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Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint



 
 
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  #151  
Old September 12th 17, 06:46 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.sys.mac.apps,rec.photo.digital
Andre G. Isaak
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Posts: 18
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

In article ,
Chaya Eve wrote:

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 13:11:05 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

I am a Mac user, I am not going to label myself ´expert¡, but since you
are looking for a sans serif font which is common to Mac, and Win
platforms,
I have Microsoft Sans Serif Regular on this Mac, and I suspect it will be
found on Win machines. As a note, I have no MS software installed on this
Mac.
https://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/font.aspx?FMID=1599
https://catalog.monotype.com/font/mi...osoft-sans-ser
if/regular


BTW: This is what it looks like on my Mac:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozi9gqpmq945db9/screenshot_170.png


Thanks for running that test.

A lot of good information came out of this thread, which I put into the
project plan that I handed in today to the Graphics Arts teacher for
review.

I think we all learned something new but one thing that is for certain is
that nobody is ever going to adequately tests a highway sign font sitting
at a computer screen, hence only a well-tested font can even be considered.

The most well tested USA font is, of course, Highway Gothic.
The most well tested European font appears to be DIN 1451.


Note that of these, only DIN is available commercially. While there are
a number of digital fonts called 'Highway Gothic', none of them are the
actual font used by the FHWA. The closest commercially available
equivalent is Interstate FB.

The next-most-well tested font in the USA is Clearview.


Clearview is no longer recommended by the FHWA, though it is in actual
use in many states.

And a great look-alike font is Roadgeek.

Luckily some versions of the Mac come with DIN and some versions of Windows
come with Bahnschrift (both of which are DIN 1451 look-alike fonts), so
that's the next choice.

That is the finite (known) list of fonts that meet the road-sign spec.

All those fonts are tested under real-world conditions for halation,
night-time and speed legibility (especially when tight interstices are
involved), cutout-integrity, removal of tiny notches in joints of the
letterforms, negative spacing compactness (affecting legibility of signs in
negative-contrast color orientations), common symbols, etc., all resulting
in an increase in accuracy, viewing distance, and reaction time.

Given that extensive testing, I would state that none of us is ever going
to find a better font while just sitting at our computers. It's just not
feasible no matter how "good looking" the font appears to be.

So the only font choices that are feasible are, in this order:
* USA Highway Gothic (not free, but available free so maybe it is free)
* USA Clearview (not free)
* Germany DIN 1451 (maybe free)
* USA Roadgeek (definitely free)
* Germany Bahnschrift & DIN (definitely free)


I think your definition of 'free' needs work. Bahnschrift and DIN are
bundled with Windows and macOS respectively. They are, however,
definitely not free.

Andre

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail service.
  #152  
Old September 12th 17, 07:00 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.sys.mac.apps,rec.photo.digital
Chaya Eve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 23:46:55 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
wrote:

So the only font choices that are feasible are, in this order:
* USA Highway Gothic (not free, but available free so maybe it is free)
* USA Clearview (not free)
* Germany DIN 1451 (maybe free)
* USA Roadgeek (definitely free)
* Germany Bahnschrift & DIN (definitely free)


I think your definition of 'free' needs work. Bahnschrift and DIN are
bundled with Windows and macOS respectively. They are, however,
definitely not free.


I guess it depends on what is meant by free, because electricity to run a
computer isn't free either, so even freeware requires electricity to run.

Nonetheless, if we assume that Highway Gothic isn't free, then we're back
to Roadgeek (which is where we started) for the only font that works on
both platforms that is definitely free.

Sigh.
  #153  
Old September 12th 17, 08:13 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Your Name[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On 2017-09-11 20:25:51 +0000, Andre G. Isaak said:
In article ,
Your Name wrote:
On 2017-09-12 00:31:19 +0000, Chaya Eve said:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 12:20:39 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
wrote:

I pointed out already that DIN *is* included with Macs.

Thanks for clarifying that a DIN font is included native with the Mac.
You're the only Mac expert here who knew that. Even the Windows experts
didn't know that a DIN 1451 compatible font exists on Windows (named
Barnshrift) until you mentioned the DIN compatible font on the Mac.

Since the name may make all the difference in compatibility, do you
know the name of that DIN 1451 compatible font on the Mac?


There is no "DIN" font installed by default on the Mac. You can
download it and it may be installed by some third-party applications.

There are no doubt lots of fonts that are close enough to be lookalikes.


I just double checked. DIN is definitely installed in /Library/Fonts.

I verified this against the Sierra and Yosemite installers. It is
present in both.


It is in my Sierra folder as well, but it's not a standard Mac OS X font.

It doesn't show up in any Mac apps such as Font Book, Pages, InDesign,
etc. (unless itt's listed under some name other then "DIN"). The only
apps it is accessible in is Microsoft Office apps, so it's likely it
was installed by Office and is licensed only for use in those.


  #154  
Old September 12th 17, 09:04 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.sys.mac.apps,rec.photo.digital
Andre G. Isaak
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

In article ,
Chaya Eve wrote:

On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 23:46:55 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
wrote:

So the only font choices that are feasible are, in this order:
* USA Highway Gothic (not free, but available free so maybe it is free)
* USA Clearview (not free)
* Germany DIN 1451 (maybe free)
* USA Roadgeek (definitely free)
* Germany Bahnschrift & DIN (definitely free)


I think your definition of 'free' needs work. Bahnschrift and DIN are
bundled with Windows and macOS respectively. They are, however,
definitely not free.


I guess it depends on what is meant by free, because electricity to run a
computer isn't free either, so even freeware requires electricity to run.


I think you misunderstood my point -- I'm pointing out that it's not a
good idea to place bundled fonts in the same category as freeware fonts.
The latter can generally be redistributed, whereas the former cannot be.

Andre

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail service.
  #155  
Old September 12th 17, 09:28 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Andre G. Isaak
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

In article ,
Your Name wrote:

On 2017-09-11 20:25:51 +0000, Andre G. Isaak said:
In article ,
Your Name wrote:
On 2017-09-12 00:31:19 +0000, Chaya Eve said:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 12:20:39 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
wrote:

I pointed out already that DIN *is* included with Macs.

Thanks for clarifying that a DIN font is included native with the Mac.
You're the only Mac expert here who knew that. Even the Windows experts
didn't know that a DIN 1451 compatible font exists on Windows (named
Barnshrift) until you mentioned the DIN compatible font on the Mac.

Since the name may make all the difference in compatibility, do you
know the name of that DIN 1451 compatible font on the Mac?

There is no "DIN" font installed by default on the Mac. You can
download it and it may be installed by some third-party applications.

There are no doubt lots of fonts that are close enough to be lookalikes.


I just double checked. DIN is definitely installed in /Library/Fonts.

I verified this against the Sierra and Yosemite installers. It is
present in both.


It is in my Sierra folder as well, but it's not a standard Mac OS X font.


I've verified that it is installed by Sierra.

However, this font has fallen victim to a well-known apple bug which I
forgot that I'd already fixed on my system.

If you find a font in fonts folder which doesn't show up in your
applications, try renaming the file. That should fix it.

(this bug is tied to system integrity protection -- if there is any
discrepancy between a font and the information contained in the .ATSD
file with the same name, the system will assume the font has been
damaged and will prevent it from loading. In a few cases apple has
updated their fonts but left an old .ATSD file in place. Renaming the
font file will fix this)

Andre

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail service.
  #156  
Old September 12th 17, 09:36 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Andre G. Isaak
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

In article

,

"Andre G. Isaak" wrote:

In article ,
Your Name wrote:

On 2017-09-11 20:25:51 +0000, Andre G. Isaak said:
In article ,
Your Name wrote:
On 2017-09-12 00:31:19 +0000, Chaya Eve said:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 12:20:39 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"

wrote:

I pointed out already that DIN *is* included with Macs.

Thanks for clarifying that a DIN font is included native with the Mac.
You're the only Mac expert here who knew that. Even the Windows experts
didn't know that a DIN 1451 compatible font exists on Windows (named
Barnshrift) until you mentioned the DIN compatible font on the Mac.

Since the name may make all the difference in compatibility, do you
know the name of that DIN 1451 compatible font on the Mac?

There is no "DIN" font installed by default on the Mac. You can
download it and it may be installed by some third-party applications.

There are no doubt lots of fonts that are close enough to be lookalikes.

I just double checked. DIN is definitely installed in /Library/Fonts.
C
I verified this against the Sierra and Yosemite installers. It is
present in both.


It is in my Sierra folder as well, but it's not a standard Mac OS X font.


I've verified that it is installed by Sierra.

However, this font has fallen victim to a well-known apple bug which I
forgot that I'd already fixed on my system.

If you find a font in fonts folder which doesn't show up in your
applications, try renaming the file. That should fix it.

(this bug is tied to system integrity protection -- if there is any
discrepancy between a font and the information contained in the .ATSD
file with the same name, the system will assume the font has been
damaged and will prevent it from loading. In a few cases apple has
updated their fonts but left an old .ATSD file in place. Renaming the
font file will fix this)


P.S. other fonts which have fallen victim to this bug at various times
have included Athelas, Charter, Marion, Seravek, and SuperClarendon.
Usually it gets fixed with the next update but not always.

(AFAIK the .ATSD files serve no actual purpose other than to
differentiate between apple and 3rd party fonts)

Andre

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail service.
  #157  
Old September 12th 17, 12:18 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
David Empson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

Andre G. Isaak wrote:

In article ,
Your Name wrote:

On 2017-09-12 00:31:19 +0000, Chaya Eve said:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 12:20:39 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
wrote:

I pointed out already that DIN *is* included with Macs.

Thanks for clarifying that a DIN font is included native with the Mac.
You're the only Mac expert here who knew that. Even the Windows experts
didn't know that a DIN 1451 compatible font exists on Windows (named
Barnshrift) until you mentioned the DIN compatible font on the Mac.

Since the name may make all the difference in compatibility, do you
know the name of that DIN 1451 compatible font on the Mac?


There is no "DIN" font installed by default on the Mac. You can
download it and it may be installed by some third-party applications.

There are no doubt lots of fonts that are close enough to be lookalikes.


I just double checked. DIN is definitely installed in /Library/Fonts.

I verified this against the Sierra and Yosemite installers. It is
present in both.


That is correct, but the font cannot be selected by the user in recent
OS versions: DIN Alternate Bold and DIN Condensed Bold don't show up in
Font Book, nor in font selection menus in application. They also don't
show up if attempting to install the same files as a user font.

Apple's document on fonts included in Sierra doesn't mention those
fonts:

https://support.apple.com/HT206872

but they were in the corresponding document for Mavericks:

https://support.apple.com/HT201375

I couldn't find corresponding documents for Yosemite and El Capitan (nor
does Wikipedia have links for those versions).

Given the list of "Fonts available for document support in macOS Sierra"
in the first document, I suspect DIN Alternate Bold and DIN Condensed
Bold are supposed to be on that list but were accidentally omitted.

Testing older OS versions, those two fonts only appear in Font Book for
OS X 10.9 Mavericks and OS X 10.10 Yosemite. They are missing from Font
Book (and applications) for OS X 10.11 El Capitan and macOS 10.12
Sierra, despite the font files being present in /Library/Fonts.

Using TextEdit as an example, I was able to save a document using those
fonts in Yosemite then open it in Sierra, where they display correctly.
With that document open, those fonts are able to be selected from the
the recent list at the top of the font popup menu in the TextEdit
toolbar. They still don't appear in the Show Fonts floating window and
they disappear if that document is closed then TextEdit is quit and
relaunched.

This is consisent with those fonts being retained for use in existing
documents when referenced by name, but not being available for use in
new documents, as described in the Sierra support document for a long
list of other fonts.

The DIN font files are not identical between Yosemite and Sierra, but
the Yosemite version of the font also doesn't show up if installed as a
user font in Sierra. Recent OS X versions must have a master list of
fonts previously supplied by Apple which are no longer available for
selection.

If someone wanted to use that font in new documents, they would probably
need to get a separately licensed copy from Linotype. (I don't know what
would be involved to get around the OS blocking the availability of a
font with that name, unless that mechanism is tied to Apple-supplied
font files.)

--
David Empson

  #158  
Old September 12th 17, 01:25 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Andre G. Isaak
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

In article ,
(David Empson) wrote:

Andre G. Isaak wrote:

In article ,
Your Name wrote:

On 2017-09-12 00:31:19 +0000, Chaya Eve said:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 12:20:39 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"

wrote:

I pointed out already that DIN *is* included with Macs.

Thanks for clarifying that a DIN font is included native with the Mac.
You're the only Mac expert here who knew that. Even the Windows experts
didn't know that a DIN 1451 compatible font exists on Windows (named
Barnshrift) until you mentioned the DIN compatible font on the Mac.

Since the name may make all the difference in compatibility, do you
know the name of that DIN 1451 compatible font on the Mac?

There is no "DIN" font installed by default on the Mac. You can
download it and it may be installed by some third-party applications.

There are no doubt lots of fonts that are close enough to be lookalikes.


I just double checked. DIN is definitely installed in /Library/Fonts.

I verified this against the Sierra and Yosemite installers. It is
present in both.


That is correct, but the font cannot be selected by the user in recent
OS versions: DIN Alternate Bold and DIN Condensed Bold don't show up in
Font Book, nor in font selection menus in application. They also don't
show up if attempting to install the same files as a user font.


This is a known bug. Simply rename the font files and they will work.


This is consisent with those fonts being retained for use in existing
documents when referenced by name, but not being available for use in
new documents, as described in the Sierra support document for a long
list of other fonts.


Compatibility fonts are stored in /Library/Application
Support/Apple/Fonts/ whereas DIN is installed in /Library/Fonts/

Andre

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail service.
  #159  
Old September 12th 17, 01:52 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.sys.mac.apps,rec.photo.digital
Chaya Eve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 02:04:56 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
wrote:

I think you misunderstood my point -- I'm pointing out that it's not a
good idea to place bundled fonts in the same category as freeware fonts.
The latter can generally be redistributed, whereas the former cannot be.


Thanks for clarifying that the bundled fonts might not be legally
distributable.

I think the problem with bundled fonts is even worse, in that the
distribution would have to be by us (particularly for the Mac DIN bundled
fonts) rather than by a simple link.

That is, there are three scenarios:
* If we pick a free font, such as Roadgeek, we can point Mac uses to the
download site for that font and we can embed the font into the PowerPoint
document for Windows users.

* If we pick a Windows bundled font, such as Bahnschrift, we can't point
the Mac users to the download site and the Mac users can't "see" the
embedded font in the PowerPoint document - so effectively we'd have to
somehow distribute the font with the document as a separate file.

* If we pick a Mac bundled font, such as DIN, we can't point the Windows
users to that download site, and the Mac can't embed the font into the
PowerPoint document, so, again, effectively, we'd have to somehow
distribute the font with the document as a separate file.

Hence, the Mac & Windows native fonts are useless, effectively, for our
purposes as far as I can see.
  #160  
Old September 12th 17, 01:56 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,alt.comp.os.windows-10,rec.photo.digital
Chaya Eve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default Technical & legal background using copyrighted fonts in custom road signs in PowerPoint

On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 02:28:20 -0600, "Andre G. Isaak"
wrote:

If you find a font in fonts folder which doesn't show up in your
applications, try renaming the file. That should fix it.


This may be a crazy idea, but if we rename the DIN font to "Bahnschrift" on
the Mac, will the Mac then be able to use the DIN font in place of the
Bahnschrift font if the Mac edits a PowerPoint that came from Windows that
had the Windows Bahnschrift font embedded in it?
 




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