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#21
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
On Aug 26, 2018, Sandman wrote
(in ): In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: Sandman: In what way did they miss the mark, though? Start with the single memory slot. Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint. That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF, inconsistant AF-C tracking to name a few other complaints. Sandman: Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. ...er, not too much smaller Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon has ever made. So Nikon is making in-house comparisons. , especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras. Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price point so the comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market for a Nikon FF camera today I would not be impressed with the Z7, and I would buy a D850. Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200, D7500, and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC. Sandman: The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched any reviews yet. From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world. Seeing how Sony A7 focusing speed trounces Nikon today, if they want to compete, that's an important factor. Yup! Sandman: As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their customers. Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options. For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7. ....and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others. Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100. I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite lightweight DSLRs. even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of. Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have damaged their APS-C market share. Sandman: Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story. For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who are going to be tempted. I bet. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#22
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
On Aug 26, 2018, Savageduck wrote
(in iganews.com): On Aug 26, 2018, Sandman wrote (in ): In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: Sandman: In what way did they miss the mark, though? Start with the single memory slot. Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint. That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF, inconsistant AF-C tracking to name a few other complaints. Sandman: Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. ...er, not too much smaller Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon has ever made. So Nikon is making in-house comparisons. , especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras. Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price point so the comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market for a Nikon FF camera today I would not be impressed with the Z7, and I would buy a D850. Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200, D7500, and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC. Sandman: The unknowns, at least to me, is focusing speed. I haven't watched any reviews yet. From what I have read the AF does not match up to the D850, D5, or D500, and Nikon isn’t going to erode sales of those cameras with either the Z6, or Z7. They are going to try to get a piece of the Sony FF pie, and they are going to pick up sales fron Nikon FF DSLR owners who have been reluctant to move into the MILC world. Seeing how Sony A7 focusing speed trounces Nikon today, if they want to compete, that's an important factor. Yup! Sandman: As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their customers. Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options. For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7. ...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others. Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100. I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite lightweight DSLRs. even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of. Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have damaged their APS-C market share. Sandman: Whether it's a worthy competitor to the A7R III is another story. For now it seems the Sony has the edge. However, there are going to be a whole bunch of Nikon FF shooters with legacy F mount glass who are going to be tempted. I bet. Here is Thom Hogan’s take on the Nikon V6, and V7. http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/nikon-re-enters-mirrorless.html -- Regards, Savageduck |
#23
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
In article .com,
Savageduck wrote: In what way did they miss the mark, though? Savageduck: Start with the single memory slot. Sandman: Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint. That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF Neither does the D850 or D500, remember? Sandman: Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. Savageduck: ...er, not too much smaller Sandman: Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon has ever made. So Nikon is making in-house comparisons. No, you a Savageduck Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot. 08/24/2018 .com "I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can replace the D850, 0r even the D500, but not yet." That's what you said, to which I asked "in what way did they miss the mark?" above. You're the one that comparing it to the D850 and D500. Savageduck: , especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. Sandman: But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras. Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price point so the comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market for a Nikon FF camera today I would not be impressed with the Z7, and I would buy a D850. Cool, more power to you Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200, D7500, and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC. Same as Sony. Grab the upper market first, then move down with innovations. They're just five years late, but they do have an edge when it comes to lenses, so... It's hard to say. If/when the Z line becomes successful, you'll see Z60, Z600 and Z3000 or whatever for consumer versions as well, I bet. This is pretty much how cameras and most tech products work. You create a top of the line products first and move down from there. You see it in the Sony A7, Tesla Model S, iPod, iPhone and so on. You have to go in and get the margins first, in order to trickle down the technology when it makes money. Sandman: As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. Savageduck: ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. Sandman: Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their customers. Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options. Of course, since they don't have a APS-C offering yet. See above. They are late to this party, but this is the only way to do it. The prosumer/pro market is where the money is. The consumer market is where everyone fights with super thin margins. Savageduck: For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Sandman: Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7. ...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others. There are no others. It's only Sony. There are only others when it comes to APS-C. And there is very little money there. I am guessing, since I don't actually have much data, that there aren't very many camera makes that are making a lot of money from the consumer APS-C mirrorless market. The margins are usually too small. The only reason there *is* a consumer camera market is that most camera makers are hoping they will upgrade to their better cameras where they make more money. Some camera makers make only APS-C, but I believe they're still used to low margins. Even for Fujifilm, cameras is a very small part of their overall business. Savageduck: Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. Sandman: Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100. I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite lightweight DSLRs. They are, but the difference is pretty big: https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/nikon-d7100-vs-nikon-z6 Savageduck: even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. Sandman: That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of. Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have damaged their APS-C market share. No, the Z6 and Z7 haven't or can't damage their APS-C market share. People that have or were considering Nikon's APS-C cameras have either bought a APS-S Nikon or a APS-C camera from someone else. Nikon will - depending on how the Z series works out - release mirrorless APS-C in the future. But the release of the Z6 and Z7 haven't changed anything for these customers today. While the A6XXX Sony series seem to be doing well, I don't think it's doing as well as the Nikon/Canon APS-C cameras. The place where Sony is doing really well is in FF mirrorless, i.e the A7/9 series. Or rather the A7 series, I don't know if the A9 have been an enormous success. -- Sandman |
#24
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
On Aug 26, 2018, Sandman wrote
(in ): In iganews.com, Savageduck wrote: In what way did they miss the mark, though? Savageduck: Start with the single memory slot. Sandman: Yeah, that seems to be the only valid complaint. That and a few AF issues, such as no eye-AF Neither does the D850 or D500, remember? Sandman: Same resolution, more focusing points, smaller camera, higher frame rate. Savageduck: ...er, not too much smaller Sandman: Huh? It's a lot smaller. It's by far the smallest FF digital camera Nikon has ever made. So Nikon is making in-house comparisons. No, you a Savageduck Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot. news.com "I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can replace the D850, 0r even the D500, but not yet." That's what you said, to which I asked "in what way did they miss the mark?" above. You're the one that comparing it to the D850 and D500. Then it seems silly that they are priced for folks who either own the high end Nikon FF DSLRs, or those who are shopping for a high end Nikon FF camera. What does Nikon want to sell, DSLRs, or MILCs? Savageduck: , especially with the fat “S" glass designed for the Zs. In a smaller world the M43, and APS-C MILCs have nothing to fear from the FF MILCs. Sandman: But you compared it to the D850, not to lesser smaller cameras. Of course I compared it D850. It uses the same sensor, and price point so the comparison is fair. However, if I were in the market for a Nikon FF camera today I would not be impressed with the Z7, and I would buy a D850. Cool, more power to you I did say if I were in the market for a FF camera. However, I am still an old fart enthusiast/hobbyist, and APS-C works just fine for me, so I am not in the market for either these Z cameras, or a D850, but the D500 is very tempting Then one wonders what Nikon has in mind for all those D7100, D7200, D7500, and D500 shooters who are waiting for a Nikon APS-C MILC. Same as Sony. Grab the upper market first, then move down with innovations. They're just five years late, but they do have an edge when it comes to lenses, so... It's hard to say. If/when the Z line becomes successful, you'll see Z60, Z600 and Z3000 or whatever for consumer versions as well, I bet. Perhaps. This is pretty much how cameras and most tech products work. You create a top of the line products first and move down from there. You see it in the Sony A7, Tesla Model S, iPod, iPhone and so on. You have to go in and get the margins first, in order to trickle down the technology when it makes money. Sandman: As far as I can determine, the D850 has it beat on shots per battery charge. Savageduck: ...and that is another issue. If Nikon is trying to produce a pro FF MILC it needs to compete with the Nikon pro DSLRs with all specs, including battery life. Sandman: Nikon is trying to compete with the A7, not their own DSLR's. A non- insignificant part of the photographing world is moving to mirrorless, and Nikon is missing out. In doing so, their target is not to compete with their own top of the line DSLR's but with the guys that keep snatching up their customers. Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options. Of course, since they don't have a APS-C offering yet. See above. They are late to this party, but this is the only way to do it. The prosumer/pro market is where the money is. The consumer market is where everyone fights with super thin margins. Don’t you love it when a plan comes together. ;-) Savageduck: For now both the Z6 & Z7 are high priced prosumer MILCs with a limited native lens availability (admitedly there is the promise of the “S” lens roadmap). Sandman: Indeed, which is exactly where Sony was a bunch of years ago, with the A7. ...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others. There are no others. It's only Sony. We are waiting on Canon. There are only others when it comes to APS-C. And there is very little money there. I am guessing, since I don't actually have much data, that there aren't very many camera makes that are making a lot of money from the consumer APS-C mirrorless market. The margins are usually too small. The only reason there *is* a consumer camera market is that most camera makers are hoping they will upgrade to their better cameras where they make more money. Some camera makers make only APS-C, but I believe they're still used to low margins. Even for Fujifilm, cameras is a very small part of their overall business. Savageduck: Using F mount lenses with the adaptor turns what should be a reasonably compact system into an unwieldly kludge. Sandman: Huh? You're not making much sense. The adaptor increases the flange distance, i.e. it adds bulk that is already present in all current F-mount Nikon cameras to be backwards compatible. A Z6 plus the adapter would be as "unwieldy" as a D7100. I would reserve judgement on that, the D7xxx family are quite lightweight DSLRs. They are, but the difference is pretty big: https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/nikon-d7100-vs-nikon-z6 Savageduck: even with the adaptor none of their older screw focus lenses will work. For folks looking for a FF MILC system they should consider the Sony offerings. Sandman: That's already what they are doing. Sony is the only player, and they're doing a marvellous job, with amazing offerings for prosumer up to pro. That's the piece of the pie that Nikon is losing and is wanting to get back. Backwards compatibility with the F-mount is pretty crucial to that, seeing how Nikon has a hundred times more and better glass than Sony could ever dream of. Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have damaged their APS-C market share. No, the Z6 and Z7 haven't or can't damage their APS-C market share. People that have or were considering Nikon's APS-C cameras have either bought a APS-S Nikon or a APS-C camera from someone else. Nikon will - depending on how the Z series works out - release mirrorless APS-C in the future. But the release of the Z6 and Z7 haven't changed anything for these customers today. One would hope. While the A6XXX Sony series seem to be doing well, I don't think it's doing as well as the Nikon/Canon APS-C cameras. The place where Sony is doing really well is in FF mirrorless, i.e the A7/9 series. Or rather the A7 series, I don't know if the A9 have been an enormous success. I guess the old Chinese curse is in effect; “May you live in interesting times.” So now we wait on Canon to see what they deliver to the FF MILC fight. ....and we wait another 2-5 years to see if Nikon does anything with APS-C for MILC. Fujifilm is about to release the X-T3 with a new BIL sensor which will migrate to the X-H2. Along with that will be their less costly GFX-50R, a rangefinder MF, supposedly around $2000 (an X-Pro on steroids). -- Regards, Savageduck |
#25
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Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot.
In article .com,
Savageduck wrote: Sandman: No, you a Savageduck Nikon mirrorless FF's launch. Sony FF sales about to drop. A lot. news.com "I think I will skip either one of these. Nikon missed the MILC target with these two cameras, but it is a start, so perhaps in 4-5 years they will have a good MILC which can replace the D850, 0r even the D500, but not yet." That's what you said, to which I asked "in what way did they miss the mark?" above. You're the one that comparing it to the D850 and D500. Then it seems silly that they are priced for folks who either own the high end Nikon FF DSLRs, or those who are shopping for a high end Nikon FF camera. What does Nikon want to sell, DSLRs, or MILCs? Both, preferably. They want to *stop* losing customers to Sony. Currently they are bleeding high end DSLR customers to high end Sony mirrorless. By offering a high end mirrorless, they hope to stop this. Savageduck: Unfortunately they are positioning themselves to loose a large share of the consumer APS-C DSLR market they own, to the other mirrorless options. Sandman: Of course, since they don't have a APS-C offering yet. See above. They are late to this party, but this is the only way to do it. The prosumer/pro market is where the money is. The consumer market is where everyone fights with super thin margins. Don’t you love it when a plan comes together. ;-) Sony does We see this way too often in tech. Someone creates a new product niche, a niche that isn't really innovative in itself, but it's a niche that the major players haven't worked towards because their current business line works "just fine". When they see large parts of the customer base move to this new niche - they have to act, but they can't act too quick, they have to get it right. Or they're stubborn (Microsoft when the iPhone was released). So being five years late is pretty much par for the course. Sony didn't rule overnight, it took a year or two before Nikon could see the effect of the A7, and then another year of stubbornness perhaps, and then another two years of development of the Z line. You can't turn around something as big as Nikon overnight. Savageduck: ...and now Nikon is still a bunch of years behind Sony, and the others. Sandman: There are no others. It's only Sony. We are waiting on Canon. Nikon isn't Savageduck: Agreed. However, as promising as the Z-cameras are from the release hype, they have a long way to go to catch up to Sony, and they might well have damaged their APS-C market share. Sandman: No, the Z6 and Z7 haven't or can't damage their APS-C market share. People that have or were considering Nikon's APS-C cameras have either bought a APS-S Nikon or a APS-C camera from someone else. Nikon will - depending on how the Z series works out - release mirrorless APS-C in the future. But the release of the Z6 and Z7 haven't changed anything for these customers today. One would hope. You said it yourself - you're a APS-C user yourself, and a good example of this. You currently have a Nikon and a Fuji APS-C, your next camera could be a Nikon D500 or another Fuji, the existence of the Z6 hasn't changed anything for you. It's not like you'd choose the Fuji *because* Nikon released the Z6. If anything, you are allowed to be a bit miffed about the fact that Nikon doesn't yet have an APS-C mirrorless lineup timeline, but that doesn't change what products that are available to you today. Sandman: While the A6XXX Sony series seem to be doing well, I don't think it's doing as well as the Nikon/Canon APS-C cameras. The place where Sony is doing really well is in FF mirrorless, i.e the A7/9 series. Or rather the A7 series, I don't know if the A9 have been an enormous success. I guess the old Chinese curse is in effect; “May you live in interesting times.” So now we wait on Canon to see what they deliver to the FF MILC fight. Indeed. Canon is in the same boat as Nikon here. Or rather, they're still outside the boat, but when they do get into the boat, they have to start from scratch. Well, unless they use the same mount to have 100% backwards compatibility, then they have a real edge. ...and we wait another 2-5 years to see if Nikon does anything with APS-C for MILC. Something like that. Give it at least two years before Nikon can determine if the Z line has been a success. -- Sandman |
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