exhausted fixer: what risks?

i'm reading adam's book "the negative", but i haven't reached the dark
room chapters yet. i wouldn't want to jump forward and backward while
reading that book, then here i am with this question.

yesterday evening i was in my darkroom to develop some rolls i shot
this summer during our holidays in south west usa.

kodak declares that 1 liter of (1+4)-solution of tmax fix can fix 12
rolls. using my deltas, after 8 rolls the fixer began being exhausted,
because the rolls remained slightly violet. frames seemed to be ok:
contrasty, dense and so on, but the whole stripe was slightly violet.
i didn't notice it because the colour was very light, then went on
using that fixer for 2 more rolls. the following ones (9th and 10th,
say, using that liter of solution) remained very violet-ish. i noticed
it as soon as i took them out of the tank: at this point, i trashed
the exhausted fixer, immediately prepared a liter of fresh one and
then re-fixed the rolls. i, then, used my wetting agent and when i
took the rolls out of the reel they were perfectly transparent and
with good contrast and density, exactly as i expected them to be.
when i hang them to dry, i saw that the previous ones (that had been
hang for about one hour) were slightly violet, then i put them back
into the fixer bath, then the wetting agent and so on. at these point
these 2 rolls seem to be ok, but i'm wondering what may happen to the
negatives in this way; i mean: with an uneven or incomplete fixing,
can the negatives get damaged?
and how long can a negative stay with an incomplete fixing before
getting damaged? hours? days? months?

thanks in advance and excuse my newbie questions.

regards,
--
Gianni Rondinini (30, tanti, RA)
Nikon user - Bmw driver
http://bugbarbeq.deviantart.com

Gianni Rondinini wrote:

i'm reading adam's book "the negative", but i haven't reached the dark
room chapters yet. i wouldn't want to jump forward and backward while
reading that book, then here i am with this question.

yesterday evening i was in my darkroom to develop some rolls i shot
this summer during our holidays in south west usa.

kodak declares that 1 liter of (1+4)-solution of tmax fix can fix 12
rolls. using my deltas, after 8 rolls the fixer began being exhausted,
because the rolls remained slightly violet. frames seemed to be ok:
contrasty, dense and so on, but the whole stripe was slightly violet.
i didn't notice it because the colour was very light, then went on
using that fixer for 2 more rolls. the following ones (9th and 10th,
say, using that liter of solution) remained very violet-ish. i noticed
it as soon as i took them out of the tank: at this point, i trashed
the exhausted fixer, immediately prepared a liter of fresh one and
then re-fixed the rolls. i, then, used my wetting agent and when i
took the rolls out of the reel they were perfectly transparent and
with good contrast and density, exactly as i expected them to be.
when i hang them to dry, i saw that the previous ones (that had been
hang for about one hour) were slightly violet, then i put them back
into the fixer bath, then the wetting agent and so on. at these point
these 2 rolls seem to be ok, but i'm wondering what may happen to the
negatives in this way; i mean: with an uneven or incomplete fixing,
can the negatives get damaged?
and how long can a negative stay with an incomplete fixing before
getting damaged? hours? days? months?

thanks in advance and excuse my newbie questions.


One assumes your talking about T-max or some
other t-grained film? The purple stain you see
is a sensitizing dye. It's normal to have a
slight residue after fixing but this should be
gone after using a hypo clearing wash agent. If
not refix. As far as refixing already washed and
dried film, it takes more than a hour for residual
silver to affect it. But if there's a purple stain
after both fixing and washing the film is either
inadequately fixed or you didn't remove all silver
thiosulfate complexes by using a hypo clear before
washing. Should also wash a good 10 minutes.

Generally as you use a film fixing bath you would
need to lengthen the fix time as you approach it's
maximum capacity. IOW if you fix the first few rolls
for 6-7 minutes you would need to fix the remaining
rolls for increasing longer times. Some people
recommend using a two bath fixer with t-grain films
like tmax, delta etc. to help insure complete fixing
and it would also reduce fixer byproducts. Whether
you do or not its a good idea to fix these films
for 3 times the clearing time instead of the normal
recommended 2 times the clearing time for non
t-grain films.

I use fresh fix for each roll. Add 20 ml of concentrate to whatever
solution volume needed to do one roll. Give 5 minutes with
constant agitation and take a look. Give another 2 or 3
minutes if needed. Toss the fix when done. Dan

Gianni Rondinini wrote:

kodak declares that 1 liter of (1+4)-solution of tmax fix can fix 12
rolls. using my deltas, after 8 rolls the fixer began being exhausted,
because the rolls remained slightly violet.

I wouldn't worry too much about a bit of the dye remaining
in the film, but I would suggest moving to a two bath system.
I'm not an expert, so don't take my opinions as gospel, but I can
assure you that using a two bath system is easy and once you
get in the habit it is not significantly more work than a
single fixing bath.

The big advantage of the two bath system is that you can
be sure that you are fixing properly because the second
bath is always pretty fresh. You could also use fresh fix
every time, which wouldn't be as economical but would give
you the same assurance.

Make up two bottles of film strength fixer. Label the bottles
"one" and "two." Use the fixer from bottle one for four
minutes (if using a rapid fixer, I use Kodak Fixer for six minutes
each bath). Pour the fixer back into bottle one, and then
use fixer two for another four minutes.

It is safe to inspect film after the first fix, and if the
fixer seems to be getting tired then discard the first fixer,
pour the second fixer into bottle "one" and make up fresh fixer
for bottle "two." After a few cycles you should start over
with two fresh baths. I make fresh baths every time I finish
a gallon of fixer.

I get around 40 rolls per gallon from Kodak Fixer. I think this
is fairly conservative for a two bath system. You should get
somewhat more than this from rapid fixer. My bottles hold
around 600ml. I get 10-12 rolls from from a fresh first bath,
and around 6-8 from a first bath which was formerly a second
bath. If I am shooting a lot of Pan-F the fixer capacity seems
higher than this, if I am using a lot of Tmax-100 the fixer
capacity is less. Fixer is cheap, so if in doubt, change fixing
baths.

It may do some good to refix film if it has been less than
a couple weeks since they were fixed, but I wouldn't worry
too much about a bit of pink dye. It doesn't sound like
you have been seriously overworking your fixer.

Peter.
--

"Gianni Rondinini" wrote in message
news
i'm reading adam's book "the negative", but i haven't
reached the dark
room chapters yet. i wouldn't want to jump forward and
backward while
reading that book, then here i am with this question.

yesterday evening i was in my darkroom to develop some
rolls i shot
this summer during our holidays in south west usa.

kodak declares that 1 liter of (1+4)-solution of tmax fix
can fix 12
rolls. using my deltas, after 8 rolls the fixer began
being exhausted,
because the rolls remained slightly violet. frames seemed
to be ok:
contrasty, dense and so on, but the whole stripe was
slightly violet.
i didn't notice it because the colour was very light, then
went on
using that fixer for 2 more rolls. the following ones (9th
and 10th,
say, using that liter of solution) remained very
violet-ish. i noticed
it as soon as i took them out of the tank: at this point,
i trashed
the exhausted fixer, immediately prepared a liter of fresh
one and
then re-fixed the rolls. i, then, used my wetting agent
and when i
took the rolls out of the reel they were perfectly
transparent and
with good contrast and density, exactly as i expected them
to be.
when i hang them to dry, i saw that the previous ones
(that had been
hang for about one hour) were slightly violet, then i put
them back
into the fixer bath, then the wetting agent and so on. at
these point
these 2 rolls seem to be ok, but i'm wondering what may
happen to the
negatives in this way; i mean: with an uneven or
incomplete fixing,
can the negatives get damaged?
and how long can a negative stay with an incomplete fixing
before
getting damaged? hours? days? months?

thanks in advance and excuse my newbie questions.

regards,
--
Gianni Rondinini (30, tanti, RA)
Nikon user - Bmw driver
http://bugbarbeq.deviantart.com


Peter Irwin's advice about 2 bath fixing is a very good
idea. The capacity of single baths to handle tabular grain
films like T-Max is considerably less than for conventional
film. Rapid fixer is less sensitive to the residual
chemicals that come out in the fixer and lasts longer with
these films. Some say that a single bath is sufficient with
rapid fixer but I prefer to use a two bath system.
It is impossible to give exact capacity for fixer because
the capacity depends on how much halide the fixer must
remove from the film. Its less where a lot of the halide has
been developed into metallic silver. The capacity is also
affected by Iodides and other materials which leach out of
the film, but its mostly limited by the amount of silver
dissolved in the fixer.
The effectiveness of the fixer should be tested directly
by using a sulfide test on the film or on a sample of paper
processed through the system. One can also test for
dissolved silver by using a solution of Potassium Iodide.
This will precipitate some of the dissolved silver in the
hypo sample. If a could forms and does not redissolve in a
couple of seconds the fixer should be discarded. The Sulfide
test on the emulsion is a better test since it measures the
amount of halide left in the emulsion and its possible for
the Iodide test to indicate the fixer is still good after
its not completely fixing.
I will post the formulas for these solutions below.
Any unfixed halide, or the intermediate fixing products,
begin to change in a couple of weeks. Once this process has
begun refixing will not completely remove them.
Michael Gudzinowicz posted complete explanations of what
goes on in the fixing process to this group some years ago.
His posts are still available on Google, a name search in
this group will find them.
Test for exhausted fixer.
Kodak Fixer Test Solution FT-1
Water (at 80F or 27C) 750.0 ml
Potassium Iodide 190.0 ml
Water to make 1.0 liter

For use, to 5 drops of the test solution add 5 drops of
fixing bath and 5 drops of water. If a permanent precipitate
forms discard the fixer.
This solution will last up to 1 year in a filled, closed
bottle.
Note: This is a life time supply. I suggest making up 50 or
100 ml.

Residual Silver Halide Test
Kodak Residual Silver Test Soluton (Stock) ST-1
Water 100.0 ml
Sodium Sulfide, anhydrous (not Sulfite) 2.0 grams

Store in a small stoppered bottle for no more than 3 months.

To use dilute the above solution 1 part to 9 parts water.
Place a drop or two in a clear area of the negative or
print, preferably outside of the image area. Allow to stand
for 2 or 3 minutes and blot off. There should be no visible
stain.
Note, if not stabilized this solution will eventually
cause a yellow stain. This stain is not indicative of the
presense of halides. There is a more complex version of this
test that stabilizes the test stain so that it can be
compared with a standard using a densitometer. This more
complex version is not necessary for routine testing. For
prints I suggest processing a test strip along with the
prints for testing purposes.

I will give in addition the Kodak formula for a wash test.
This test indicates residual hypo.

Kodak Residual Hypo Test Solution HT-2

Water (deionized) 750.0 ml
28% Acetic Acid 125.0 ml
Silver Nitrate (crystals) 7.5 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

Again, this is a life time supply, make it up in 50 or 100
ml amounts.

Store the solution in an air tight bottle away from light
and excessive heat. It will last about 6 months. It will
cause black stains on hands or clothes if not removed
promptly.
To use apply a drop or two on an unexposed section of the
film or paper and allow to stand for about 2 minutes. Then
rinse the test solution off with water and blot. Even well
washed film or prints will leave a slight yellow stain.
There is a comparison chart in the Kodak book _The Kodak
Black and White Darkroom Dataguide_ Publication R-20 CAT828
9029 I believe this is still available. Kodak also used to
publish strips called Kodak Hypo Estimating Strips which had
a more complete set of comparison chips. I don't know if
this is still available.

A 1:9 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner can be used
in place of the 2% Sodium Sulfide test or residual silver
but is no longer recommended because it fails under some
conditions.


--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 02:13:12 GMT, "Richard Knoppow"
wrote:

Peter Irwin's advice about 2 bath fixing is a very good
idea. The capacity of single baths to handle tabular grain
[...]


thanks for your long post. i'm going to print it immediately and will
read it during lunch pause or this evening.

regards,
--
Gianni Rondinini (30, tanti, RA)
Nikon user - Bmw driver
http://bugbarbeq.deviantart.com

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:20:00 -0700, Tom Phillips
wrote:

One assumes your talking about T-max or some
other t-grained film? The purple stain you see

i'm sorry: i forgot to write that yes, i was talking about ilford
delta's, that are t-grained films.

slight residue after fixing but this should be
gone after using a hypo clearing wash agent. If

i've never used hypo clearing wash agent: i'm just using a wetting
agent (agepon 1+200).

not refix. As far as refixing already washed and
[...]
thiosulfate complexes by using a hypo clear before
washing. Should also wash a good 10 minutes.

i'm beginning to think that i should consider starting using a hypo
clearing...

i think that adding some more info will help you understanding what
may be my problem.
1. i develop
2. a couple of rinses with fresh water (no stop bath)
3. fixing (see later for times)
4. inford simplified washing (2 rinses with water, 1 rinse with 5
agitations, 1 rinse with 10 agitations, 1 rinse with 20 agitations);
water is very expensive and limited here, this is why i chose this way
of washing my films.
5. a couple of minutes in wetting agent, while i wash tank cap and i
prepare the developer for next rolls.

maximum capacity. IOW if you fix the first few rolls
for 6-7 minutes you would need to fix the remaining

kodak declares 2-5 minutes for tmax fix, then i usually fix the first
films about 3 minutes, the next ones 4 minutes, the following ones 5
minutes. i have seen that after 6 120 rolls of delta's, tmax fix seems
to be exhausted, then i'm not going any further than this.
*but*, last two rolls already seem to be a little bit violet-ish,
sometimes, so i was worried about damages my negatives could get by
this.

you do or not its a good idea to fix these films
for 3 times the clearing time instead of the normal
recommended 2 times the clearing time for non
t-grain films.

i'll have a look at their clearing time: i had trusted in fixer
sticker instead of checking it by hand.

thanks for your reply.
--
Gianni Rondinini (30, tanti, RA)
Nikon user - Bmw driver
http://bugbarbeq.deviantart.com

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:17:08 +0000 (UTC), Peter Irwin
wrote:

I wouldn't worry too much about a bit of the dye remaining
in the film, but I would suggest moving to a two bath system.
[...]

you're not the first that suggests this, then i'll do it.
thanks also for the explanation of what a 2 bath system is: i've read
about people that uses it, but never read what it exactly is.

bath is always pretty fresh. You could also use fresh fix
every time, which wouldn't be as economical but would give
you the same assurance.

i try to exhaust the fixer both for a reason of economy and pollution.
i mean, if i throw away half a liter of fixer every roll or every 5
rolls, chances are that i pollute less. i feel better with myself in
the latter case

"one" and "two." Use the fixer from bottle one for four
[...]

ok, i got it.

I get around 40 rolls per gallon from Kodak Fixer. I think this

that's good. with tmax fix i don't get as many.
i think i'll go once more with tmax fix because it's easy to find here
in italy. an alternative would be ornano st-205 (an italian brand),
but i'm never able to use 100% of the bottle because, even if in a
tightly closed non-filled bottle, it deposits "salts" at the bottom of
the bottle quite quickly.

somewhat more than this from rapid fixer. My bottles hold
around 600ml. I get 10-12 rolls from from a fresh first bath,

mine too. i have 600ml glass bottles that perhaps i'll replace with
600 and 1000ml plastic bottles with wider... ehm... where you remove
the cap
those are far easier to clean and wash after use.

bath. If I am shooting a lot of Pan-F the fixer capacity seems
higher than this, if I am using a lot of Tmax-100 the fixer
capacity is less. Fixer is cheap, so if in doubt, change fixing

good. i use pan-f/fp4+ and delta 100/400, then results should be
comparable as numbers.

It may do some good to refix film if it has been less than
a couple weeks since they were fixed, but I wouldn't worry

ok, i may give them another fix, in case.
the important is that my negatives didn't get damaged by such a
fixing.

too much about a bit of pink dye. It doesn't sound like
you have been seriously overworking your fixer.

ok, thanks.
indeed, the pink/violet dye is *very* light, so light that i could
notice it only when i took a negative and put it, on a white paper,
next to a "perfect" one, which allowed me to see that the other one
had this dye.

i'll, perhaps, fix my negatives with longer times and a slightly
higher temperature in the future.

regards,
--
Gianni Rondinini (30, tanti, RA)
Nikon user - Bmw driver
http://bugbarbeq.deviantart.com

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:24:07 +0100, Gianni
Rondinini wrote:

i try to exhaust the fixer both for a reason of economy and pollution.
i mean, if i throw away half a liter of fixer every roll or every 5
rolls, chances are that i pollute less. i feel better with myself in
the latter case


February 7, 2006, from Lloyd Erlick,

This is not strictly true. Fixer components
themselves are not particularly bad
substances, so dumping unused fixer would not
be much of an environmental problem.

Silver compounds in the fixer are the
problem. Thus, the more film or paper that is
fixed, the worse the fixer would be as an
environmental effluent. The size of the
problem of fixer/silver effluent is directly
related to the amount of photosensitive
material used.

I have a few articles on my website -
heylloyd.com - that might be of interest.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email:
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________
--

Gianni Rondinini wrote:

you're not the first that suggests this, then i'll do it.
thanks also for the explanation of what a 2 bath system is: i've read
about people that uses it, but never read what it exactly is.

I'm glad if my description helped. I've been doing it for the
last few years, and it seems natural to me now, but before
I started doing it it sounded like a lot of extra work.
It isn't.

i try to exhaust the fixer both for a reason of economy and pollution.
i mean, if i throw away half a liter of fixer every roll or every 5
rolls, chances are that i pollute less. i feel better with myself in
the latter case

Fresh fixer by itself is (AFAIK) not particularly toxic or
bad for the environment. I wouldn't recommend drinking it
without a good medical reason, but from what I understand
it would be unlikely to do you lasting harm. Used fixer
contains silver which is toxic and an environmental problem.
I confess that I pour mine down the drain, and I probably
should investigate where to take my spent fixer so that
someone can extract the silver for re-use. You might try
asking at photographic shops if there is a place for you
to take spent fixer.

Severely overworking the first fixing bath is not a good
idea because it just shifts most of the work to the second
bath and the whole point of the two bath approach is to
keep the second bath fairly fresh.

Richard Knoppow has posted the proper way of checking
the activity of fixer. Another method which is probably
not quite as good is to check the amount of time it
takes to "clear" a negative. An unfixed negative has
a milky white emulsion which becomes clear in the
fixer. Fixing is only half done when the negative
clears. To test clearing time with a piece of scrap
film you should first soak the film in water for a
few minutes, then put the film in the fixer and measure
the time until the negative becomes clear. It is important
that the film should be wet before it is put in the
fixer for testing. Traditionally fixer is said to be
exhausted when the clearing time is double what it is
in fresh fixer, it is probably better to play it safe
and stop using the first bath when clearing time is one
and a half times the clearing time for fresh fixer.

Total fixing time should be at least twice the clearing
time, and it is probably safer to aim for three times
the clearing time. It is possible to "overfix" films
and bleach the image, but this seems to take a _very_
long time to happen to any noticeable extent, so it
shouldn't be a big worry.

Peter
--