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#71
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an excellent read from the ACLU
On 12/14/2011 2:53 AM, Trevor wrote:
wrote in message ... As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or government to rob him instead :-( Were they forced to buy? Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any say in it. Was there coercion? Governments control the police force, armies, national guard, security agencies etc. How much more coercion do you need! :-) Here is the contest of my question/comment. Your Snipping clearly shows intellectual dishonesty? Your trying to change the subject to something I never commented on shows intellectual dishonesty. You said: " It was the US banks that sold them truck loads of worthless junk bonds though. Stupid of the Europeans to think US banks were motivated by anything other than outright greed though, which of course is what the Eurpopeans were also doing when they bought them! As smart people know, you can't con an honest man, it takes a gun or government to rob him instead..." that way the comment to which I asked my question. So you are happy to ignore the rest of what I have said in the thread, and yet complain about my snipping? Google is there for people who can't remember what was posted, and don't have their own copy. Snipping simply highlights what is actually being referred to. Your response to my question was a meaningless rant As opposed to your meaningless rant? Trevor. That's a nice practice. when you do not care to give a proper response. you change the topic by making an unfounded statement about the poster. Say what you will. As you point out, the full context is there for anyone to see. EOD -- Peter |
#72
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an excellent read from the ACLU
PeterN wrote:
On 12/10/2011 1:56 PM, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: wrote: On 12/8/2011 3:29 PM, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: wrote: On 2011-12-04 19:11:00 -0800, said: Why not, isn't it the capitalists in France causing that problem? Seems to me the US capitalists are far worse. Just wait and see what the German capitalists have in mind for Europe. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...wTO_story.html Start behaving more responsible? 'orrible. The poor Greek ... imagine having to have money before spending it! It's the end of the world --- and all that because of US banks. Please explain, in clear English, with supporting facts, exactly why it is the fault of the US banking system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-20...nancial_crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-20..._Europe#Greece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Eu...is#Speculators You have supplied links to the thoughts of others. YOUR interpretation and thoughts are conspicuous by their absence. My interpretation and thoughts aren't needed for well known facts. BTW, you are drastically shifting goal posts. How about you explain, with facts(!), that the US banks had nothing to do with any global recession, and that a recession can never cause economies that need growth to survive to falter. If you manage that, you can become a well-paid ghost writer for some of the politicans further removed from reality. No! I am not going to wade through unexplained links. this paper gets an "F" You're not allowed to grade on shifted goal posts, assuming for a second you *were* capable of grading me in any subject in first place. -Wolfgang |
#73
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an excellent read from the ACLU
Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes. Please fill out: The top 1% own ...% of the money, but pay 40% of the FIT The top 5% own ...% of the money, but pay 70% of the FIT The top 10% own ...% of the money, but pay 80% of the FIT And BTW, the top 10% pay at most 50%. I give you http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/money_huge.png 10 trillion USD in US households. The top 1% gets 2 trillion. The bottom 50% get 2 trillion, too. Yes, there are more taxes paid from the top 1% than from the bottom 50%. Unfortunately, not ~50 times more, but only ca. 3 times more. So 1.6 million households (worth 2 trillion income) pay 3 times more than 63 million households (also worth 2 trillion income). In other words, a single household in the bottom 50% pays *13 times* as much of it's income in FIT than a single household. So the *burden* is not born by the rich, they pay vastly less than an equal share of their income, no matter that they could afford a larger share of their income. -Wolfgang |
#74
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an excellent read from the ACLU
Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
My figures are correct, check them out for yourself So where are they? URLs, please ... -Wolfgang |
#75
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an excellent read from the ACLU
In article , "Trevor" wrote:
"Pete Stavrakoglou" wrote in message ... Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection, Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected taxes from the rich and big corporations. Oh please, 40+ percent of the US doesnt even pay a penny in taxes where the rich pay approx 52% It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country! Trevor. |
#76
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an excellent read from the ACLU
In article , tony cooper wrote:
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:09:59 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou" wrote: "tony cooper" wrote in message . .. On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:17:09 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou" wrote: "tony cooper" wrote in message m... On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:41:46 -0500, "Pete Stavrakoglou" wrote: "Trevor" wrote in message ... "tony cooper" wrote in message news Governments do the buying with taxpayers money, taxpayers rarely have any say in it. The government employees who do the buying are, themselves, taxpayers. In fact, they are sharing the burden more than many since they are employed - usually at rather good salaries That's the problem, it's not their money they waste, and they usually have a far better life style than many others. and paying income taxes, property taxes, and taxes on purchases. Which is why they love flat taxes so much. The old days of progressive taxes where those who could afford it actually paid more, are just about gone unfortunately. The new paradigm is the richer you are, the better the accountant you can afford, shelf companies you can set up, family trusts you can utilise, off shore tax havens you can register, and the less tax you actually pay. The tax burdon now falls almost entirely on the middle class and poorest members of the community because they have no ability to escape it. Trevor. Your claim tha the burden falls on the middle class is wrong. 40% of all federal income taxes are paid by the top 1%, the top 5% pay over 70% of all federal income taxes, the top 10% pay over 80% of all federal income taxes. The validity of the claim depends on what you think "the burden" means. If you consider that the group paying the highest percentage of all income taxes paid has the burden, then the statement is wrong. If you consider that the group paying out the highest percentage of their income has the burden, then the statement is correct. There's no obfuscating on this. The "rich" pay their fair share while the bottom 50% of income earners pay zero federal income taxes. The top 10% of earners are shouldering the tax burden for 80% of the country. That is quite a "burden" no matter how you try to spin it. Speaking of spin...the original statement deals with the middle class. What you have pointed out is that the *bottom* 50% of the wage earners pay no taxes. I pointed out a lot more than that and I'm not the one trying to spin this one Tony, you are. That "pay zero federal income taxes" is spin. The bottom 50% of the wage earners loan the government money for twelve months of the year. If they're earning a wage, withholding is taken out. They may get back part or all of that money as a refund, but they don't have use of the money until the refund is received. Also "spin" is "fair share". If they get it all back, then they paid "NO" taxes! And on top of getting it all back, so many people squirt out endless little kids and get thousands given to them that they didnt even earn via Child Tax Credits etc... Why should i pay taxes just so those popping out endless kids can get my hard earned money? |
#77
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an excellent read from the ACLU
Eric Stevens wrote:
On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:56:37 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg PeterN wrote: Please explain, in clear English, with supporting facts, exactly why it is the fault of the US banking system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-20...nancial_crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-20..._Europe#Greece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Eu...is#Speculators It wasn't the US Banks which caused just about every country in the world to pour out money by the bucket load for frivolous reasons within their own economies. True. It wasn't the heavy earthquake far away from the usual earthquake areas that built the buildings it tore down. And indeed, spending money to save banks was frivolously spent, as nobody gained influence over these run-away nuclear reactions doing that. Turns out not spending the money is even worse. -Wolfgang |
#78
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an excellent read from the ACLU
On 13/12/2011 13:44, Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
wrote in message ... "Pete wrote in message ... Greece is in the state it's in because of government spending, overly generous government benefits, lack of adequate tax collection, Dead right there, just as the US would be OK *IF* they actually collected taxes from the rich and big corporations. It's certainly not the poor where most of the money went in either country! Trevor. Per my last post. The top 1% pay over 40% of all federal income taxes, the top 5% over 70% and te top 10% over 80%. You can take all of the money rich people have and it would not put a dent in the deficit because our federal government has an insatiable appetite to spend. You appear to be confusing marginal rates of taxation with actual taxes paid - and that still assumes the highest earners do not cheat. See for example the graph of top US marginal rate of taxation 1916-2010 and you can quickly understand why the US is near bankrupt now. http://visualizingeconomics.com/2011...tes-1916-2010/ Or you can look at historical tax rates by income group http://visualizingeconomics.com/2007...-income-group/ Left as an excercise for the reader to compute the actual tax take from each sector. What is entirely certain is that your claim is total garbage. The present US system is geared to making the already super rich elite with influence who can bribe politicians ever richer. Regards, Martin Brown |
#79
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an excellent read from the ACLU
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