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Jobo atl3



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 30th 10, 10:20 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Joel Nepper
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Posts: 1
Default Jobo atl3

Hello, i am looking for an jobo ATL3 manual.
Can somebody help me ?

Thanks,

Joe.
  #2  
Old August 4th 10, 10:02 PM
Darkroom User Darkroom User is offline
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First recorded activity by PhotoBanter: Aug 2010
Posts: 27
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Nepper View Post
Hello, i am looking for an jobo ATL3 manual.
Can somebody help me ?

Thanks,

Joe.
I think there is a site called Butkus (or something similar) which has instruction manuals on line which can be down loaded.
  #3  
Old August 5th 10, 07:07 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
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Posts: 751
Default Pyro Developers Question.


"Darkroom User"
wrote in message
news

Is there any advantage or quality difference to using a
pyro developer
instead of a normal developer such as D-76 or Xtol?
Developers like Pyrocat-HD, WD2D and PMK get mentioned a
lot on the
internet photo sites.




--
Darkroom User


Boy, have you opened a can of worms he-) Pyro was
the first organic developer discovered and applied c.1860.
Previous developers were inorganic and nowhere near as
efficient. Pyro remained a favorite for the next fifty years
but was eventually supplanted by developers employing a
combination of Metol (AKA Kodak Elon and a bunch of other
names) and hydroquinone. These two in combination can make a
very wide varity of developers.
Pyro, in the right sort of formula produces a stain
image along with the silver one. The stain image is usually
a yellow or greenish brown. It increases the effective
printing density when the printing material is sensitive
only to blue light. Pyro became popular when it was
discovered that the stain image would act as a contrast mask
when films were printed on variable contrast paper, tending
to lower the contrast of the highlights. This was considered
desirable because some modern fils, tabular grain ones like
Kodak T-max for instance, can produce extremely high maximum
densities. Because the traditional Pyro developers tended to
be somewhat grainy some more modern ones were devised. PMK
in particular has become popular. However there may be
problems with it, for one thing the books on photographic
chemistry warn that borax is not compatible with Pyro and
should not be used in Pyro developers. PMK uses "Kodalk",
Kodak's trade name for sodium tetraborate, a borax compound.
I've seen several explanations of why this is OK in this
particular formula.
Traditional Pyro developers are mixed from two or three
stock solutions. This is because the most Pyro developers
are vulnerable to oxidation from the air and are not long
lived when mixed. When Pyro was the principle developing
agent a great deal of work was put into devising
_non-staining_ formulas. This is because the effect of the
stain on printing density is not easily predictable and it
was found in motion picture practice that obtaining
consistent results was difficult. When D-76 was introduced
in 1926 it very rapidly displaced all other developers for
motion picture negative processing. This was partly because
it produced fine grain negatives but also because it was
more consistent and controlable than previously used
developers.
Pyro has a couple of advantages especially for tray use:
while it is itself rapidly oxidized it does not produce
aerial fog, secondly, its a fairly good desensitizer so is
advantageous when developing by inspection.
The short life was addressed in some two part forumulas
which included Metol. In these developers the Metol is
present mainly to preserve the Pyro although it also
functions as a developing agent. Kodak D-7 is an example.
The three part developer, often called ABC developer,
evolved over the years to the point where the published
formulas were all the same. Kodak D-1 is a classical ABC
developer. These are still quite satisfactory but are
probably a bit grainy for 35mm film.
Some early formulas used acetone as an intermediate for
generating carbonate (actually hydroxide) in solution.
Because the acetone is volitile these developers tend to be
inconsistent and are the main reason that Pyro got the
reputation for being inconsistent. The later formulas using
sodium carbonate are much more satisfactory but one still
has the problem of determining actual printing density and
contrast due to the stain image.
BTW, the stain is composed of a humic acid pigment, not
a dye, and is probably more permanent than the silver image.
Pyro will also work as a warm tone print developer but the
color may not always be a desirable one.
I collected a bunch of Pyro formulas which someone
kindly posted to their web site. It appears as a PDF at:
http://www.nonmonotonic.net/Photochemistry/Richard%20Knoppow/Pyro_Developers.pdf
There are some good articles on Pyro developers on the
web:
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html
http://www.jackspcs.com/pmk.htm

A Google search for Pyro Film Developers will find lots
more.


--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #4  
Old August 7th 10, 06:27 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Jean-David Beyer
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Posts: 247
Default Pyro Developers Question.

IanG wrote (in part):
Yes there can be advantages and an increase in quality how much depends
on the way you work and the developer you choose.

Pyrocat HD gives finer grain, better sharpness and more tonality than
D76,


What does "more tonality" mean?

I cannot believe it means a greater dynamic range, because films, with
very few exceptions these days, have way more dynamic range than can be
printed onto photographic papers.

While I no longer use D-76, it is certainly a fine-enough grain
developer for 4x5 negatives at sizes up to 16x20, I would say. And it is
certainly well capable of getting a density of 2.0 or greater from the
films with which I am familiar.

Now it may well produce a slightly different curve shape, though that is
mostly determined by the design of the film. And some people obviously
like different curve shapes from others. I prefer short toe curve shape,
where most people seem to prefer a longer toe than I do. The only
disadvantage of short toe, in my opinion, is that if you underexpose, it
is just not there. So if you pop away on street corners in rapidly
changing conditions, Garry Winogrand style, you may prefer a longer toe
than I do. I believe he mostly used Tri-X in his Leicas.

although originally designed for LF negatives it's also used for
35mm &120 negatives.



--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 13:05:01 up 13 days, 15:57, 4 users, load average: 4.42, 4.57, 4.56
  #5  
Old August 7th 10, 10:16 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
[email protected]
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Posts: 5
Default Pyro Developers Question.

I've settled on PyroCat-MC as my main developer, especially with
medium format and this combo is very nice with HP5+. I've been a
darkroom rat for 40+ years and always maintained some "go-to"
combinations when things needed to be predictable and absolutely give
usable results. I also played with many films and developers because
it kept my interest and imagination stirred up. As I've gotten older
and tinker less, I've appreciated the PyroCat variants because of 3
primary reasons:

1. Superb highlight control.... It virtually eliminates clipping and
allows me to have great shadow detail and not fear blown highlights.
Most films behave predictably at 1/2 box speed as a great starting
point and exhibit this basic behavior.

2. Great skin tones. People pictures just seem to print themselves
with a beautiful tone spread that gives a 3D effect and depth to
faces. Its sharpness and edge effects make eyelashes pop but somehow
is also kind to crows' feet, etc.

3. It solved most of my scanning headaches. The tonal range depicted
and smooth grain characteristics are especially compatible with
scanner's rendition with very little of that grain scatter appearance.
The edge effects aid in adding an apparent sharpness that translates
well in the digital process.

Over the years, I've had good success and a good understanding of most
of Ilford's films, Fuji and many of Kodak's. I started with D-76 and
still respect it as a great soup that one could happily use forever
and give up very little to anything else in general duties. FG-7 was
a favorite for many years and I also enjoyed DDX following that. XTOL
and the new TMY-2 seem made for each other, too. I only mention these
details so you don't think I'm a Pyro fanatic who's been to the
mountaintop!

The process is also easy and streamlined... I use a 1 minute initial
slow inversions cycle, followed by 1 gentle inversion per minute
(seems to add a bit of edge effect without getting exaggerated).
Follow with a double water rinse (no stop bath) and then fixing in
TF-4. Following washing and a drop or 2 of wetting agents, they also
seem to sheet off and dry spot free, too. Some films show some
emulsion expansion (sort of a frosty look with bright back light) and
some show an etching/raised effect on the emulsion side but they seem
to settle down after drying.

I wish someone would have promoted giving it a try earlier in my
darkroom escapades. I would encourage giving it a shot. A neutral or
alkaline fixer can aid in keeping the stain effect consistent with
Pyro (they're effective and pleasant to use anyway).

  #6  
Old August 9th 10, 05:32 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Nicholas O. Lindan
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Posts: 1,227
Default Pyro Developers Question.

"Jean-David Beyer" wrote

What does "more tonality" mean?


Nothing.

"Tonality" as applied to photography and as
near as I can tell means the writer, using
developer X and film Y, made some
photos he liked .

"More Tonality" means he "more liked" his
photos.

"Tonality" is a word that should be removed
from the language. We don't have "colorality"
or "tastality" and have never missed them.

I think. I hope. Better check.

Oh dear, "tastality" comes up with 14 hits,
"colorality" 47. Thankfully used in a
mocking context ...

I think we can say that negatives developed
in Pyro have more "Pyrality" and leave it
at that.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/da-main.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com


  #7  
Old August 9th 10, 08:26 AM
Darkroom User Darkroom User is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by PhotoBanter: Aug 2010
Posts: 27
Default

Hi there,

I asked this question about pyro developers on the photobanter website in a separate thread. For some reason, it seems to have got merged with the thread about a Jobo atl3.
I am not sure how that happened (sorry). This is where I asked about pyro.
http://www.photobanter.com/showthread.php?t=114087



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean-David Beyer View Post
IanG wrote (in part):
Yes there can be advantages and an increase in quality how much depends
on the way you work and the developer you choose.

Pyrocat HD gives finer grain, better sharpness and more tonality than
D76,


What does "more tonality" mean?

I cannot believe it means a greater dynamic range, because films, with
very few exceptions these days, have way more dynamic range than can be
printed onto photographic papers.



--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 13:05:01 up 13 days, 15:57, 4 users, load average: 4.42, 4.57, 4.56
  #8  
Old August 10th 10, 05:10 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default Pyro Developers Question.


"Darkroom User"
wrote in message
news

IanG;886420 Wrote:

PYROCAT HD GIVES FINER GRAIN, BETTER SHARPNESS AND MORE
TONALITY THAN
D76, ALTHOUGH ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR LF NEGATIVES IT'S
ALSO USED FOR
35MM &120 NEGATIVES.

In addition the negatives are extremely easy to print
from, with
excellent highlights and shadow detail.

It's also a better developer for making negatives for Alt
processes.

Ian

If it gives finer grain as well as better sharpness than
D76, then it
must be good.
Will I actually see these differences with FP4 Plus and
T-Max 400?
What dilution and times for the small Paterson-tanks?




--
Darkroom User

Well, finer grain is open to the question of how that
was determined. Lots of developers yield finer grain than
D-76, some modern ones, notably Xtol, also deliver somewhat
higher speed but most fine grain developers loose some
speed.
Pyrochatichin, which is related to pyrogallic acid but
is a different chemical can be used in developers which have
strong edge/border effects. This gives the illusion of
sharpness. There is another effect of certain developers
containing pyro and its relatives, that is that it tans the
gelatin image wise. The variation of index of refraction
after development can lead to a similar kind of edge effect
which is visualized as "acutance" or the impression of
sharpness. Note that "acutance" is a Kodak term for this
illusion. High acutance films do not, in general, increase
resolution, in fact they may reduce it. However, where one
is working with small negatives acutance effects will
partially compensate for the lack of sharpness in the
lenses. Note also that border/edge effects, and hense
acutance, is of a fixed scale so that its effect is
dependant on the magnification of the image on viewing. It
can have a quite significant effect on 35mm negatives but
will be virtually invisible on a 4x5.
Graininess also gives the illusion of sharpness. A
somewhat blurry image when overlayed with a sharp grain
pattern will appear to be sharp, at least at first.



--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #9  
Old August 10th 10, 10:54 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
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Posts: 751
Default Pyro Developers Question.


"Lew" wrote in message
...
What about film speed? Are there any fine grain, staining
developers
mixed with phenodone, for example, to give the speed
increase we
experience with xtol?


I don't know. Imagewise staining is produced by some
phenol type developers as is imagewise tanning. Pyrogallic
acid and Pyrochatichin (there are other spellings) are
formost among the staining developers but hydroquinone can
cause imagewise tanning without the staining. Pyro has been
mixed with other developing agents, particularly Metol, but
that was done beause the two tend to preserve each other and
extend the life of the developer. Curiously much of the
reseach done on Pyro developers before they were pretty much
supplanted by M-H types was to devise non-staining
developers. The reason is that the stain image affects the
printing density in a way that varies with the spectrum of
the printing illumination and with the spectral sensitivity
of the printing material, plus it can be difficult to
measure because the densitometer used must match the
spectral sensitivity of the printing material. All is much
easier when the image is neutral. You can get some idea of
the increase in effective density for blue-sensitive
materials by looking at the negative though a blue filter.
Its also possible to bleach out the silver image which
leaves only the stain image. That is one way of determining
the effectiveness of a developer in forming a stain image.
The effect desired by most workers using current
materials is the self-masking effect of the stain image when
used with variable contrast materials. It tends to lower the
contrast of the highlights flattening out the very high
contrast produced by some modern films. In effect it creates
a shoulder on the film characteristic. Might or might not be
desirable and may not be much of an effect on some material.
Grain is affected by many variables: the activity of
the developer is one, generally less active developers are
less grainy; another factor is the pH of the developer,
higher pH (more alkaline) tends to produce coarser grain;
the presense of halide solvents affects grain somewhat but
not for the reasons popularly supposed. The solvent, sulfite
in most developrs, does not "etch away the grains" but
rather affects the way the crystals grow as they are
developed. Up to a certain point the presense of a solvent
will increase film speed because it makes more development
centers available to the developer. This is one reason that
D-76 has become the reference standard for film speed. When
more solvent is present, or a stronger solvent such as
sodium thiocyanate, is used the film speed goes back down
because the solvent can destroy some of the latent image
centers.
The total range of speed variation from "normal" type
developers is about 3/4 stop more to 3/4 stop less than
D-76. Some Phenidone developers, notably Xtol, T-Max RS,
Microphen, as examples, increase speed about 3/4 stop. Some
very fine grain developers such as Perceptol and Microdol-X
decrease it about 3/4 stop. About the only developers which
loose more speed than this are the old fashioned
paraphenylenediamine super fine gain developers. A pure PPD
developer (with no other agent added) can loose as much as 5
stops! These developers can also produce severe dichroic fog
on modern films and do not, for the most part, produce any
finer grain than Perceptol or Microdol-X
In general, film speed and fine grain are not
compatible. Probably the best compromise is Xtol which
yields slightly finer grain and slightly higher speed than
D-76 along with good sharpness and good tonal rendition.
Whatever reliability problems it had in the past seem to
have been cured.

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #10  
Old August 11th 10, 05:52 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Thor Lancelot Simon
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Posts: 163
Default Pyro Developers Question.

In article ,
Darkroom User wrote:

IanG;886420 Wrote:

PYROCAT HD GIVES FINER GRAIN, BETTER SHARPNESS AND MORE TONALITY THAN
D76, ALTHOUGH ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR LF NEGATIVES IT'S ALSO USED FOR
35MM &120 NEGATIVES.


If it gives finer grain as well as better sharpness than D76, then it
must be good.


It also gives world peace and free beer. You can be sure it is excellent.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon
"All of my opinions are consistent, but I cannot present them all
at once." -Jean-Jacques Rousseau, On The Social Contract
 




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