This is relevant - "Why solid-state disks are winning the argument".

On 2014-12-01 16:26:15 +0000, Whisky-dave said:

On Monday, 1 December 2014 15:54:23 UTC, Savageduck wrote:
On 2014-12-01 13:53:27 +0000, Whisky-dave said:

On Friday, 28 November 2014 17:24:55 UTC, Savageduck wrote:
On 2014-11-28 17:05:00 +0000, Whisky-dave said
:

On Friday, 28 November 2014 16:54:22 UTC, Savageduck wrote:
On 2014-11-28 13:47:50 +0000, Whisky-dave said:

Never mind. I am not going to beat myself in the head over your luddite
brother.

Never thought you'd realise that.

Why do you think I took the method I did.

There was a method in there somewhere?

Yes. if those apps worked when I used them then the only possible
reason for them not working for my brother would be if tehy weren;t
installed by him.
Another advantage is of my method is that he didn;t have to think what app
was I using to do that or what was the app called before david wiped
all the apps off the ipad for me. he has alrady gone through quite a
number of gaming apps to see which he wanted and kept the ones he liked.
So the one;s he liked were still on teh ipad why should I wipe then ?

Because, freeware or payware, he doesn't own them, an has no inherent
right to use them.

FFS he CAN'T USE them because they are in my name.
Why is the so difficult for you to understand ?

I understand that. What I don't understand is why you didn't give him a
clean iPad, devoid of any evidence of previous owner/users, and why you
insisted on giving him one cluttered with your useless (to him) stuff.

If he liked them he needs to install, or buy his own
copies. That is the right thing to do. All of a sudden you are sounding

like a certain individual from the Netherlands, who holds to a
philosophy most of us disagree with.

**** off idiot.

If the shoe fits...

BTW: Just how did you think I should **** off?

They are taking up space on what is supposed to be his iPad, not yours.

Retaining them for his use on his iPad is a violation of the Apple
EULA.

NO it is NOT because he can NOT use them.

Then he should take the initiative and delete them himself. It is his
iPad to do whatever he chooses with it isn't it?

You should have presented him with an iPad cleaned of any evidence
that either you, or your father once owned it, so he could go about
doing his own thing with it.

Why ?

Because it is stupid not to.

He needs to climb up his own
learning curve, and discover what will be useful and entertaining for
him.

With millions of apps that's quite a climb only the stupid would allow such
a climb.

There is a point to education you know.

There is no point in leaving apps he doesn't have direct access to
on HIS iPad,

Yes there is because he will remmeber he used them previously so will
try to access them again.
My plan is very much like expired shareware. he was using it last week and
if he wants to use it again he'll have to pay for it, what wrong with that
?

It's already worked the way I expected. He phoned me up sunday saying
he couldn't use flight checker.

Ypoiu see if it had been wiped as you suggest he most vlilkely would
have forgotten about it OR phoned me up to ask what was that app that
told me what aircraft was flying above. But as the app that was used
isa still on the ipad he didn;t need to phone me to find it's name. And
when he launched it
he couldn;t use it, so he wanted to know how he could use it. I
explained that as the ipad is NOW his he'll have to purchase it himself
(just like he did his car) and it's about 1.99 for the full version.

unless you plan to be some sort of control freak.

Deleting the software off his ipad and telling him he can't use it isn;t be
ing a control freak is it. You're the one that sayds I must wipe the ipad I
don't have to do anything, other than delete myself as a user/owner.

Of course I was using him as a experiment, I wanted to know what would
happen if I lost my ipad and delete myself as the user (remotely) NOW I
know.

Kick him out of the nest,
He';s in teh nest I'm out ofthe nest.

Then stop trying to be a mother hen.

and if he wants some help, let him ask for
it.

That's the way it usually works, yes well done.

There is nothing more intrusive than an actual big brother who
insists he knows what is best for little brother. (That is true
regardless of which way the age difference between the two of you
works.)

What's worse is letting someone struggle without helping them or by
delebratly letting them take the wrong path as you would do.

Actually I would try to help him. You seem to have a need for him to
always have you available as some sort of crutch.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

you are, but when you give an ipad to someone else, it's no longer
yours anymore.

Where is that stated ?
The ipad was STILL in my name with my account details on it, still
registar
ed with Apple as my property.

So, it comes down to this, you haven't actually given him your iPad,
you might at best say you are letting him borrow it.

Why is this so difficult ?

it's not difficult at all. a couple of taps and it's done.

Until he sets it up as a new iPad,

He hasn't a new iPad he has his my fathers old iPad.

doesn't matter. once it's reset, it's no different than a new ipad as
far as the configuration goes.

with his own Apple ID,

For about a week or so.

and it is
cleaned of any apps (beyond the iOS core apps) you bought and/or
installed.

'it is NOT cleaned of apps'

then you need to do that.

it remains YOUR iPad, your brother just has the use of it
until he figures out how to get you off his back.

Wrong agin no suprise there.

he's right. you're not.

I lent him my fathers old ipad, without ANY form of network connection.

doesn't matter.

My father only wanted to use teh ipad for photos a few flower/gardening apps.
When our father died I suggested my brother had the ipad and got himself into
the 21st century. at that time he was going to the library for email. He
hasn't a mobile phone and the last camera he used was a cosmic sysmbol and he
has NO interest in photography or gardening, so he didn't see a use for the
iPad. So for 1-2 weeks I lent him the SIM via O2 from my ipad.
I showed him how he could check email, browse the web etc...
He then started to see the attraction and use of an ipad.
I then took the SIM back and said if you want to still use email and some of
the other features you have the following choices.
1/ go to the library or anywhre else you can get free but perhaps slow access
2/ pay about a tenner a month for slow BB access vai a SIM
3/ get a prober broadband connection from BT (or anyone else)

ok, but none of that matters.

So he went for option3. He also got a new PC, the previous one had NO
facility for a newtwork

was it made in 1982?

we tried a USB stick version but that just kept
diconnecting itself. After he got his own net connection I, updated the ipad
from ios6 to 8 and then deleted my account on the ipad,

there is no account to delete.

leaving my apps there still installed

that's the problem.

the reason that if he should use them they won't work, he'll
wonder why and call me and I'll tell him that's because they are in my name
and if he wants those apps then he needs to redownload them in HIS name
and if necessary PAY for them with HIS own money.

he needs to do that. otherwise, he has pirated apps.

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

Because, freeware or payware, he doesn't own them, an has no inherent
right to use them.

FFS he CAN'T USE them because they are in my name.
Why is the so difficult for you to understand ?

he can, but he just can't update them.

regardless, he still has to erase them, as has been explained many
times already. they're not his apps.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

ipads do not have multiple users.

That's not entirely true.

it's 100% true. there is no user account login, as there is on a
laptop/desktop computer.

the person who is holding the ipad has full access to everything on the
device.

some apps might have their own access control, such as a banking app
asking for the bank login id/pw, but that's not a function of the ipad.

They can have multiple email acoounts for a
number of different people. BUT ...

they can, but any of those users can read *all* email, regardless of
its intended recipient or email account.

What has that got do with whether or not theree can be multiple mail
accounts?

this isn't about multiple email accounts.

it's about multiple user accounts, of which there are none.

Read what you wrote. It's at the top of this email. "ipads do not have
multiple users". That's not the same as 'multiple user accounts'
although I expect that you will now argue that it is.

of course it's the same!! you don't seriously think that i meant you
can't hand an ipad to another person. by your definition *everything*
has multiple users.

ios devices are a single user device. there is no concept of multiple
users. none whatsoever.

email apps do support multiple email accounts because most people have
more than one email account, but that's completely unrelated to the
topic.

They can only have one person in overall control, who pays the bills
and whose permission is required before anything drastic is done to
the setup.

in other words, ipads do not have multiple users, exactly as i said.

You didn't define exactly what you think is meant by a 'user'.

oh please. you've been around computers long enough to know exactly
what multiple users means, but aside from that, i defined exactly what
it meant. there is no excuse.

Of course I know what multiple users means. I also know what multiple
users accounts means. My iPad has multiple email accounts. When it
comes to paying bills it has only one account. :-

in other words, you're arguing just to argue.

My description of the situation is exactly correct. You may classify
it as you like.

nope. you're moving the goalposts so that you can pretend that an
irrelevant detail is all that matters. it doesn't work that way.

I spelled out exactly what I meant. We wouldn't be having this
argument if you had done the same thing at the beginning.

i did.

we wouldn't be having this argument if you read what i wrote:
it's 100% true. there is no user account login, as there is on a
laptop/desktop computer.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I don't expect the password to be stored and authenticated in
individual devices. That way the device would not need to be connected
to the cloud and could still authenticate an old password even after
the password had been changed in all other devices via the cloud. My
expectation and observation is that password authentication *must* be
done via the cloud. No connection to the cloud - no authentication.

obviously, since your appleid password is for accessing icloud or the
itunes store, both of which require internet access of some kind.

It's also used to control access to a number of internal functions
within the iPad.

nope.

Yep.

Nope - I'm afraid nospam is correct. The iPad only asks for the
passcode which is not the same as the password.

thank you.

On Mon, 01 Dec 2014 15:45:15 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

ipads do not have multiple users.

That's not entirely true.

it's 100% true. there is no user account login, as there is on a
laptop/desktop computer.

the person who is holding the ipad has full access to everything on the
device.

some apps might have their own access control, such as a banking app
asking for the bank login id/pw, but that's not a function of the ipad.

They can have multiple email acoounts for a
number of different people. BUT ...

they can, but any of those users can read *all* email, regardless of
its intended recipient or email account.

What has that got do with whether or not theree can be multiple mail
accounts?

this isn't about multiple email accounts.

it's about multiple user accounts, of which there are none.

Read what you wrote. It's at the top of this email. "ipads do not have
multiple users". That's not the same as 'multiple user accounts'
although I expect that you will now argue that it is.

of course it's the same!! you don't seriously think that i meant you
can't hand an ipad to another person. by your definition *everything*
has multiple users.

Multiple email accounts means multiple users. It doesn't mean that
everyone you hand it to has their own email account.

ios devices are a single user device. there is no concept of multiple
users. none whatsoever.

email apps do support multiple email accounts because most people have
more than one email account, but that's completely unrelated to the
topic.

They can only have one person in overall control, who pays the bills
and whose permission is required before anything drastic is done to
the setup.

in other words, ipads do not have multiple users, exactly as i said.

You didn't define exactly what you think is meant by a 'user'.

oh please. you've been around computers long enough to know exactly
what multiple users means, but aside from that, i defined exactly what
it meant. there is no excuse.

Of course I know what multiple users means. I also know what multiple
users accounts means. My iPad has multiple email accounts. When it
comes to paying bills it has only one account. :-

in other words, you're arguing just to argue.

I made clear exactly what I was talking about and I was quite happy to
leave it at that. YOU are the person who came along to argue.

My description of the situation is exactly correct. You may classify
it as you like.

nope. you're moving the goalposts so that you can pretend that an
irrelevant detail is all that matters. it doesn't work that way.

I spelled out exactly what I meant. We wouldn't be having this
argument if you had done the same thing at the beginning.

i did.

we wouldn't be having this argument if you read what i wrote:
it's 100% true. there is no user account login, as there is on a
laptop/desktop computer.

So?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


They can have multiple email acoounts for a
number of different people. BUT ...

they can, but any of those users can read *all* email, regardless of
its intended recipient or email account.

What has that got do with whether or not theree can be multiple mail
accounts?

this isn't about multiple email accounts.

it's about multiple user accounts, of which there are none.

Read what you wrote. It's at the top of this email. "ipads do not have
multiple users". That's not the same as 'multiple user accounts'
although I expect that you will now argue that it is.

of course it's the same!! you don't seriously think that i meant you
can't hand an ipad to another person. by your definition *everything*
has multiple users.

Multiple email accounts means multiple users.

no it doesn't.

It doesn't mean that
everyone you hand it to has their own email account.

which confirms it doesn't mean multiple users.

multiple email accounts means multiple email accounts which is
completely separate from multiple users.

in fact, multiple users could share one email account.

They can only have one person in overall control, who pays the bills
and whose permission is required before anything drastic is done to
the setup.

in other words, ipads do not have multiple users, exactly as i said.

You didn't define exactly what you think is meant by a 'user'.

oh please. you've been around computers long enough to know exactly
what multiple users means, but aside from that, i defined exactly what
it meant. there is no excuse.

Of course I know what multiple users means. I also know what multiple
users accounts means. My iPad has multiple email accounts. When it
comes to paying bills it has only one account. :-

in other words, you're arguing just to argue.

I made clear exactly what I was talking about and I was quite happy to
leave it at that. YOU are the person who came along to argue.

nope. you knew what i meant all along and twisted it to argue, and by
your own admission!

On Mon, 01 Dec 2014 16:36:33 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


They can have multiple email acoounts for a
number of different people. BUT ...

they can, but any of those users can read *all* email, regardless of
its intended recipient or email account.

What has that got do with whether or not theree can be multiple mail
accounts?

this isn't about multiple email accounts.

it's about multiple user accounts, of which there are none.

Read what you wrote. It's at the top of this email. "ipads do not have
multiple users". That's not the same as 'multiple user accounts'
although I expect that you will now argue that it is.

of course it's the same!! you don't seriously think that i meant you
can't hand an ipad to another person. by your definition *everything*
has multiple users.

Multiple email accounts means multiple users.

no it doesn't.

My wife will be disappointed to learn that she does not really have a
mail account on my iPad. She has several mailboxes under her name
which carry far more traffic than my humble few.

It doesn't mean that
everyone you hand it to has their own email account.

which confirms it doesn't mean multiple users.

The last time I looked, two people were multiple.

multiple email accounts means multiple email accounts which is
completely separate from multiple users.

in fact, multiple users could share one email account.

You are trying to duck (sorry SD).

Certainly multiple users could share one email account but the iPad
will also allow multiple users to each have their own seperate and
individual email accounts.

They can only have one person in overall control, who pays the bills
and whose permission is required before anything drastic is done to
the setup.

in other words, ipads do not have multiple users, exactly as i said.

You didn't define exactly what you think is meant by a 'user'.

oh please. you've been around computers long enough to know exactly
what multiple users means, but aside from that, i defined exactly what
it meant. there is no excuse.

Of course I know what multiple users means. I also know what multiple
users accounts means. My iPad has multiple email accounts. When it
comes to paying bills it has only one account. :-

in other words, you're arguing just to argue.

I made clear exactly what I was talking about and I was quite happy to
leave it at that. YOU are the person who came along to argue.

nope. you knew what i meant all along and twisted it to argue, and by
your own admission!

I pointed out that there was an exception to your original statement.
Which is true. And you have been trying argue that it is no exception
ever since. You can go on with this argument if you like. I'm happy to
leave you to it.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

FFS he CAN'T USE them because they are in my name.
Why is the so difficult for you to understand ?

I understand that. What I don't understand is why you didn't give him a
clean iPad, devoid of any evidence of previous owner/users, and why you
insisted on giving him one cluttered with your useless (to him) stuff.

For FFS II

He had the ipad for a few weeks, I had taken it home set it up under MY ID to
install software for MY brother. I deleted the apps that I'd brought for my
father and installed anything I thought he'd be intresed in such as scoccrer
and golf and other **** that I have no intrest in.

that was one of your mistakes.

those apps are tied to you, not him, and he cannot update them without
your apple id/password.

I then gave him the ipad with NO net connection, after a few days he phoned
me up saying soemm of the game sdon;t work because they need a network
connection.

only multi-player games won't work, which should be obvious, as they
need to connect with other players.

single player games will work fine without a network connection.

I said "YES I know, some do, I'll bring over my SIM for you on friday"

I installed the SIM and left it with him for a week, some games he couldn't
update because they were too large I guess. A few days later he said
something along the lines of he can't download any more. Yep my 1GB per month
had been used up in a few days.

wtf was he doing that he used 1 gig in a few days??

As I didn't want him to think this workled by magic I explaine dthe situation
with 3G and using a SIM. In case you don't know this is classed as educating
someone. I then said well that's your lot then isn;t it, until next month and
by teh tiome that happens I'd changed my bank and didn't re-new my SIM DD, so
that was cancelled by O2 about a week later.
So I left my brother with an ipad3 running ios6 in my name but no possibility
of getting on-line unless he went to a public wifi stop.
I told him how to buy a SIM and how to phone BT to get broadband.
I'd advised getting teh cheapest BB from BT as that was the easist and best
option I'd recomend for him.

none of that matters.

If he liked them he needs to install, or buy his own
copies. That is the right thing to do. All of a sudden you are sounding

like a certain individual from the Netherlands, who holds to a
philosophy most of us disagree with.

**** off idiot.

If the shoe fits...

I don't steal shoes. And as you've got a short memory you';ll notice I was
also one of those that disagred with him too.

he has apps he does not own.

BTW: Just how did you think I should **** off?

**** of calling me a pirate like that scumbag.

since he has apps he does not own and you gave them to him, both of you
are pirates.

They are taking up space on what is supposed to be his iPad, not yours.

Retaining them for his use on his iPad is a violation of the Apple
EULA.

NO it is NOT because he can NOT use them.

Then he should take the initiative and delete them himself. It is his
iPad to do whatever he chooses with it isn't it?

FFS III exactly.
It's he's ipad so why should I dlete the apps on that ipad that I donwloaded
for him by request and the apps he downloaded himself for his own use?

the apps you gave him are not his apps.

You should have presented him with an iPad cleaned of any evidence
that either you, or your father once owned it, so he could go about
doing his own thing with it.

Why ?

Because it is stupid not to.

No it is NOT.

it is.

Just supose that you lived 20 years in the past.
I came to you with this device that allowed you to takem photos and edit them
on on a device the size of a book and you didn;t even have to use chemicals.

Suppose I lent you this device (could be a pad a pnone or a PC) for a week
with a inbuilt camera and editing facilities, showed you how to use it and
left it with you for a week or so to use. Would you or I be guilty of piracy
if you used it in my name with software resitared to me ?

you would if you didn't transfer ownership.

You see that's how most education works, and what I'm used to.
What we do is buy the software for that device and anyone is allowed to use
it.
YES ANYONE.
Even adobe allow you to let anyone use their software on your PC don't they.

actually they don't.

you have to activate or subscribe to be able to use photoshop and other
creative suite apps.

if you sell or give away a computer you have to deactivate the app so
that the new owner can register his own copy (which he may need to
purchase). if you don't do that, the person getting the computer now
has a pirated copy.

He needs to climb up his own
learning curve, and discover what will be useful and entertaining for
him.

With millions of apps that's quite a climb only the stupid would allow
such
a climb.

There is a point to education you know.

Yes and giving someone a blank canvas isnt a good starting point.

it's the *only* starting point.

you don't hand a canvas with a painting already on it to someone and
let them take credit for the painting, do you?


Kick him out of the nest,
He';s in teh nest I'm out ofthe nest.

Then stop trying to be a mother hen.

I'm not I'm letting him make his own decision to wipe what he wants and to
install what he wants. You're the idiot telling me to wipe everything off his iPad.

suit yourself.

both you and he will have a ****load of problems.

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

Until he sets it up as a new iPad,

He hasn't a new iPad he has his my fathers old iPad.

doesn't matter. once it's reset, it's no different than a new ipad as
far as the configuration goes.

That's why I didn't reset it.

yet you keep saying you want it to be clear of your apps.

it's one or the other.

'it is NOT cleaned of apps'

then you need to do that.

Why it's his ipad registared to him not me.

if you gave it to him with apps, then the apps are registered to *you*.

it remains YOUR iPad, your brother just has the use of it
until he figures out how to get you off his back.

Wrong agin no suprise there.

he's right. you're not.

I'm right, my account is NO longer on the iPad HIS is.
It is NOW his ipad, why are you telling me to wipe his ipad ?

because the apps are yours, not his, and *cannot* be updated under his
apple id.

I then took the SIM back and said if you want to still use email and some
of
the other features you have the following choices.
1/ go to the library or anywhre else you can get free but perhaps slow
access
2/ pay about a tenner a month for slow BB access vai a SIM
3/ get a prober broadband connection from BT (or anyone else)

ok, but none of that matters.

Yes it does.

nope. it makes absolutely no difference

So he went for option3. He also got a new PC, the previous one had NO
facility for a newtwork

was it made in 1982?

NO.

then it has a facility for a network.

we tried a USB stick version but that just kept
diconnecting itself. After he got his own net connection I, updated the
ipad
from ios6 to 8 and then deleted my account on the ipad,

there is no account to delete.

Yes there was the one I original set up in my name on the day I brought it
which was about 1 week after the ipad3 went on sale.

there is no account to delete.

supplying an apple id for the app store is not an account.

leaving my apps there still installed

that's the problem.

No problem at all. It's quite legal to leave apps opn an ipad ort any other
device.

not if you give the ipad to someone else.

the reason that if he should use them they won't work, he'll
wonder why and call me and I'll tell him that's because they are in my
name
and if he wants those apps then he needs to redownload them in HIS name
and if necessary PAY for them with HIS own money.

he needs to do that. otherwise, he has pirated apps.

they aren't pirated. He can use them any more than you can.

they are pirated apps.

those apps are tied to *your* apple id and cannot be updated with his
apple id.