (Type 1), which was way
overkill, but we haven't run into any problems with the S1's movie
mode, and most other memory functions on the camera are much
faster as well (reviewing, transferring etc)."

Buffer size on the S1? No idea.

Mike

"Rick S." wrote in message ...
with a 'standard' CF card. I know the S1 IS ts not meant to be a
video cam, but it does have the 640x480 @30fps function... have you
tried that with
the standard CF card? That's mainly what I was exploring.
I like your analysis of the 'speed ratings' of different standards,
there is no real standard like there use to be when CD drives first
came out (you must be an old fogy like me to remember that), so they
must be taken with a grain of salt. I am only concerned with write
speed, which is often in the specs of these cards. It seems that it
varies from 1 or 2 Mb/sec to approx 6 to 9Mb/sec for the extremes and
ultras. Download (or 'read' speed?) speed from the card or camera
doesn't concern me; I can just set it going and walk away and have a
beer. It's the ability of the camera to write to the card while
shooting pictures that concerns me, and I think that, like you
mentioned, the Camera has an internal buffer, or internal memory.
I cannot find that data anywhere for the S1 IS, can you? (size of
buffer, etc.)
Rick

Copied from alt.comp.periphs.dcameras:

"Canon Labs claims the S1's movie mode at full resolution and frame
rate writes to a CF card at a maximum of just over 1.2MB/s, and
usually less. That's how fast your CF card should be to avoid
problems. It works out to an "8X" card or better.

"We opted for a 1GB Sandisk Ultra (Type 1), which was way
overkill, but we haven't run into any problems with the S1's movie
mode, and most other memory functions on the camera are much
faster as well (reviewing, transferring etc)."

Buffer size on the S1? No idea.

Mike

On 22 Jul 2004 11:58:37 -0700, (y_p_w) wrote:

Rick S. wrote in message . ..
On 19 Jul 2004 14:19:05 -0700, (y_p_w) wrote:

Rick S. wrote in message . ..
I'm shopping for a high capacity (512MB or 1 gig) for my new canon S1
IS, (I want to use its 640x480 movie capability, necessitating high
capacity). I see a few types on the market, I'm asking for info from
those that have experience or knowledge. I'm leaving brand name
considerations out, so as not to muddy the issue. So far, it looks
like the only significant difference between type I and type II is
the physical size; so if I get a type II it won't fit in my old canon
SD110.

I just want to note the "old canon SD110" comment. I thought your
were inferring that type I CF cards will fit in an SD110, which takes
SD cards.

I've got a PowerShot S1 IS. I've played around with it using the
slowest CF cards I own (standard SanDisk purchased in late 2002).
It takes a long time before I can't take a shot. I supsect the
camera has a large internal high-speed memory, and that speed of
the cards won't be an issue in the camera unless you manage to max
out the internal memory. It might be an issue in an card reader.

My PowerShot S200 would max out quickly when bursting shots. With
the S1 IS, I was able to get well over 20 straight medium 1 shots
with fine compression before it refused to take any more shots.

YPW,
No, I wasn't talking about an SD110... I bought the Canon S1 IS. I see
you did too, and that's good to hear you didn't have speed problems
with a 'standard' CF card. I know the S1 IS ts not meant to be a
video cam, but it does have the 640x480 @30fps function... have you
tried that with
the standard CF card? That's mainly what I was exploring.

I tried some video. My old PowerShot S200 was strictly limited in
the amount of it would store. At the lowest resolution, it would
cut out at a max of 30 seconds. With one of my slowest 128 MB
cards (red/blue SanDisk or red/black Lexar), it would sometimes
stop at as low as 26 seconds. What that tells me is that the
small internal memory filled up before the supposedly max
video time.

I tried the lower vid setting in the S1 IS, and it wouldn't cut out
all the way up to the limit of the card, even with a "slow" card.

My guess is that these cameras attemptto unload as fast as possible
to the card. If the card can't keep up, the camera stores as much
in its internal memory until it's maxed out. At that point, the
camera shuts down the recording.

I like your analysis of the 'speed ratings' of different standards,
there is no real standard like there use to be when CD drives first
came out (you must be an old fogy like me to remember that), so they
must be taken with a grain of salt. I am only concerned with write
speed, which is often in the specs of these cards. It seems that it
varies from 1 or 2 Mb/sec to approx 6 to 9Mb/sec for the extremes and
ultras. Download (or 'read' speed?) speed from the card or camera
doesn't concern me; I can just set it going and walk away and have a
beer. It's the ability of the camera to write to the card while
shooting pictures that concerns me, and I think that, like you
mentioned, the Camera has an internal buffer, or internal memory.
I cannot find that data anywhere for the S1 IS, can you? (size of
buffer, etc.)

Good luck trying to find this out. They're not published. As for
CF speed, each camera will respond differently based on several
criteria. I can imagine that a particular CF card might be mariginally
faster in one camera. The reasons are rather esoteric, and have to
do with how the clock rate of the camera lines up with the response
timing of the flash card.
y_p_w:
My mistake. Yes, my old camera is an S110. Gee, I've only been using
it for 3 years, I should get around to knowing the name of my camera!
I think I smoked a few hundred too many joints as a younger man.
At least in my later cleaner years I got a BSEE (and have used it in
the test field for a coupla decades), so I follow your reasoning on
the clock synching issue of the card receive/write ckt, vs the camera
send clock and data. I wonder if there's any handshake going on,
or the camera just sends, and if the card can 'keep up', fine, if it
can't, the camera doesn't know, it just keeps sending, hence
gaps or 'frame drops' or whatever the lingo is, when viewing the
results.
I rarely use my still cameras for video, but it is nice to have the
function available in certain instances when a short, low-quality
video is better than none at all.
I'm very interested in your tests with the S1 IS in video mode.
It's good news that your slowest card would 'take' the S1's low video
without cutting out, up until the card is filled.
Have you, or if you haven't, could you try your slower card
with the S1 in the High video mode, and see if the only constraint
is still just the size of the card?
regards,
Rick

On 22 Jul 2004 11:58:37 -0700, (y_p_w) wrote:

Rick S. wrote in message . ..
On 19 Jul 2004 14:19:05 -0700, (y_p_w) wrote:

Rick S. wrote in message . ..
I'm shopping for a high capacity (512MB or 1 gig) for my new canon S1
IS, (I want to use its 640x480 movie capability, necessitating high
capacity). I see a few types on the market, I'm asking for info from
those that have experience or knowledge. I'm leaving brand name
considerations out, so as not to muddy the issue. So far, it looks
like the only significant difference between type I and type II is
the physical size; so if I get a type II it won't fit in my old canon
SD110.

I just want to note the "old canon SD110" comment. I thought your
were inferring that type I CF cards will fit in an SD110, which takes
SD cards.

I've got a PowerShot S1 IS. I've played around with it using the
slowest CF cards I own (standard SanDisk purchased in late 2002).
It takes a long time before I can't take a shot. I supsect the
camera has a large internal high-speed memory, and that speed of
the cards won't be an issue in the camera unless you manage to max
out the internal memory. It might be an issue in an card reader.

My PowerShot S200 would max out quickly when bursting shots. With
the S1 IS, I was able to get well over 20 straight medium 1 shots
with fine compression before it refused to take any more shots.

YPW,
No, I wasn't talking about an SD110... I bought the Canon S1 IS. I see
you did too, and that's good to hear you didn't have speed problems
with a 'standard' CF card. I know the S1 IS ts not meant to be a
video cam, but it does have the 640x480 @30fps function... have you
tried that with
the standard CF card? That's mainly what I was exploring.

I tried some video. My old PowerShot S200 was strictly limited in
the amount of it would store. At the lowest resolution, it would
cut out at a max of 30 seconds. With one of my slowest 128 MB
cards (red/blue SanDisk or red/black Lexar), it would sometimes
stop at as low as 26 seconds. What that tells me is that the
small internal memory filled up before the supposedly max
video time.

I tried the lower vid setting in the S1 IS, and it wouldn't cut out
all the way up to the limit of the card, even with a "slow" card.

My guess is that these cameras attemptto unload as fast as possible
to the card. If the card can't keep up, the camera stores as much
in its internal memory until it's maxed out. At that point, the
camera shuts down the recording.

I like your analysis of the 'speed ratings' of different standards,
there is no real standard like there use to be when CD drives first
came out (you must be an old fogy like me to remember that), so they
must be taken with a grain of salt. I am only concerned with write
speed, which is often in the specs of these cards. It seems that it
varies from 1 or 2 Mb/sec to approx 6 to 9Mb/sec for the extremes and
ultras. Download (or 'read' speed?) speed from the card or camera
doesn't concern me; I can just set it going and walk away and have a
beer. It's the ability of the camera to write to the card while
shooting pictures that concerns me, and I think that, like you
mentioned, the Camera has an internal buffer, or internal memory.
I cannot find that data anywhere for the S1 IS, can you? (size of
buffer, etc.)

Good luck trying to find this out. They're not published. As for
CF speed, each camera will respond differently based on several
criteria. I can imagine that a particular CF card might be mariginally
faster in one camera. The reasons are rather esoteric, and have to
do with how the clock rate of the camera lines up with the response
timing of the flash card.
y_p_w:
My mistake. Yes, my old camera is an S110. Gee, I've only been using
it for 3 years, I should get around to knowing the name of my camera!
I think I smoked a few hundred too many joints as a younger man.
At least in my later cleaner years I got a BSEE (and have used it in
the test field for a coupla decades), so I follow your reasoning on
the clock synching issue of the card receive/write ckt, vs the camera
send clock and data. I wonder if there's any handshake going on,
or the camera just sends, and if the card can 'keep up', fine, if it
can't, the camera doesn't know, it just keeps sending, hence
gaps or 'frame drops' or whatever the lingo is, when viewing the
results.
I rarely use my still cameras for video, but it is nice to have the
function available in certain instances when a short, low-quality
video is better than none at all.
I'm very interested in your tests with the S1 IS in video mode.
It's good news that your slowest card would 'take' the S1's low video
without cutting out, up until the card is filled.
Have you, or if you haven't, could you try your slower card
with the S1 in the High video mode, and see if the only constraint
is still just the size of the card?
regards,
Rick