Reformed Pyro Workers

Dennis O'Connor wrote:

"Patrick Gainer" wrote in message Dennis,
Where do you find a paper that has a reflection density range greater
than 2.1? Cramming a 10 stop scene range into a 7 or even 8 stop paper
range has to lose one end or the other or to cause overall drabness.

Yup, gawd's truth...
I did carelessly use the term '10 stops' on the print when I mean't
zones/steps... My bad... there I said the z word, may lightning strike me
down
Now, tell me something I don't know; like how to get more stops on the paper
while retaining an adequate density difference between the steps to avoid
mud...

Most natural scenes that have such brightness range are double scenes,
like windows where you want to show interior and exterior detail as the
eye sees it. Painters do that. Photographers have to realize that they
must do that in the darkroom by dodging, burning, bleaching and any
other trick they can muster. It is not likely that a straight print of a
wide range scene will have the "life" you yearn for.

Exactly the lament of our recently reformed pyro worker in his original
post... I was merely trying to point a way out of the wilderness..
denny
The ten zones as seen by the originators of the Zone System ARE 10
f-stops of scene brightness range. You cannot get those ten zones on
paper without compressing them into 7 or at most 8. When you do, the
print looks lifeless.

My biggest complaint about your analysis of the effect of pyro, which I
did not mention before, is that it is wrong, if I read it correctly. The
stain image is not a contrast reducing mask, even on VC paper, although
it increases contrast less there than on graded paper. If you bleach the
silver image out of a pyro negative, you are left with a negative stain
image which will print on VC paper without a filter as a weak positive.
If you use a blue color separation filter, a pretty good print may
result, depending somewhat on the film's staining ability. The image you
see when you print a pyro negative on VC paper without a filter is the
sum of the silver image and the sytain image.

A different experiment is to develop a negative to low contrast, print
it, then bleach it in sepia toner bleach and redevelop it in a staining
developer. All you need for this redeveloper is 1/4 teaspoon of
hydroquinone and 1 teaspoon of sodium carbonate in a pint of water.
Develop to completion in room light. This will add a yellow-ish stain to
the silver image. Now print this negative under the same conditions as
before and you will see that the contrast has been increased whether you
use graded or VC paper.

Yes, hydroquinone is a staining developing agent.

Hmmm, that's new information to me, though I have to admit I am not much
into alchemy and do not avidly follow alternative processes...
denny

"Patrick Gainer" wrote in message
A different experiment is to develop a negative to low contrast, print
it, then bleach it in sepia toner bleach and redevelop it in a staining
developer. All you need for this redeveloper is 1/4 teaspoon of
hydroquinone and 1 teaspoon of sodium carbonate in a pint of water.
Develop to completion in room light. This will add a yellow-ish stain to
the silver image. Now print this negative under the same conditions as
before and you will see that the contrast has been increased whether you
use graded or VC paper.

Yes, hydroquinone is a staining developing agent.

Grad filters will help, though a bit difficult with windowed interiors...
Fill flash is problematic with the Sierras, Grand Canyon, etc...
The Baltimore mag link is broken...
denny
"Gregory W Blank" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote:

"Patrick Gainer" wrote in message Dennis,
Where do you find a paper that has a reflection density range greater
than 2.1? Cramming a 10 stop scene range into a 7 or even 8 stop paper
range has to lose one end or the other or to cause overall drabness.

Yup, gawd's truth...
I did carelessly use the term '10 stops' on the print when I mean't
zones/steps... My bad... there I said the z word, may lightning strike
me
down Now, tell me something I don't know; like how to get more stops on
the paper
while retaining an adequate density difference between the steps to
avoid
mud...

Nuetral Density grad filters or fill flash, or a combination of the two.
Have to do this as I, like Patrick states shoot transparencies for
interiors

Check www.baltimoremagazine.com

the Hippodrome article this months
issue. I used 4 minute exposures on Provia, counting the seconds outloud,
for the feature spread.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

See VC & Camera Arts Magazines for outstanding imagery
at www.viewcamera.com or www.cameraarts.com

This works:

http://www.baltimoremagazine.net/monthly/default.htm


denny
"Gregory W Blank" wrote in Check
www.baltimoremagazine.com

the Hippodrome article this months
issue. I used 4 minute exposures on Provia, counting the seconds outloud,
for the feature spread.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

See VC & Camera Arts Magazines for outstanding imagery
at www.viewcamera.com or www.cameraarts.com

I assume you shot LF then scanned the transparencies?
denny

"Gregory W Blank" wrote in

In article ,
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote:

I assume you shot LF then scanned the transparencies?
denny

"Gregory W Blank" wrote in



I just shoot, they scan on a high end machine.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ...


Exactly the lament of our recently reformed pyro worker in his original
post... I was merely trying to point a way out of the wilderness..
denny



Denny


Sorry not to get back sooner. I was busy tearing my hair out over some
PMK's that
decided to go contrastier than hell. Your description of pyro is
pretty much why I
like the stuff. Prints appear more atmospheric when the tones are
closer together,
although yes, it's walking a thin wire and easy to fall into mud. The
PMK's I can't explain. I must have doubled the B solution or some
such.

I posted that my initial problem
however was resolved by finding that I doubled up my printing filters
by mistake.
Freud said it was an unresolved security issue, in another newsgroup.
Its a few posts back, maybe out of sequence.Those 8x10's are very
smooth in some strong
light, and have as nice a contrast/clarity level as I could hope for.
I think D-76 would
have made them too hard. And a heavily diluted HC-110 would have left
them much
duller than this pyrocat stuff. I nominate Sandy King for Sainthood.

Moving the shadows is true. And also true is that the revival of pyro
was due to the
reaction of variable contrast papers to the colored stain acting as a
contrast filter to
those pesky highlights. I'm not shooting double scenes. Just trying to
get a zone 3
shadow and some density in the sky, instead of a white out. It's also
nice when the snow and ice doesn't fly off into a dozen different
densities and require impossible burning to get the lumpishness
smoothed out and looking natural again.

As I said, I prefer
an atmospheric look to a graphic one. The trick is to get it while
retaining enough local contrast for good readability. Details in
paticular, but also that overall upbeat brightness
that gives the feeling that the light is coming from the print,
instead of sucking it in.
..
I would guess that's why some folks are even resorting to stand dev.,
as they want both the longest tones, but need the tonal seperation of
edge effects.

And the main reason, I think, why some people don't like the pyro is
because they simply
dig the brilliant whites that standard developers deliver. Sound
right? I think that the
best compromise, so far, is finely tuned pyro, not only for VC, but
also the Azo.

I was hoping to hear more about why aesthetically some people turned
away from
pyro with this thread, without the step tablet explainations...not
that theres anything
wrong with that. But it's always fun to hear what others like in their
work.

The pyrocat I'm using these days has done great
gobs of good work, and there really are only a few occasions where I
wish I had
another sheet of the scene to dip into D-76.

Thanks for your time
Ken Smith ( just me and my cat )
Wyoming

OK Ken... Glad to hear the problems are solved... In the interim, Patrick
pointed out gently that I went off into the weeds and had my foot firmly
wedged in my mouth during my soliloquy on pyro and band aids...

{denny, oh denny, wherefore art thou?}
{{over here in the weeds picking grit from between my teeth, juliet!}}

Well, I hate being wrong, and besides physics is physics so he can't be
right...
so, I went and did some actual reading on pyro doh...
As usual, he is right and I was wrong, physics or no physics... The pyro
stain is not bound to the gelatin, as I reasoned, so my reasoning went off
into the weeds... And the density is variably proportional to the density of
silver, thus mimicking color coupled dye films... Plus the stains act like
paper grade filters... jeezzzz
Actually, the pyro looks interesting...

Durn it, there you go again Patrick, leading me astray, beckoning me to muck
about with bottles and trays of elusive, intangible and unclassifiable
noxious chemicals... And you bear some responsibility here too, Ken, so wipe
that smirk off...

cheers

denny - worthless lab rat who used to be a gawd like PHOTOGRAPHER!

"Ken Smith" wrote in message The pyrocat I'm using
these days has done great
gobs of good work, and there really are only a few occasions where I
wish I had
another sheet of the scene to dip into D-76.

Thanks for your time
Ken Smith ( just me and my cat )
Wyoming

In article ,
"Dennis O'Connor" wrote:

OK Ken... Glad to hear the problems are solved... In the interim, Patrick
pointed out gently that I went off into the weeds and had my foot firmly
wedged in my mouth during my soliloquy on pyro and band aids...

{denny, oh denny, wherefore art thou?}
{{over here in the weeds picking grit from between my teeth, juliet!}}

Well, I hate being wrong, and besides physics is physics so he can't be
right...
so, I went and did some actual reading on pyro doh...
As usual, he is right and I was wrong, physics or no physics... The pyro
stain is not bound to the gelatin, as I reasoned, so my reasoning went off
into the weeds... And the density is variably proportional to the density of
silver, thus mimicking color coupled dye films... Plus the stains act like
paper grade filters... jeezzzz
Actually, the pyro looks interesting...

Durn it, there you go again Patrick, leading me astray, beckoning me to muck
about with bottles and trays of elusive, intangible and unclassifiable
noxious chemicals... And you bear some responsibility here too, Ken, so wipe
that smirk off...
cheers
denny - worthless lab rat who used to be a gawd like PHOTOGRAPHER!

Mr Gainer has alot of respect from my corner I guess becuase at one point
I wanted to be a chemist. Without reading that before hand I
would have stated the same regarding the stain becauzzzze if you run a sheet
of film without exposure and process it in pyro there is still stain,...even though
the "emulsion is long since soaked away.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

Patrick Gainer wrote in message

My biggest complaint about your analysis of the effect of pyro, which I
did not mention before, is that it is wrong, if I read it correctly. The
stain image is not a contrast reducing mask, even on VC paper,

Oh, it figures, now I'm wrong about this too. Is there nothing I can
know technically about my own craft!!! I'm just going to shut up and make my
friggin pictures from now on. I promise. Farewell cruel newsgroup.

Ken Smith
Still in Wyoming