|GG| Dpreview wants to cater to the simple people

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:20:13 -0600, "HEMI-Powered"
wrote:

John Navas added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

I would hope that the larger manufacturers could afford a
camera-proficient English speaker at least to polish the
manual, if not to write it in the first place. Oh, well!

There are some quite good 3rd party books around about the
various cameras - have you looked at those? Poor manuals
provide some income for the 3rd party author, so a benefit to
someone!

That's true of many software packages as well -- one by Adobe
comes to mind.

I'm sure that a big reason why SW developers no longer provide a
manual is that their old ones were so bad that nobody read them and
making good ones that people would actually use was too expensive.

That's not what my experience has been. The manuals that came with
WordPerfect, WordStar, Lotus, early versions of CorelDraw and other
programs were extremely well-written. I've kept and still use a Corel
manual that must have been a part one of the first versions of
CorelDraw because it shows illustrations of most of the common fonts.
It's book-type manual that's about 3/4" thick and printed on glossy
stock. It came in the box.



--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

HEMI-Powered wrote:
[]
And, being that I was the one to get my wife's Canon PowerShot
1100 set up and show her how to use it to best advantage, I can
tell you that it's manual is superior to my Rebel (!) probably
because they believed they were writing for newbies and not
people they thought are - or should be - experienced, but it is
still a tough read!

Cheers!

Jerry, I was thinking more of Internet book than shop books, but I see
that the author I had in mind seems to be Nikon and not Canon:

http://www.digitalsecrets.net/

at least from the front page. I do agree about some manuals - I want more
than:

"Snow mode" - "For use with snow".

Arrgh! Please tell me something like "This mode alters the exposure
algorithm so that scenes with lots of white content will not be
under-exposed..." or whatever.

I'm now on my second cell-phone (which we call mobile phones over here).
I hear you gasp - only his second? Well, yes, I have very little need,
but public phones are become fewer and fewer over here. The first was a
real struggle. I would have preferred a 300-page book, and the 30-page
manual was totally in inadequate. I discovered a few features by trial
and error - particularly what pressing the green "call" and read "hang up"
buttons did in certain circumstances. Eventually, I could do everything I
wanted. Now with my second phone, I only want to know the differences -
not to be "taught how to drive" again.

Cheers,
David

David J Taylor added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

HEMI-Powered wrote:
[]
And, being that I was the one to get my wife's Canon
PowerShot 1100 set up and show her how to use it to best
advantage, I can tell you that it's manual is superior to my
Rebel (!) probably because they believed they were writing
for newbies and not people they thought are - or should be -
experienced, but it is still a tough read!

Jerry, I was thinking more of Internet book than shop books,
but I see that the author I had in mind seems to be Nikon and
not Canon:

http://www.digitalsecrets.net/

at least from the front page. I do agree about some manuals -
I want more than:

Didn't know there was such a thing as an "Internet book", David.
Thanks.

"Snow mode" - "For use with snow".

That's about all I saw about Fill Flash, "you can use your built-
in flash to provide fill lighting to remove harsh shadows."
Great, but how?!

Arrgh! Please tell me something like "This mode alters the
exposure algorithm so that scenes with lots of white content
will not be under-exposed..." or whatever.

This is precisely the problem I have in general with manuals. I
seems eminently likely that the author isn't a photographer and
has never actually tried to use the features they are trying to
document, thus the chances of the book being terribly useful is
pretty low.

I'm now on my second cell-phone (which we call mobile phones
over here). I hear you gasp - only his second?

I'm just on my 2nd one. I use it as a phone and not a PDA or
camera although I am at least thinking of a multi-purpose "mobile
device." Those that have the features I might like are rather
large and from what I can casually tell from ads, I have to pay
for some services like Internet and GPS. Still mulling it over.

Well, yes, I
have very little need, but public phones are become fewer and
fewer over here. The first was a real struggle. I would have
preferred a 300-page book, and the 30-page manual was totally
in inadequate. I discovered a few features by trial and error
- particularly what pressing the green "call" and read "hang
up" buttons did in certain circumstances. Eventually, I could
do everything I wanted. Now with my second phone, I only want
to know the differences - not to be "taught how to drive"
again.

I had to literally go back to Verizon and beat on them to show me
something pretty simple - how to create phone book entries! The
book was virtually incomprehensible and had nothing at all about
how to insert special characters or capitals.

I feel your pain. I think we all decry not only the demise of
good user manuals for what we buy, but often any at all!

--
HP, aka Jerry

"How do you have patience for people who claim they love America,
but clearly can't stand Americans? – Sydney Ellen Wade to
President Andrew Shepherd in the movie "The American President

tony cooper added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

I'm sure that a big reason why SW developers no longer provide
a manual is that their old ones were so bad that nobody read
them and making good ones that people would actually use was
too expensive.

That's not what my experience has been. The manuals that came
with WordPerfect, WordStar, Lotus, early versions of CorelDraw
and other programs were extremely well-written. I've kept and
still use a Corel manual that must have been a part one of the
first versions of CorelDraw because it shows illustrations of
most of the common fonts. It's book-type manual that's about
3/4" thick and printed on glossy stock. It came in the box.

There's a pretty good paper manual with Paint Shop Pro 9 that I
still use but after that I think they dropped it. And, even when
there's an electronic manual on the install CD or on a web site, it
is little more than a recitation of the menus of the program. e.g.,
a couple years back I bought Raw Shooter Profession and printed the
80+ page manual that was on the CD. Useless! I could already follow
the basic GUI, what I was looking for was how to use Raw Shooter to
learn RAW!

--
HP, aka Jerry

"How do you have patience for people who claim they love America,
but clearly can't stand Americans? – Sydney Ellen Wade to President
Andrew Shepherd in the movie "The American President

HEMI-Powered wrote:
[]
I feel your pain. I think we all decry not only the demise of
good user manuals for what we buy, but often any at all!

When everyone is buying on cost, the user manual will probably be one of
the things to get chopped, or at least severely pruned back. Now, if
Leica made cell phones?

Cheers,
David

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:53:25 GMT, "David J Taylor"
wrote in
:

HEMI-Powered wrote:
[]
I feel your pain. I think we all decry not only the demise of
good user manuals for what we buy, but often any at all!

When everyone is buying on cost, the user manual will probably be one of
the things to get chopped, or at least severely pruned back. Now, if
Leica made cell phones?

None of us could afford them!

* GoldVish Le Million: $1,450,000
* Diamond Crypto: $1,300,000
* Bucheron for Vertu Cobra: $310,000
* VIPN Black Diamond: $300,000
* Vertu Signatu $81,000
* Diamond Iphone: $41,000
* Gresso Black Aura: $13,000
* Mobiado Professional: $2,200
* Porsche cell: only $1,600
* Prada cell: mere $780
--
Best regards,
John Navas
[PLEASE NOTE: Ads belong *only* in rec.photo.marketplace.digital, as per
http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/charter.htm http://rpdfaq.50megs.com/]

David J Taylor added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

HEMI-Powered wrote:
[]
I feel your pain. I think we all decry not only the demise of
good user manuals for what we buy, but often any at all!

When everyone is buying on cost, the user manual will probably
be one of the things to get chopped, or at least severely
pruned back. Now, if Leica made cell phones?

David, I'm sure you'll agree that in the earlier days of camera
engineers, computer programmers, and the like, the cost of
computers used in their designs far outweighed that of the people
but now it is just the opposite. So, everybody is not only striving
for lowest possible cost to attrack and retain customers but they
often don't even have the time with short development cycles to do
an adequate job on a user manual for people they don't perceive as
wanting it.

What's too bad is that ALL the people who build things that require
a Harvard degree to learn can't seem to figure out is that while
price is important, people will actually pay extra for superior
ergonomics that shorten the learning curve and may even pay extra
for a decent book - IF they can find one!

--
HP, aka Jerry

"How do you have patience for people who claim they love America,
but clearly can't stand Americans? – Sydney Ellen Wade to President
Andrew Shepherd in the movie "The American President

HEMI-Powered wrote:
[]
David, I'm sure you'll agree that in the earlier days of camera
engineers, computer programmers, and the like, the cost of
computers used in their designs far outweighed that of the people
but now it is just the opposite. So, everybody is not only striving
for lowest possible cost to attrack and retain customers but they
often don't even have the time with short development cycles to do
an adequate job on a user manual for people they don't perceive as
wanting it.

Can't argue with that. Great that there's a group here to help me figure
out the less-obvious stuff!

What's too bad is that ALL the people who build things that require
a Harvard degree to learn can't seem to figure out is that while
price is important, people will actually pay extra for superior
ergonomics that shorten the learning curve and may even pay extra
for a decent book - IF they can find one!

People pay more for quality (including manuals)? Nah! But wait, yes
there are customers out there who aren't looking to save every penny.
Unfortunately there just aren't enough of us.

But tell me this, Jerry: why is it that kids have the reputation of being
able to operate all these gadgets? The video recorder flashing 12:00 used
to be the classic example.

Cheers,
David

On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:37:48 GMT, "David J Taylor"
wrote in
:

But tell me this, Jerry: why is it that kids have the reputation of being
able to operate all these gadgets?

Unlike us they don't have better things to do with their time than read
arcane manuals?

The video recorder flashing 12:00 used
to be the classic example.

The clock can now be set automatically, which should have been done from
the beginning.
--
Best regards,
John
[Please Note: Ads belong *only* in rec.photo.marketplace.digital, as per
http://bobatkins.photo.net/info/charter.htm http://rpdfaq.50megs.com/]

David J Taylor added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

HEMI-Powered wrote:
[]
David, I'm sure you'll agree that in the earlier days of
camera engineers, computer programmers, and the like, the
cost of computers used in their designs far outweighed that
of the people but now it is just the opposite. So, everybody
is not only striving for lowest possible cost to attrack and
retain customers but they often don't even have the time with
short development cycles to do an adequate job on a user
manual for people they don't perceive as wanting it.

Can't argue with that. Great that there's a group here to
help me figure out the less-obvious stuff!

Yepper! I'm trying to convince a friend who's in the market for
two entirely different kinds of digital cameras to post his
separate requirements here, in the SLR NG, and also the one for
ZLR cameras. I have warned him, though, that emotions can
sometimes run high when people I might describe as purists tangle
with others like myself who don't necessarily need the absolute
best way to go about things. One thing you and I always find when
we're talking to each other is that while we often take differing
approaches to a given problem, we are able to see the other
fellows point-of-view.

What's too bad is that ALL the people who build things that
require a Harvard degree to learn can't seem to figure out is
that while price is important, people will actually pay extra
for superior ergonomics that shorten the learning curve and
may even pay extra for a decent book - IF they can find one!

People pay more for quality (including manuals)? Nah! But
wait, yes there are customers out there who aren't looking to
save every penny. Unfortunately there just aren't enough of
us.

I would take a cynical view also if all people ever did was
literally shop at Wal-Mart or Costco for absolute lowest price
regardless of whether they can get service or help, while others
like me MAY pay a premium to buy from a smaller store where there
are true experts to assist in the purchase decision and offer at
least limited after-sale support and advice.

Perhaps you're a bit cynical as I am at time and perhaps I am a
bit of a Pollyanna is suggesting that there ARE times when
throwing money at a problem would be desireable - IF we actually
could BUY a well-written manual.

But tell me this, Jerry: why is it that kids have the
reputation of being able to operate all these gadgets? The
video recorder flashing 12:00 used to be the classic example.

Let me offer at least a perspective, if not a direct answer,
David. Years ago before he passed away, my father had gotten more
and more "stick in the mud" to the point where he was a Luddite
wrt technology. I used to rag on him about that constantly. But
now as I am nearing Senior Citizen status I CAN understand why he
just didn't want the frustration of constantly learning new
things when the older way seemed to work just fine.

So, maybe the gift that the young folk have is a higher tolerance
for frustration and a boundless enthusiasm coupled with great
curiosity that enables them to just fiddle around with the
controls, menues, and the like very quickly so that it only SEEMS
like they have higher IQs. But, these very same kids lack the
experience that comes with age and make mistakes or lack
knowledge in a variety of areas where people like you and I may
excel.

An example of the latter: my daughter's hubby is a gadget
collector. He's got a decent EVF digital right now that he bought
mainly on it's specs and features. I don't know what brand or
model but it doesn't matter. In going over it and comparing notes
with my Rebel, he was a whiz at manipulating all the features at
lightning speed yet he had ZERO idea on how to apply any of it!
He is hardly a dummy, it's just that he hasn't been around
photography at all long enough to know what it is about and apply
his tech knowledge to a different kind of problem.

Don't know if the above is right, as I said, it's just a
perspective on what we're discussing here.

--
HP, aka Jerry

"How do you have patience for people who claim they love America,
but clearly can't stand Americans? – Sydney Ellen Wade to
President Andrew Shepherd in the movie "The American President