Light source for Pyro negs

Robert Vervoordt wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 05:15:39 GMT, Gregory W Blank
wrote:

It's impossible. The amount
of development that works with VC paper is rather high; the amount
that works well with graded is rather lower.

Once again the HMS Nutcase.

Is "Blatently Incorrect".

If anything the complete opposite and
even that is subject to the intended grade of paper one is making the
negative for. If one is making the negative for grade two it works for
either....., and even "IF" the papers are somewhat subtley different that
difference is easily adjusted on the VC paper type.

Since you're responding to the nameless one, did you not also notice
his embrace of a variation in development in this thread?

HUH? What I was saying was that using pyro, a different degree of
development would be required to give the same result using graded
paper and VC paper. That is not asvocating variable film development
to adjust for scene brightness range.

Inconsistent?! Ahh, the hobgoblin of small minds. I myself have
dabbled in inconsistentcy quite often. Then again, I do admit it.


Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Gregory W Blank wrote in message news:%9dqd.2409$wr6.57@trnddc04...

Look, dumbass:

You do.

As stated Blatently incorrect.
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in message ...
Uranium Committee wrote:

(Ken Smith) wrote in message . com...

Why does Mr. Gainer say the stain adds contrast when the only reason I
use it is to lower the contrast, i.e. hold highlight tones?


That's the wrong reason to use pyro. The better reason is to ADD
density, using graded paper. You must adjust the development time
downward to allow for that. You CANNOT make a pyro negative that will
print ideally on both graded and VC paper. It's impossible. The amount
of development that works with VC paper is rather high; the amount
that works well with graded is rather lower.


No, No, No. You did not understand my post from August 16, 2004 when you were
still Michael Scarpitti. Here it is again:

Michael,


Please stop misleading readers. I trust you are not doing
it knowingly, but the effect is just the same.


Graded paper is sensitive to blue light with a very small
range of sensitivity in the green spectrum. Using a pyro
negative with graded paper will not affect the final image,
other than, perhaps, by extending slightly exposure time,
since green light has little to no affect on the graded
paper. You may have noticed that one does not use yellow or
magenta filters with graded paper. Does one?

The stain is seen as density by the blue-sensitive graded paper. Do
you understand that or not? The stain ABSORBS blue light, just as
silver does. Silver absorbs ALL colors of light, but to a
blue-sensitive paper, the stain and the silver are BOTH density.

On the other hand, variable contrast paper is made so as to
be sensitive to both blue and green light.

That's right, and that's why the stain is less useful: it doesn't
block green light as much as silver does. It passes a lot of green
light.

That is why
yellow and magenta filters are used. The blue light
produces high contrast images. The green light produces low
contrast images. Yellow filters block blue light, thus
producing a low contrast image from the green light.
Magenta filters block green light, thus producing a high
contrast image from the blue light. Any of this sound familiar?

Yes, but you obviously have no clue on how this relates to pyro
negatives.

The yellow stain on a pyro negative acts as a variable
density yellow filter.

Agreed, more or less.

In the shadow regions, the addition
of the yellow stain raises the values by close to one zone,
making shadows more defined.

The stain is very minimal in the shadow regions. The stain is
proportional to the silver density, so it is like an intenifier WHEN
USED WITH GRADED PAPER. There is no appreciable effect in shadow
areas, because there is no appreciable stain in shadow areas.

As the stain is proportionally
denser in the highlights than in the shadows, the highlights
are simultaneously kept from being blown out, so that more
detail is observable in the highlight regions as well.

No. The contrast is lowered as the density is increased. Whether the
highlights are 'blown out' depends on the overall amount of
development.

IF YOU'RE USING PYRO TO CONTROL HIGHLIGHT CONTRAST, YOU'RE USING IT
FOR THE WRONG REASON. THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO CONTROL HIGHLIGHT
CONTRAST, AND PYRO BENEFITS THE USER OF GRADED PAPER MORE THAN THE
USER OF VC PAPER.

Is that clear?

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:42:34 GMT, Gregory W Blank
wrote:

In article ,
Robert Vervoordt wrote:

Since you're responding to the nameless one, did you not also notice
his embrace of a variation in development in this thread?
Inconsistent?! Ahh, the hobgoblin of small minds. I myself have
dabbled in inconsistentcy quite often. Then again, I do admit it.

I was responding to the assertation,versus the nameless anything ;-)

Oh, well. Never mind.

TNO will be answering here with his excuses that prove that he never
meant what seemed to be said, or that he said something else, or ...

You get the idea.

I should have ignored it, too.



Robert Vervoordt, MFA

Gregory W Blank wrote in message news:Fcrqd.3811$6o5.216@trnddc08...
Gregory W Blank wrote in message news:%9dqd.2409$wr6.57@trnddc04...

Look, dumbass:

You do.

As stated Blatently incorrect.

Obviously, physics and chemistry are not anything that matters to you

Imbecile!.

Blue-sensitive paper DOES NOT SEE GREEN!

Is there something wrong with your brain, or don't you read English?

Graded paper IS NOT sensitive to green! This means the stain ADDS
density for graded paper. VC paper DOES see green. This means the
stain passes light to which the apper is sensitive.

Imbecile!.

YAWN.
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

Comments interleaved.

Uranium Committee wrote:

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in message ...

Uranium Committee wrote:


(Ken Smith) wrote in message . com...


Why does Mr. Gainer say the stain adds contrast when the only reason I
use it is to lower the contrast, i.e. hold highlight tones?


That's the wrong reason to use pyro. The better reason is to ADD
density, using graded paper. You must adjust the development time
downward to allow for that. You CANNOT make a pyro negative that will
print ideally on both graded and VC paper. It's impossible. The amount
of development that works with VC paper is rather high; the amount
that works well with graded is rather lower.


No, No, No. You did not understand my post from August 16, 2004 when you were
still Michael Scarpitti. Here it is again:

Michael,


Please stop misleading readers. I trust you are not doing
it knowingly, but the effect is just the same.


Graded paper is sensitive to blue light with a very small
range of sensitivity in the green spectrum. Using a pyro
negative with graded paper will not affect the final image,
other than, perhaps, by extending slightly exposure time,
since green light has little to no affect on the graded
paper. You may have noticed that one does not use yellow or
magenta filters with graded paper. Does one?


The stain is seen as density by the blue-sensitive graded paper. Do
you understand that or not?


That is one effect, but not the biggest or even a significant one. The yellow
stain acts as a variable density filter, and in its role as a filter the yellow
blocks the transmission of much of the blue light, its complementary color.
That reduces significantly the activation of blue sensitive paper or blue
sensitive elements of a VC paper.


The stain ABSORBS blue light,

"Blocks" is more accurate.

just as
silver does. Silver absorbs ALL colors of light, but to a
blue-sensitive paper, the stain and the silver are BOTH density.


See above. Density is not the biggest element.

On the other hand, variable contrast paper is made so as to
be sensitive to both blue and green light.


That's right, and that's why the stain is less useful: it doesn't
block green light as much as silver does. It passes a lot of green
light.

But that is what it is intended to do. That is how it reduces contrast, since
the green light sensitive elements of the paper are what provide the low
contrast effects in VC paper.


That is why
yellow and magenta filters are used. The blue light
produces high contrast images. The green light produces low
contrast images. Yellow filters block blue light, thus
producing a low contrast image from the green light.
Magenta filters block green light, thus producing a high
contrast image from the blue light. Any of this sound familiar?


Yes, but you obviously have no clue on how this relates to pyro
negatives.



I have been using PMK now regularly for about five years. Month in and month
out. How much use of the process have you made.


The yellow stain on a pyro negative acts as a variable
density yellow filter.


Agreed, more or less.


In the shadow regions, the addition
of the yellow stain raises the values by close to one zone,
making shadows more defined.


The stain is very minimal in the shadow regions. The stain is
proportional to the silver density, so it is like an intenifier WHEN
USED WITH GRADED PAPER.

Intensifying what?

There is no appreciable effect in shadow
areas, because there is no appreciable stain in shadow areas.


As the stain is proportionally
denser in the highlights than in the shadows, the highlights
are simultaneously kept from being blown out, so that more
detail is observable in the highlight regions as well.


No. The contrast is lowered as the density is increased.

That's what I said.

Whether the
highlights are 'blown out' depends on the overall amount of
development.

Too simplistic. If the Subject Brightness Ratio exceeds 9 zones, for instance,
then the highlights may be blown out on the negative before you start. Reduced
development may be one response to a high SBR, but it need not be the only one.
The use of Pyro is another. If it were not for the presence of the yellow
stain, certain highlights might be blown out when printed. The presence of the
stain prevents that from happening.


IF YOU'RE USING PYRO TO CONTROL HIGHLIGHT CONTRAST, YOU'RE USING IT
FOR THE WRONG REASON.

Perhaps, if one were always using sheet film and always individually processed
each sheet, what you say might be right; but where roll film (120 or 135) is
involved and individual processing is not possible, the use of pyro may help
compensate for the inability to achieve individual treatment of negatives.

THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO CONTROL HIGHLIGHT
CONTRAST, AND PYRO BENEFITS THE USER OF GRADED PAPER MORE THAN THE
USER OF VC PAPER.

Is that clear?

No.


Francis A. Miniter

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in message ...
Comments interleaved.

Uranium Committee wrote:

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in message ...

Uranium Committee wrote:


(Ken Smith) wrote in message . com...


Why does Mr. Gainer say the stain adds contrast when the only reason I
use it is to lower the contrast, i.e. hold highlight tones?


That's the wrong reason to use pyro. The better reason is to ADD
density, using graded paper. You must adjust the development time
downward to allow for that. You CANNOT make a pyro negative that will
print ideally on both graded and VC paper. It's impossible. The amount
of development that works with VC paper is rather high; the amount
that works well with graded is rather lower.


No, No, No. You did not understand my post from August 16, 2004 when you were
still Michael Scarpitti. Here it is again:

Michael,


Please stop misleading readers. I trust you are not doing
it knowingly, but the effect is just the same.


Graded paper is sensitive to blue light with a very small
range of sensitivity in the green spectrum. Using a pyro
negative with graded paper will not affect the final image,
other than, perhaps, by extending slightly exposure time,
since green light has little to no affect on the graded
paper. You may have noticed that one does not use yellow or
magenta filters with graded paper. Does one?


The stain is seen as density by the blue-sensitive graded paper. Do
you understand that or not?


That is one effect, but not the biggest or even a significant one.

So, for 150 years, the people have been using pyro and blue-sensitive
papers successfully are deluded? You are denser than I thought.


The yellow
stain acts as a variable density filter, and in its role as a filter the yellow
blocks the transmission of much of the blue light, its complementary color.
That reduces significantly the activation of blue sensitive paper or blue
sensitive elements of a VC paper.


VC papers have three layers of similar contrast. All three are of
course sensitive to blue. Blue light activates all three layers,
giving the most contrast.

The second layer has moderate green sensitivity in addition to blue.

The third layer has considerable green sensitivity.

By controlling the ratio of blue to green light, one is able to
control how many layers are activated. With green light, only one
layer or two is activated.

The stain ABSORBS blue light,

"Blocks" is more accurate.

Irrelevant distinction.

just as
silver does. Silver absorbs ALL colors of light, but to a
blue-sensitive paper, the stain and the silver are BOTH density.


See above. Density is not the biggest element.

On the other hand, variable contrast paper is made so as to
be sensitive to both blue and green light.


That's right, and that's why the stain is less useful: it doesn't
block green light as much as silver does. It passes a lot of green
light.

But that is what it is intended to do. That is how it reduces contrast, since
the green light sensitive elements of the paper are what provide the low
contrast effects in VC paper.

That is NOT 'what it is intended to do'! Are you a complete moron, or
half-moron and half imbecile? Pyro was introduced in the mid-19th
century, as the first developing agent. It has NOTHING to do with VC
paper, WHICH WAS NOT EVEN INVENTED FOR ANOTHER 100 YEARS!

That is why
yellow and magenta filters are used. The blue light
produces high contrast images. The green light produces low
contrast images. Yellow filters block blue light, thus
producing a low contrast image from the green light.
Magenta filters block green light, thus producing a high
contrast image from the blue light. Any of this sound familiar?


Yes, but you obviously have no clue on how this relates to pyro
negatives.



I have been using PMK now regularly for about five years. Month in and month
out. How much use of the process have you made.


The yellow stain on a pyro negative acts as a variable
density yellow filter.


Agreed, more or less.


In the shadow regions, the addition
of the yellow stain raises the values by close to one zone,
making shadows more defined.


The stain is very minimal in the shadow regions. The stain is
proportional to the silver density, so it is like an intenifier WHEN
USED WITH GRADED PAPER.

Intensifying what?

THE SILVER DESNITY, YOU MORON!

There is no appreciable effect in shadow
areas, because there is no appreciable stain in shadow areas.


As the stain is proportionally
denser in the highlights than in the shadows, the highlights
are simultaneously kept from being blown out, so that more
detail is observable in the highlight regions as well.


No. The contrast is lowered as the density is increased.

That's what I said.

Whether the
highlights are 'blown out' depends on the overall amount of
development.

Too simplistic. If the Subject Brightness Ratio exceeds 9 zones, for instance,
then the highlights may be blown out on the negative before you start. Reduced
development may be one response to a high SBR, but it need not be the only one.
The use of Pyro is another. If it were not for the presence of the yellow
stain, certain highlights might be blown out when printed. The presence of the
stain prevents that from happening.


IF YOU'RE USING PYRO TO CONTROL HIGHLIGHT CONTRAST, YOU'RE USING IT
FOR THE WRONG REASON.

Perhaps, if one were always using sheet film and always individually processed
each sheet, what you say might be right; but where roll film (120 or 135) is
involved and individual processing is not possible, the use of pyro may help
compensate for the inability to achieve individual treatment of negatives.

No, metol-type compensating developers are far superior to Pyro in
sharpness, speed, contrast control, and grain.


THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO CONTROL HIGHLIGHT
CONTRAST, AND PYRO BENEFITS THE USER OF GRADED PAPER MORE THAN THE
USER OF VC PAPER.

Is that clear?

No.

Then learn to read English.

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in message ...
Comments interleaved.

Uranium Committee wrote:

"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in message ...

Uranium Committee wrote:


(Ken Smith) wrote in message . com...


Why does Mr. Gainer say the stain adds contrast when the only reason I
use it is to lower the contrast, i.e. hold highlight tones?


That's the wrong reason to use pyro. The better reason is to ADD
density, using graded paper. You must adjust the development time
downward to allow for that. You CANNOT make a pyro negative that will
print ideally on both graded and VC paper. It's impossible. The amount
of development that works with VC paper is rather high; the amount
that works well with graded is rather lower.


No, No, No. You did not understand my post from August 16, 2004 when you were
still Michael Scarpitti. Here it is again:

Michael,


Please stop misleading readers. I trust you are not doing
it knowingly, but the effect is just the same.


Graded paper is sensitive to blue light with a very small
range of sensitivity in the green spectrum. Using a pyro
negative with graded paper will not affect the final image,
other than, perhaps, by extending slightly exposure time,
since green light has little to no affect on the graded
paper. You may have noticed that one does not use yellow or
magenta filters with graded paper. Does one?


The stain is seen as density by the blue-sensitive graded paper. Do
you understand that or not?


That is one effect, but not the biggest or even a significant one.

So, for 150 years, the people have been using pyro and blue-sensitive
papers successfully are deluded? You are denser than I thought.


The yellow
stain acts as a variable density filter, and in its role as a filter the yellow
blocks the transmission of much of the blue light, its complementary color.
That reduces significantly the activation of blue sensitive paper or blue
sensitive elements of a VC paper.


VC papers have three layers of similar contrast. All three are of
course sensitive to blue. Blue light activates all three layers,
giving the most contrast.

The second layer has moderate green sensitivity in addition to blue.

The third layer has considerable green sensitivity.

By controlling the ratio of blue to green light, one is able to
control how many layers are activated. With green light, only one
layer or two is activated.

The stain ABSORBS blue light,

"Blocks" is more accurate.

Irrelevant distinction.

just as
silver does. Silver absorbs ALL colors of light, but to a
blue-sensitive paper, the stain and the silver are BOTH density.


See above. Density is not the biggest element.

On the other hand, variable contrast paper is made so as to
be sensitive to both blue and green light.


That's right, and that's why the stain is less useful: it doesn't
block green light as much as silver does. It passes a lot of green
light.

But that is what it is intended to do. That is how it reduces contrast, since
the green light sensitive elements of the paper are what provide the low
contrast effects in VC paper.

That is NOT 'what it is intended to do'! Are you a complete moron, or
half-moron and half imbecile? Pyro was introduced in the mid-19th
century, as the first developing agent. It has NOTHING to do with VC
paper, WHICH WAS NOT EVEN INVENTED FOR ANOTHER 100 YEARS!

That is why
yellow and magenta filters are used. The blue light
produces high contrast images. The green light produces low
contrast images. Yellow filters block blue light, thus
producing a low contrast image from the green light.
Magenta filters block green light, thus producing a high
contrast image from the blue light. Any of this sound familiar?


Yes, but you obviously have no clue on how this relates to pyro
negatives.



I have been using PMK now regularly for about five years. Month in and month
out. How much use of the process have you made.


The yellow stain on a pyro negative acts as a variable
density yellow filter.


Agreed, more or less.


In the shadow regions, the addition
of the yellow stain raises the values by close to one zone,
making shadows more defined.


The stain is very minimal in the shadow regions. The stain is
proportional to the silver density, so it is like an intenifier WHEN
USED WITH GRADED PAPER.

Intensifying what?

THE SILVER DESNITY, YOU MORON!

There is no appreciable effect in shadow
areas, because there is no appreciable stain in shadow areas.


As the stain is proportionally
denser in the highlights than in the shadows, the highlights
are simultaneously kept from being blown out, so that more
detail is observable in the highlight regions as well.


No. The contrast is lowered as the density is increased.

That's what I said.

Whether the
highlights are 'blown out' depends on the overall amount of
development.

Too simplistic. If the Subject Brightness Ratio exceeds 9 zones, for instance,
then the highlights may be blown out on the negative before you start. Reduced
development may be one response to a high SBR, but it need not be the only one.
The use of Pyro is another. If it were not for the presence of the yellow
stain, certain highlights might be blown out when printed. The presence of the
stain prevents that from happening.


IF YOU'RE USING PYRO TO CONTROL HIGHLIGHT CONTRAST, YOU'RE USING IT
FOR THE WRONG REASON.

Perhaps, if one were always using sheet film and always individually processed
each sheet, what you say might be right; but where roll film (120 or 135) is
involved and individual processing is not possible, the use of pyro may help
compensate for the inability to achieve individual treatment of negatives.

No, metol-type compensating developers are far superior to Pyro in
sharpness, speed, contrast control, and grain.


THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO CONTROL HIGHLIGHT
CONTRAST, AND PYRO BENEFITS THE USER OF GRADED PAPER MORE THAN THE
USER OF VC PAPER.

Is that clear?

No.

Then learn to read English.

Richard Knoppow wrote:

Color heads and condenser heads are quite
suitable for Pyro negatives. Just don't expect magic. I
suspect many who rave about Pyro are getting better
negatives because they are paying more attention to
controlling all the variables.

Understood. Thanks for the detailed and interesting response. As for pyro
negs getting more attention, I see your point and agree. But maybe some of
us could use the lesson in discipline.

Cheers,
Szabo

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