playing with strobe

On 8/6/2016 1:35 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
nospam wrote:
In article , Neil
wrote:
In common jargon, the studio or camera mounted flashes would be "flash
units", differentiated from strobe lights that are capable of
full-powered flashes at multiple times per second.

Not true, as any of them would be called a flash.

in common photo jargon, studio flashes are often called strobes (to
differentiate from continuous lights) while on-camera flash is usually
called just that, a flash, either built-in or external.

Or they are commonly called either a speedlite, a
speedlight, a speed lite, or a speed light.

in non-photo jargon, a strobe light is a rapidly flashing light that
flashes multiple times per second.

It need not be able to flash multiple times per second,
only multiple times.

some camera flashes can rapidly fire for a stroboscopic effect, but
only for a very brief time.

Most can do that for a significant amount of time, like
all day long for those powered by AC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strobe_light

http://www.steves-digicams.com/knowl...essories/what-
is-a-speedlight.html

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/speed-light

speedlight is a nikon trademark and speedlite is a canon trademark.

pentax, olympus, sony and everyone else can't call it that.

That is totally false. Nikon *uses* the term "speedlight" and
Canon *uses* the term "speedlite", but neither of them has ever
registered those terms as trademarks (it would almost certainly
be denied anyway).

Other companies can use those terms too (and have). They generally
don't because they don't want to be confused with Canon or Nikon.

Yongnuo uses both Speedlite and Speedlight. Nissin at least uses
Speedlite, and probably uses Speedlight too.

long ago, pentax called their external flashes strobonar:
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Strobonar

using the term 'speedlight' generically to mean on-camera flash may be
common, but it's wrong and it's never two words, 'speed light', as
written above.

More of your great imagination. All these various ways of using
the term have been in use for decades now.

Technically a "strobe light" is any triggered flash. A
speedlight is a subset of strobes that can be mounted
physically directly on the camera, as a builtin or on
the hotshoe. It's all sort of an arbitrary set of
distinctions.

I don't think that how or where the units are mounted differentiate
their designation as strobes or speedlights except, possibly in limited
jargon.

that limited jargon is called photography.

That is one thing you did get correct!

http://improvephotography.com/5898/speedlights-vs-strobes/
http://scottkelby.com/studio-strobes-vs-small-off-camera-flashes/
http://jakehicksphotography.com/late...-better-speedl
ights-or-strobes
http://www.stevenjosephphotography.c...photographers-
steven-joseph-photography-the-8-advantages-of-using-speedlites-vs-studio-
strobes-strobist/
http://www.discoverdigitalphotograph...difference-bet
ween-speedlights-and-studio-strobes/
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/browse...161/N/42945511
76

I only looked at a couple of these, the both agreed with
exactly what I said to start with. What's the point
though... we can find somebody on the Internet that will
say anything. The last one, from BH Photo, is probably
the only one of these that is "authoritative" (it one
that agrees with what I originally said).


I should have known better. My purpose was to start a discussion on use
of strobe as a creative tool, for unusual effects.


--
PeterN

Neil wrote:
On 8/6/2016 2:07 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Davoud wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson:
What does "ordinary strobes" mean to you?

To me a strobe runs directly from AC power...

To me a "strobe" runs on battery power.

Okay, what do you call all those studio flash units that
run on AC power? :-)

In common jargon, the studio or camera mounted flashes
would be "flash units", differentiated from strobe
lights that are capable of full-powered flashes at
multiple times per second.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strobe_light

Not the greatest cite! It says virtually nothing about
photography. It does have a reference to another article
though, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_(photography),
but it is not really much better for differentiating
terms. Both articles are typical of anything where many
people believe they know something: they inject many
technical errors and very poor wording into the wiki
articles.

I suspect you saw the title and expected something in the
article must be useful. It really is necessary to carefully
read an article before citing it.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/knowl...peedlight.html

False information, such as the statement that
"Speedlight" is a Nikon trademark is not helpful.

Regardless it's just one more nice guy mouthing off
on the Internet with no background, no knowledge, and
getting it wrong because of that.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/speed-light

Do you call that helpful? Did you even read it?

Technically a "strobe light" is any triggered flash. A
speedlight is a subset of strobes that can be mounted
physically directly on the camera, as a builtin or on
the hotshoe. It's all sort of an arbitrary set of
distinctions.

I don't think that how or where the units are mounted
differentiate their designation as strobes or
speedlights except, possibly in limited jargon.

In the world of photography that petty much is the
distinction. Speedlight is a brand name (not a
registered trademark) of Nikon, and Speedlite is the
same for Canon. Neither of them make studio strobes.
Third party manufacturers also use those terms.

"Studio strobes" as a term used by photographers started
when multiple lights were connected a single very heavy
power pack. They could be triggered repeatedly (at a
low enough power or a slow enough rate) for hours on
end.

Setting up a strobe system, due to the weight of the
power pack, the need for AC power, and the umbilical
cord going to each separate flash head, was not easy or
quick. Hence they initially were rarely used outside of
a studio where the setup was permanently in place.
Camera mounted flash units operating from batteries
(originally D cells, but now mostly AA cells), were
called Speedlights by Nikon and Speedlites by Canon to
differentiate them from Studio Strobes.

Today though there are "monobloc" or "monolight" studio
strobes. The entire unit is self contained, and in some
cases even includes a lithium battery pack. These of
course are easy to setup, even outside, and they travel
well. Hence many of the reasons for the original names
no longer exists.

One thing that is significant though... On camera flash
units are all restricted to less than 100 Ws of power.
Most are between 60 and 80 Ws. While the least
expensive studio strobe will be more than that. 160 Ws
units are commonly the low end, but 360 and 640 Ws units
are the work horse for high end non-pro and low end pro
use. Both lower power (120 Ws) and higher power units
exits.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 8/6/2016 2:16 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Neil wrote:
On 8/6/2016 2:07 AM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Davoud wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson:
What does "ordinary strobes" mean to you?

To me a strobe runs directly from AC power...

To me a "strobe" runs on battery power.

Okay, what do you call all those studio flash units that
run on AC power? :-)

In common jargon, the studio or camera mounted flashes
would be "flash units", differentiated from strobe
lights that are capable of full-powered flashes at
multiple times per second.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strobe_light

Not the greatest cite! It says virtually nothing about
photography.

Which is why I said "common jargon", ergo broader than just used in
photography.

It does have a reference to another article
though, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_(photography),
but it is not really much better for differentiating
terms. Both articles are typical of anything where many
people believe they know something: they inject many
technical errors and very poor wording into the wiki
articles.

I suspect you saw the title and expected something in the
article must be useful. It really is necessary to carefully
read an article before citing it.

Your suspicion is incorrect. Having worked with strobes in contexts
beyond just photography, it is often important that terms can
differentiate objects. I presented the link for the purpose of informing
those who may never have used the kind of strobes it referred to, but
might easily see the difference.

Technically a "strobe light" is any triggered flash. A
speedlight is a subset of strobes that can be mounted
physically directly on the camera, as a builtin or on
the hotshoe. It's all sort of an arbitrary set of
distinctions.

I don't think that how or where the units are mounted
differentiate their designation as strobes or
speedlights except, possibly in limited jargon.

In the world of photography that petty much is the
distinction.

"The world of photography" is one of limited jargon, and is in conflict
with the broader use of "strobe". So, it appears that we agree, despite
your protests.

"Studio strobes" as a term used by photographers started
when multiple lights were connected a single very heavy
power pack. They could be triggered repeatedly (at a
low enough power or a slow enough rate) for hours on
end.

Which is why I differentiated them from strobes that can produce
full-power flashes dozens (and more) times per second for hours. I've
never owned photographic studio strobes that could do that. YMMV.

--
Best regards,

Neil

PeterN wrote:
I should have known better. My purpose was to start a
discussion on use of strobe as a creative tool, for
unusual effects.

A point not very well taken. (Though of course we'd all
be better off without at least one contributer that adds
trash to anything...)

But really, to use strobes in creative ways absolutely
means understanding the technical aspects. And
secondly, what did you do to engage in discussion for
the purpose you state? If all you do is throw a morsel
over the wall and then listen carefully for the fighting
of dogs attacking, that's what you get!

Instead you could have added you knowledge or your
questions about strobes...

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 2016-08-06 18:07:34 +0000, PeterN said:


I should have known better. My purpose was to start a discussion on use
of strobe as a creative tool, for unusual effects.

Good luck with that. At least Floyd responded sensibly and the "expert
of all things" arrived on scene. ;-I

--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

In common jargon, the studio or camera mounted flashes would be "flash
units", differentiated from strobe lights that are capable of
full-powered flashes at multiple times per second.

Not true, as any of them would be called a flash.

studio flashes are typically called strobes, to differentiate them from
camera-mounted flashes, but some people might lump all of them together
under one name.

see the links at the bottom, which you even *agree* with, yet you argue.

in common photo jargon, studio flashes are often called strobes (to
differentiate from continuous lights) while on-camera flash is usually
called just that, a flash, either built-in or external.

Or they are commonly called either a speedlite, a
speedlight, a speed lite, or a speed light.

they may be called that, but unless they're from nikon (speedlight) or
canon (speedlite), it's wrong.

in non-photo jargon, a strobe light is a rapidly flashing light that
flashes multiple times per second.

It need not be able to flash multiple times per second,
only multiple times.

while that's technically true, it's the exception. a (non-photo) strobe
light is almost always fired at multiple times per second.

some camera flashes can rapidly fire for a stroboscopic effect, but
only for a very brief time.

Most can do that for a significant amount of time, like
all day long for those powered by AC.

i wasn't talking about ac powered flashes, aka studio strobes.

i specifically said camera flashes, which are almost always battery
powered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strobe_light


http://www.steves-digicams.com/knowl...-accessories/w
hat-
is-a-speedlight.html

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/speed-light

speedlight is a nikon trademark and speedlite is a canon trademark.

pentax, olympus, sony and everyone else can't call it that.

That is totally false. Nikon *uses* the term "speedlight" and
Canon *uses* the term "speedlite", but neither of them has ever
registered those terms as trademarks (it would almost certainly
be denied anyway).

fine, it's a brand name. the point still stands and you're arguing just
to argue.

pentax, does *not* call their flashes speedlights, nor does olympus or
sony.

Other companies can use those terms too (and have).

not very many and none of the major brands.

They generally
don't because they don't want to be confused with Canon or Nikon.

that's exactly the point.

Yongnuo uses both Speedlite and Speedlight. Nissin at least uses
Speedlite, and probably uses Speedlight too.

only because the term has become generic.

and they don't always get it right either, calling it 'speelite':
http://www.yongnuo.eu/catalog.html?p...ils&flypage=fl
ypage.tpl&product_id=49&category_id=13

or not at all:
http://www.nissindigital.com/di866mkii.html
http://www.nissindigital.com/Di466.html

long ago, pentax called their external flashes strobonar:
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Strobonar

using the term 'speedlight' generically to mean on-camera flash may be
common, but it's wrong and it's never two words, 'speed light', as
written above.

More of your great imagination. All these various ways of using
the term have been in use for decades now.

only because of nikon/canon's dominance, and for non-nikon/canon, it's
a mistake.

pentax users didn't call their flashes speedlights, mainly because it
said strobonar on it.

Technically a "strobe light" is any triggered flash. A
speedlight is a subset of strobes that can be mounted
physically directly on the camera, as a builtin or on
the hotshoe. It's all sort of an arbitrary set of
distinctions.

I don't think that how or where the units are mounted differentiate
their designation as strobes or speedlights except, possibly in limited
jargon.

that limited jargon is called photography.

That is one thing you did get correct!

all of it was correct

http://improvephotography.com/5898/speedlights-vs-strobes/
http://scottkelby.com/studio-strobes-vs-small-off-camera-flashes/
http://jakehicksphotography.com/late...-better-speedl
ights-or-strobes
http://www.stevenjosephphotography.c...photographers-
steven-joseph-photography-the-8-advantages-of-using-speedlites-vs-studio-
strobes-strobist/
http://www.discoverdigitalphotograph...difference-bet
ween-speedlights-and-studio-strobes/
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/browse...161/N/42945511
76

I only looked at a couple of these, the both agreed with
exactly what I said to start with. What's the point
though... we can find somebody on the Internet that will
say anything. The last one, from BH Photo, is probably
the only one of these that is "authoritative" (it one
that agrees with what I originally said).

the point is that a flash typically means an on-camera flash and a
strobe typically means a studio flash.

unfortunately, there are those who insist on arguing.

In article , Neil
wrote:

Technically a "strobe light" is any triggered flash. A
speedlight is a subset of strobes that can be mounted
physically directly on the camera, as a builtin or on
the hotshoe. It's all sort of an arbitrary set of
distinctions.

I don't think that how or where the units are mounted
differentiate their designation as strobes or
speedlights except, possibly in limited jargon.

In the world of photography that petty much is the
distinction.

"The world of photography" is one of limited jargon, and is in conflict
with the broader use of "strobe". So, it appears that we agree, despite
your protests.

it's the only jargon that applies when discussing flashes for cameras
or any other aspect of photography.

when discussing digital logic, strobe means something else entirely.

On 08/06/2016 03:32 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Neil
wrote:

Technically a "strobe light" is any triggered flash. A
speedlight is a subset of strobes that can be mounted
physically directly on the camera, as a builtin or on
the hotshoe. It's all sort of an arbitrary set of
distinctions.

I don't think that how or where the units are mounted
differentiate their designation as strobes or
speedlights except, possibly in limited jargon.

In the world of photography that petty much is the
distinction.

"The world of photography" is one of limited jargon, and is in conflict
with the broader use of "strobe". So, it appears that we agree, despite
your protests.

it's the only jargon that applies when discussing flashes for cameras
or any other aspect of photography.

when discussing digital logic, strobe means something else entirely.


Leaving aside digital logic....

When there is a chance for confusion, I prefer to use the terms "studio
strobe" and "camera mounted strobe" (or sub "flash" for "strobe")

_Generally_, a studio strobe is AC powered, stand-mounted, recycles
faster, and has a higher output. A camera mounted strobe is usually
battery powered, has a shoe mount or camera bracket ("Potato masher
type"), recycle time increases as the battery power drops, and the
output is lower, even at full power. _Generally_.

--
Ken Hart

nospam wrote:
In article , Floyd L. Davidson
wrote:

In common jargon, the studio or camera mounted flashes would be "flash
units", differentiated from strobe lights that are capable of
full-powered flashes at multiple times per second.

Not true, as any of them would be called a flash.

studio flashes are typically called strobes, to differentiate them from
camera-mounted flashes, but some people might lump all of them together
under one name.

see the links at the bottom, which you even *agree* with, yet you argue.

in common photo jargon, studio flashes are often called strobes (to
differentiate from continuous lights) while on-camera flash is usually
called just that, a flash, either built-in or external.

Or they are commonly called either a speedlite, a
speedlight, a speed lite, or a speed light.

they may be called that, but unless they're from nikon (speedlight) or
canon (speedlite), it's wrong.

That is a really stupid statement. Canon and Nikon do
not own those terms in any way. Nissin, as an example,
can call one of their flash units anything they like.

in non-photo jargon, a strobe light is a rapidly flashing light that
flashes multiple times per second.

It need not be able to flash multiple times per second,
only multiple times.

while that's technically true, it's the exception. a (non-photo) strobe
light is almost always fired at multiple times per second.

Not true. Sorry, but you probably have spent too much
time in places serving alcohol, and think that is the
whole world. It ain't.

some camera flashes can rapidly fire for a stroboscopic effect, but
only for a very brief time.

Most can do that for a significant amount of time, like
all day long for those powered by AC.

i wasn't talking about ac powered flashes, aka studio strobes.

i specifically said camera flashes, which are almost always battery
powered.

Not very precise wording. But regardless, battery
powered flash units can also fire away continuously,
just that they stop when the battery runs down and it
would only last all day at very slow rates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strobe_light


http://www.steves-digicams.com/knowl...-accessories/w
hat-
is-a-speedlight.html

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/speed-light

speedlight is a nikon trademark and speedlite is a canon trademark.

pentax, olympus, sony and everyone else can't call it that.

That is totally false. Nikon *uses* the term "speedlight" and
Canon *uses* the term "speedlite", but neither of them has ever
registered those terms as trademarks (it would almost certainly
be denied anyway).

fine, it's a brand name. the point still stands and you're arguing just
to argue.

Your point was invalid, and now you argue to argue. The
"everyone else can't call it that" was bull****. Still
is.

pentax, does *not* call their flashes speedlights, nor does olympus or
sony.

So what? You claimed they can't. Obviously if they
wanted to they could!

Other companies can use those terms too (and have).

not very many and none of the major brands.

Wrong again. Nissin and Yongnuo are both well
established.

They generally
don't because they don't want to be confused with Canon or Nikon.

that's exactly the point.

That is *my* point. Not one that you made.

Yongnuo uses both Speedlite and Speedlight. Nissin at least uses
Speedlite, and probably uses Speedlight too.

only because the term has become generic.

Those terms were always generic. Neither has ever been
trademarked.

and they don't always get it right either, calling it 'speelite':
http://www.yongnuo.eu/catalog.html?p...ils&flypage=fl
ypage.tpl&product_id=49&category_id=13

Oh goodness, now you are a spelling cop.

or not at all:
http://www.nissindigital.com/di866mkii.html
http://www.nissindigital.com/Di466.html

Non Sequitur.

long ago, pentax called their external flashes strobonar:
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Strobonar

using the term 'speedlight' generically to mean on-camera flash may be
common, but it's wrong and it's never two words, 'speed light', as
written above.

More of your great imagination. All these various ways of using
the term have been in use for decades now.

only because of nikon/canon's dominance, and for non-nikon/canon, it's
a mistake.

So?

pentax users didn't call their flashes speedlights, mainly because it
said strobonar on it.

So?

Technically a "strobe light" is any triggered flash. A
speedlight is a subset of strobes that can be mounted
physically directly on the camera, as a builtin or on
the hotshoe. It's all sort of an arbitrary set of
distinctions.

I don't think that how or where the units are mounted differentiate
their designation as strobes or speedlights except, possibly in limited
jargon.

that limited jargon is called photography.

That is one thing you did get correct!

all of it was correct

Yeah, sure. So look up the trademarks and tell us when
they were granted.

http://improvephotography.com/5898/speedlights-vs-strobes/
http://scottkelby.com/studio-strobes-vs-small-off-camera-flashes/
http://jakehicksphotography.com/late...-better-speedl
ights-or-strobes
http://www.stevenjosephphotography.c...photographers-
steven-joseph-photography-the-8-advantages-of-using-speedlites-vs-studio-
strobes-strobist/
http://www.discoverdigitalphotograph...difference-bet
ween-speedlights-and-studio-strobes/
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/browse...161/N/42945511
76

I only looked at a couple of these, the both agreed with
exactly what I said to start with. What's the point
though... we can find somebody on the Internet that will
say anything. The last one, from BH Photo, is probably
the only one of these that is "authoritative" (it one
that agrees with what I originally said).

the point is that a flash typically means an on-camera flash and a
strobe typically means a studio flash.

Either of them are a flash. Speedlights are on camera, strobes
are studio.

unfortunately, there are those who insist on arguing.

We know you're here, you don't need to remind us why.

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

On 8/6/2016 2:55 PM, Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
PeterN wrote:
I should have known better. My purpose was to start a
discussion on use of strobe as a creative tool, for
unusual effects.

A point not very well taken.


(Though of course we'd all
be better off without at least one contributer that adds
trash to anything...)

True.


But really, to use strobes in creative ways absolutely
means understanding the technical aspects. And
secondly, what did you do to engage in discussion for
the purpose you state? If all you do is throw a morsel
over the wall and then listen carefully for the fighting
of dogs attacking, that's what you get!

Instead you could have added you knowledge or your
questions about strobes...


My original thought was to start a discussion on the uses of strobe as a
means to create unusual seeing. As I said earlier, I agree with your
original comment that the original image was nothing special. Even if I
was more specific, I doubt if much would have changed. I respect your
knowledge, and frankly I meant to reply to he who knows everything.

--
PeterN