Pyro Staining B&W negatives vs. C-41 Monochromatic film

KS wrote:
"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message
om...

"KS" not.me@com wrote in message

news:WifTc.97257$M95.43550@pd7tw1no...

What are the advantages/differences between using say ABC Pyro as

opposed to

C-41 based B&W process film? I'm debating whether it is worth the

trouble to

use play around with pyro. Thx.

ABC is a very old formula, and I doubt you will have very good results
with modern films. Pyro is highly toxic and tricky to work with. It's
hard to control the staining, as stop baths and fixers will bleach it
out depending on various conditions.

Pyro today has very little to recommend it.


OK how about PMK?


I use PMK as my default for developing B&W films. I also
use other developers as the particular film and conditions
indicate. The batch of PMK I am now using was made up 2 or
3 years ago - I had made a liter of Part A. I refrigerate
Part A and it has lasted just fine. The result is that very
rarely do I have to deal with preparation of a stock
solution. When I do, I use a dust mask and gloves. Once in
solution, the only risk to health is if you soak your hands
in the solution.


When I use PMK with TMX or TMY or any t-grained film, I find
that it works best if I add 2 or 3 minutes to the times
recommended in Anchell and Troop, The Film Developing Book.


I note that C-41 BW film is pretty much all alike. Itis
simply color C-41 film without the dyes. So you cannot get
the variations in film that traditional B&W films offer.
Nor can you use variant methods of developing the film, as
you can with traditional B&W films.


Francis A. Miniter

KS wrote:
"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message
om...

"KS" not.me@com wrote in message

news:WifTc.97257$M95.43550@pd7tw1no...

What are the advantages/differences between using say ABC Pyro as

opposed to

C-41 based B&W process film? I'm debating whether it is worth the

trouble to

use play around with pyro. Thx.

ABC is a very old formula, and I doubt you will have very good results
with modern films. Pyro is highly toxic and tricky to work with. It's
hard to control the staining, as stop baths and fixers will bleach it
out depending on various conditions.

Pyro today has very little to recommend it.


OK how about PMK?


I use PMK as my default for developing B&W films. I also
use other developers as the particular film and conditions
indicate. The batch of PMK I am now using was made up 2 or
3 years ago - I had made a liter of Part A. I refrigerate
Part A and it has lasted just fine. The result is that very
rarely do I have to deal with preparation of a stock
solution. When I do, I use a dust mask and gloves. Once in
solution, the only risk to health is if you soak your hands
in the solution.


When I use PMK with TMX or TMY or any t-grained film, I find
that it works best if I add 2 or 3 minutes to the times
recommended in Anchell and Troop, The Film Developing Book.


I note that C-41 BW film is pretty much all alike. Itis
simply color C-41 film without the dyes. So you cannot get
the variations in film that traditional B&W films offer.
Nor can you use variant methods of developing the film, as
you can with traditional B&W films.


Francis A. Miniter

In article IZJTc.109988$M95.36710@pd7tw1no, "KS"
wrote:


OK let's say it's PMK. I know absolutely nothing about Pyros at this point.
Just some cursory readings at present. I've read that it's a dye or stain
which is in some ways similar to the way color film (e.g. monochromatic c41)
works.

Think of Pyro stained negatives as having a yellow or yellow green filter
built in, contrast reduction is the biggest selling point of PMK or any
kind of Pyro. I've tried quite of few of the Pyro incarnations.
Personally I like the Rollo version which incorporates Vitamin C
"ascorbic acid" in the recipe. Seems more stable and consistant. The
best stain seems to be obtained which non T grained films with the
exception of Delta 100 which I find acceptable. Delta 400 also stains
nicely (But I mainly shoot LF).

For small format 35mm negatives Pyro is probably not the best choice
MF should be ok, Though for T grained films it would be Ok if it stains
them.

Best results with PMK can be obtained by doing two things:

a) Split the developer into two equal amounts for the
total development time. In other words pour out the first half and
replace it using fresh developer after half the development time has
elapsed.


b) Mix part b of the developer into the water and part a just prior to
using it and a pinch of amidol will give the developer a little
boost and will produce a little more film speed.

These are not new ideas, just ones which some here have shared,
and some taken from the Darkroom Cookbook which I recommend.


I first want to use it on 35mm, and medium format negs, then I'll try
8X10. Will I see a improvement in my negs?

It depends on how careful a darkroom worker you are, I tend to
feel the more careful you are the better results you can get from any
developer and film. People want painless solutions (pun intended)
There are not very many.

I want to work toward contact
printing from 8X10 or digital negs to palladium at some point in the future.

Well decide. The sooner the better.

--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

In article IZJTc.109988$M95.36710@pd7tw1no, "KS"
wrote:


OK let's say it's PMK. I know absolutely nothing about Pyros at this point.
Just some cursory readings at present. I've read that it's a dye or stain
which is in some ways similar to the way color film (e.g. monochromatic c41)
works.

Think of Pyro stained negatives as having a yellow or yellow green filter
built in, contrast reduction is the biggest selling point of PMK or any
kind of Pyro. I've tried quite of few of the Pyro incarnations.
Personally I like the Rollo version which incorporates Vitamin C
"ascorbic acid" in the recipe. Seems more stable and consistant. The
best stain seems to be obtained which non T grained films with the
exception of Delta 100 which I find acceptable. Delta 400 also stains
nicely (But I mainly shoot LF).

For small format 35mm negatives Pyro is probably not the best choice
MF should be ok, Though for T grained films it would be Ok if it stains
them.

Best results with PMK can be obtained by doing two things:

a) Split the developer into two equal amounts for the
total development time. In other words pour out the first half and
replace it using fresh developer after half the development time has
elapsed.


b) Mix part b of the developer into the water and part a just prior to
using it and a pinch of amidol will give the developer a little
boost and will produce a little more film speed.

These are not new ideas, just ones which some here have shared,
and some taken from the Darkroom Cookbook which I recommend.


I first want to use it on 35mm, and medium format negs, then I'll try
8X10. Will I see a improvement in my negs?

It depends on how careful a darkroom worker you are, I tend to
feel the more careful you are the better results you can get from any
developer and film. People want painless solutions (pun intended)
There are not very many.

I want to work toward contact
printing from 8X10 or digital negs to palladium at some point in the future.

Well decide. The sooner the better.

--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

"KS" not.me@com wrote in message news:WifTc.97257$M95.43550@pd7tw1no...
What are the advantages/differences between using say ABC Pyro as opposed to
C-41 based B&W process film? I'm debating whether it is worth the trouble to
use play around with pyro. Thx.


Especially for small format film, there are better developers.

"Jim Phelps" wrote in message ...
"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message
om...
"KS" not.me@com wrote in message
news:WifTc.97257$M95.43550@pd7tw1no...
What are the advantages/differences between using say ABC Pyro as
opposed to
C-41 based B&W process film? I'm debating whether it is worth the
trouble to
use play around with pyro. Thx.

ABC is a very old formula, and I doubt you will have very good results
with modern films. Pyro is highly toxic and tricky to work with. It's
hard to control the staining, as stop baths and fixers will bleach it
out depending on various conditions.

Pyro today has very little to recommend it.

It's utterly amazing how little you really know Mike. The only thing you
got right was it's an old formula, but then again, so is Rodinal...

Right. Rodinal has been surpassed, but some people still use it in
ignorance of the fact that it has been superseded...

Pyro in all of it's formulations works fine with most modern emulsion films.
ABC pryo inclusive. Due to it's staining characteristics negatives
developed in Pyro print exceptionally well with variable contrast papers.


Bull****. The yellow stain acts as density with standard graded
papers, as they are blue-sensitive only. VC papers act completely
differently, and the yellow stain acts as a filter, lowering the
contrast and density in the highlights.

Using an alkaline fixer formula (TF-3 or TF-4), and a water bath between dev
and fix and staining can be controlled very well.

As I said, you have to watch stop baths and fixers carefully. Acid
stops and fixers can bleach out the stain.

A post fixer bath of an
alkaline solution enhances the stain formation. Since the developer is a
one shot process and alkaline in pH, most use the spent developer for this
bath. You do it with the lights on so you can control the staining.

While toxic, it's no more toxic than many normal household products, with
the exception that it's easily absorbed through the skin. So gloves and
dust mask are a necessity.

As I said, it's highly toxic stuff.

MSDS shows the LD 50 in rats to be 789 mg to 1
kg body weight. On the other hand, a dog only needs 25 mg per kg.

I would recommend Gordon Hutchings PMK formula (Pyro/Metol/Kodalk) and his
_The Book of Pyro_ available from the Photographers Formulary and other
sources.

Pyro negatives and prints have an increase in tonality, sharpness, acutance
and separations in the highlights. This is most noticeable in MF and LF
prints, but it is also usable with 35mm. Another advantage is the stain
tends to mask the grain. This may be a benefit for 35mm by itself.

You'll only know if it fit's into your needs if you try it. Plus-X and
Tri-X seem to work well with the advantage going to Tri-X. So don't let
those who have never tried Pyro steer you the wrong way.

Jim

"Jim Phelps" wrote in message ...
"Michael Scarpitti" wrote in message
om...
"KS" not.me@com wrote in message
news:WifTc.97257$M95.43550@pd7tw1no...
What are the advantages/differences between using say ABC Pyro as
opposed to
C-41 based B&W process film? I'm debating whether it is worth the
trouble to
use play around with pyro. Thx.

ABC is a very old formula, and I doubt you will have very good results
with modern films. Pyro is highly toxic and tricky to work with. It's
hard to control the staining, as stop baths and fixers will bleach it
out depending on various conditions.

Pyro today has very little to recommend it.

It's utterly amazing how little you really know Mike. The only thing you
got right was it's an old formula, but then again, so is Rodinal...

Right. Rodinal has been surpassed, but some people still use it in
ignorance of the fact that it has been superseded...

Pyro in all of it's formulations works fine with most modern emulsion films.
ABC pryo inclusive. Due to it's staining characteristics negatives
developed in Pyro print exceptionally well with variable contrast papers.


Bull****. The yellow stain acts as density with standard graded
papers, as they are blue-sensitive only. VC papers act completely
differently, and the yellow stain acts as a filter, lowering the
contrast and density in the highlights.

Using an alkaline fixer formula (TF-3 or TF-4), and a water bath between dev
and fix and staining can be controlled very well.

As I said, you have to watch stop baths and fixers carefully. Acid
stops and fixers can bleach out the stain.

A post fixer bath of an
alkaline solution enhances the stain formation. Since the developer is a
one shot process and alkaline in pH, most use the spent developer for this
bath. You do it with the lights on so you can control the staining.

While toxic, it's no more toxic than many normal household products, with
the exception that it's easily absorbed through the skin. So gloves and
dust mask are a necessity.

As I said, it's highly toxic stuff.

MSDS shows the LD 50 in rats to be 789 mg to 1
kg body weight. On the other hand, a dog only needs 25 mg per kg.

I would recommend Gordon Hutchings PMK formula (Pyro/Metol/Kodalk) and his
_The Book of Pyro_ available from the Photographers Formulary and other
sources.

Pyro negatives and prints have an increase in tonality, sharpness, acutance
and separations in the highlights. This is most noticeable in MF and LF
prints, but it is also usable with 35mm. Another advantage is the stain
tends to mask the grain. This may be a benefit for 35mm by itself.

You'll only know if it fit's into your needs if you try it. Plus-X and
Tri-X seem to work well with the advantage going to Tri-X. So don't let
those who have never tried Pyro steer you the wrong way.

Jim

Right. Rodinal has been surpassed, but some people still use it in
ignorance of the fact that it has been superseded...

By what? Rodinal has a quality and characterist of it's own. D-76 or
Microdol haven't replaced it for me...


Pyro in all of it's formulations works fine with most modern emulsion
films.
ABC pryo inclusive. Due to it's staining characteristics negatives
developed in Pyro print exceptionally well with variable contrast
papers.


Bull****. The yellow stain acts as density with standard graded
papers, as they are blue-sensitive only. VC papers act completely
differently, and the yellow stain acts as a filter, lowering the
contrast and density in the highlights.



OK Troll, Tell me where I stated what it does with VC papers? I only said
it works well with it. Not how. So where's the B.S.?

Gordon Hutcghings _The Book of Pyro_, page 47. "Printing With Variable
Contrast Papers", First sentence:

"Printing on variable contrast paper shows the greatest difference between
pyro negatives and conventional negatives. Stained pyro negatives provide
the photographer with the potential for a new level of consistent and
expressive printing. To acheive this, one must understand the relationship
between the silver and stain content in the negative and the color response
of the variable contrast paper.

During development, the negative gains silver density from shadow to
highlight. It is also gaining a proportional amount of image stain. This
yellow-green stain is not only printing density, but also a contrast
reducing color with variable contrast paper. As the negative image
increases silver and stain density, it is gaining a color mask that reduces
printing contrast. This stain reduces contrast proportionally but it is
most noticable in the print highlights.

This is a wonderful effect! It means the negative can be printed without
compressing or burning out the highlights..."

Now, waffleboy, I know this book wasn't written in 195-something by Kodak,
and therefore isn't holy writ, nor does it fit your personal style of
printing, with contrast controlled and highlights and all, but in my
experience with Plus-X (ISO 80) in PMK for 9 min at 20C it prints
wonderfully on Agfa MCP or MCC as well as Forte Polywarm. So, where's the
B.S. Mikey??? Back to my original statement...

Right. Rodinal has been surpassed, but some people still use it in
ignorance of the fact that it has been superseded...

By what? Rodinal has a quality and characterist of it's own. D-76 or
Microdol haven't replaced it for me...


Pyro in all of it's formulations works fine with most modern emulsion
films.
ABC pryo inclusive. Due to it's staining characteristics negatives
developed in Pyro print exceptionally well with variable contrast
papers.


Bull****. The yellow stain acts as density with standard graded
papers, as they are blue-sensitive only. VC papers act completely
differently, and the yellow stain acts as a filter, lowering the
contrast and density in the highlights.



OK Troll, Tell me where I stated what it does with VC papers? I only said
it works well with it. Not how. So where's the B.S.?

Gordon Hutcghings _The Book of Pyro_, page 47. "Printing With Variable
Contrast Papers", First sentence:

"Printing on variable contrast paper shows the greatest difference between
pyro negatives and conventional negatives. Stained pyro negatives provide
the photographer with the potential for a new level of consistent and
expressive printing. To acheive this, one must understand the relationship
between the silver and stain content in the negative and the color response
of the variable contrast paper.

During development, the negative gains silver density from shadow to
highlight. It is also gaining a proportional amount of image stain. This
yellow-green stain is not only printing density, but also a contrast
reducing color with variable contrast paper. As the negative image
increases silver and stain density, it is gaining a color mask that reduces
printing contrast. This stain reduces contrast proportionally but it is
most noticable in the print highlights.

This is a wonderful effect! It means the negative can be printed without
compressing or burning out the highlights..."

Now, waffleboy, I know this book wasn't written in 195-something by Kodak,
and therefore isn't holy writ, nor does it fit your personal style of
printing, with contrast controlled and highlights and all, but in my
experience with Plus-X (ISO 80) in PMK for 9 min at 20C it prints
wonderfully on Agfa MCP or MCC as well as Forte Polywarm. So, where's the
B.S. Mikey??? Back to my original statement...

While toxic, it's no more toxic than many normal household products,
with
the exception that it's easily absorbed through the skin. So gloves and
dust mask are a necessity.

As I said, it's highly toxic stuff.

MSDS shows the LD 50 in rats to be 789 mg to 1
kg body weight. On the other hand, a dog only needs 25 mg per kg.



Uhmmm, Mikey, Big Yellow list the LD-50 for rats on Dektol (powder) as
50-500 mg per kg. That makes Dektol more toxic... Do you consider Dektol
to be highly toxic??? Betcha never thought about it, did ya... Seems I
knew what I was talking about. By the way, what do you thing the LD-50 is
for bleach? Drano? 409? Comet?