The Value Of An Apology, At Least From A Republican's Perspective!!

In message , Bill Graham
writes
I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend himself
against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen people. Now, I
am worried about what I should do about it. So, I asked Chris H what he
thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him the gun to begin with."

No I say you gave a known psychopath a gun and trained him and him
friends to use it against the gang down the road. Despite being told
before you started that you were training an unstable psychopath who
would use the gun and training on friends and bad guys alike.

So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should I do? and, Chris says,
"If you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin with, you wouldn't have the
problem you have now." And, I say, "Even if that's true, I still would
like to find a way to solve the present situation.
Do you have any suggestions?"


OK so looking at history we know several things

1 you didn't listen to advice
2 you took a very short term view
3 You ignored the history of the area
4 you ignored the medical records of the psychopaths
5 You have ****ed off the whole neighbourhood by training and arming the
known psychopaths to take out the gang in the next street
6 The known psychopaths took out the gang in the next street but also
attack the good people in this street
7 Now trying to stop the known psychopaths you have killed half the good
people in the street.

Now you now want a "quick fix" shot term answer whilst not listening to
what you are told (see points 1,2,3 and 4).

Those who do not listen to history are doomed to repeat it.

And Chris says, "You Americans always do the wrong things". So this is
the logic of Chris H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or help at
all.....

See points 1,2,3,4

Until you understand how you got here you can't get out of it.

The major problem is the US perception of the situation and the problem.

--
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\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
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In message , Rol_Lei Nut Speleo_Kar
writes
Bill Graham wrote:
I loaned my neighbor a gun. I thought he would use it to defend
himself against intruders. Instead, he went out and shot a dozen
people. Now, I am worried about what I should do about it. So, I
asked Chris H what he thinks I should do. Chris says, "You loaned him
the gun to begin with." So, I say, "Yes, yes.....but now, what should
I do? and, Chris says, "If you hadn't loaned him your gun to begin
with, you wouldn't have the problem you have now." And, I say, "Even
if that's true, I still would like to find a way to solve the present
situation. Do you have any suggestions?" And Chris says, "You
Americans always do the wrong things". So this is the logic of Chris
H. It solves nothing, and is of no use or help at all.....

But before you loaned that neighbour that gun, all your friends (and,
yes, they were real friends) from around the World told you that it was
dangerous and a bad idea to loan a gun to that neighbour, giving you
very good reasons not to.

This was back in the late 1970's and 1980's

You responded by calling them cowards, renaming food items and being
generally insulting and abnoxious.

Yes that was also the case then and now.

It is little wonder that those friends are now thinking "I told you so"
and are totally convinced that it is *your* problem.

What is the problem is the US wants a quick fix to today's problem
without understanding why it got were it is. This is because it will
have to admit mistakes and listen to others and take advice on how to
get out.


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
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Bill Graham wrote:
"Savageduck" wrote in message
I was just commenting on your twisted take on history.

Yes. Well, in logic, you are very much like an American Chris H. It's very
difficult for me to carry on an intelligent discussion with anyone on this
forum

Maybe if you got an education ...

--
Ray Fischer

On 2009-10-02 09:26:24 -0700, (Ray Fischer) said:

Bill Graham wrote:
"Savageduck" wrote in message
I was just commenting on your twisted take on history.

Yes. Well, in logic, you are very much like an American Chris H. It's very
difficult for me to carry on an intelligent discussion with anyone on this
forum

Maybe if you got an education ...

It's OK Ray, he knows how to use an abacus.
He just doesn't know how to put the results into an historic context
because he didn't think that class valuable, because it was taught by
some leftist, socialist, commie, Democrat, union flag waving professor
who was stealing his money by telling him stuff he didn't want to know.

Bill would rather fabricate his own versions of history and Law, than
have to deal with historic fact and responsibility to comply with any
inconvenient Law.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

Savageduck wrote:
On 2009-10-02 09:26:24 -0700, (Ray Fischer) said:

Bill Graham wrote:
"Savageduck" wrote in message
I was just commenting on your twisted take on history.

Yes. Well, in logic, you are very much like an American Chris H. It's very
difficult for me to carry on an intelligent discussion with anyone on this
forum

Maybe if you got an education ...

It's OK Ray, he knows how to use an abacus.

I really doubt that. An abacus requires some skill to use.

He just doesn't know how to put the results into an historic context
because he didn't think that class valuable, because it was taught by
some leftist, socialist, commie, Democrat, union flag waving professor
who was stealing his money by telling him stuff he didn't want to know.

Bill would rather fabricate his own versions of history and Law, than
have to deal with historic fact and responsibility to comply with any
inconvenient Law.

Bigots cannot cope with the truth. Never have been able to cope with
the truth. What usually happens is they die off and are replaced with
people who haven't learned the old bigotries.

--
Ray Fischer

"DRS" wrote in message
. au...
"Chris H" wrote in message

In message , DRS
writes

[...]

And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world.

A rouge state? Only by the wingnuts in here.

It is not acceptable to merely
deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be
established by evidence.

Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible
evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans
did not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded.

There is genuine dispute among international jurists about the legitimacy
of the Taliban government given the state of armed resistance to it.

The "Taliban GOVERNMENT"?!

You seem to be saying that there is some question about whether the Taliban
is or is not the legitimate government there because the Afghan government
and army are showing "armed resistance to it." That certainly seems an odd
view.

"Chris H" wrote in message
...
In message , DRS
writes
"Neil Harrington" wrote in message


[...]

The Geneva Convention does not, as far as I know, offer any protection
whatever to combatants who are not part of any recognized military
force. If you think it does, show me where.

Combatants captured not in proper uniform are not POWs and have no
rights at all -- they can be and have been just executed on the spot.
That's been the rule for at least a few hundred years.

Every person has rights. Many of the detainees at Guananemo have been
shown
to have not been involved in terrorist activities and were captured by
mistake.

However the experience of several years illegal detention and torture
turned most of them and their families into at least sympathisers of Al-
Qeada.

Worse, it has gotten them used to good food and other amenities that they'll
have to do without when they go home again. I read recently that the average
Guantanamo prisoner has gained 20 pounds while there.


That is why civilised countries insist on the rule of law, where
no person may be detained without due process, something the Bush
administration fought every step of the way.

And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world.

Until they need help again, and then all is forgiven."We've changed our
minds, Americans are wonderful Send money."


It is not acceptable to merely
deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established by
evidence.

Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible
evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans did
not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded.

We "illegally invaded" whom? We have been there and are there now trying to
shore up the Afghan government itself, which admittedly seems a hopeless
task, not to mention thankless.

As far as "Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US (etc.)" is concerned,
what nonsense. What on earth makes you think the Afghan government could
have made good on any such offer? The government's support from its own
people, police and army is marginal to none.


Now I think any reasonable person would admit that a little
waterboarding is kinder and more generous treatment than being
summarily executed.

There is no such thing as "a little waterboarding". It is torture and
under
the terms of the international agreement signed by Ronald Reagan and
ratified by the US Senate America has no lawful option but to prosecute
those who engaged in it.

Agreed. The right wing in the USA sound just like the N.Koreans, Chinese
and the Israelis.

You have a very strange world view. Next time your country gets its ass in a
sling in some war, I trust you will look elsewhere for help and not across
the big pond to the country that got you through those two big ones. Or do
you suppose the *left* wing in the U.S. will rush to your aid?

On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:08:55 -0400, John A.
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Oct 2009 19:25:26 -0400, tony cooper
wrote:

On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 22:51:48 +0100, Chris H wrote:

However this was fully discussed in 2001 in UK.current-events.terrorisum

Well that's sorted, then. Nothing like a bunch of know-nothing net
kooks to set us straight on "terrorisum".

Attempting to refute his arguments with ad-hominems and pointing out
spelling errors, while a usenet staple (or, rather, cliche',) does not
do much for your side of the argument.

Just sayin'.

I don't have a side of any argument.

"Ad hominem" isn't hyphenated, by the way. Also, it is singular since
it is a style or type of argument or a rebuttal in the form of an
attack on the person. If you choose to correct me, do it properly.




--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Neil Harrington wrote:
"Chris H" wrote in message

That is why civilised countries insist on the rule of law, where
no person may be detained without due process, something the Bush
administration fought every step of the way.

And why the US is seen as a rouge stage by most of the world.

Until they need help again, and then all is forgiven."We've changed our
minds, Americans are wonderful Send money."

The world's biggest debtor, by far, is the United States.

It is not acceptable to merely
deem someone a terrorist or a criminal by fiat. It must be established by
evidence.

Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US is the USA had any credible
evidence.... the USA could not produce any evidence and the Afghans did
not turn him over. SO the USA illegally invaded.

We "illegally invaded" whom?

Afghanistan. Pay attention.

We have been there and are there now trying to
shore up the Afghan government itself,

After overthrowing the previous government.

As far as "Afghanistan offered to give OBL to the US (etc.)" is concerned,
what nonsense. What on earth makes you think the Afghan government could
have made good on any such offer?

What makes you think they the couldn't?

There is no such thing as "a little waterboarding". It is torture and
under
the terms of the international agreement signed by Ronald Reagan and
ratified by the US Senate America has no lawful option but to prosecute
those who engaged in it.

Agreed. The right wing in the USA sound just like the N.Koreans, Chinese
and the Israelis.

You have a very strange world view.

Your world view has been shown to be flat-out wrong again and again.

Next time your country gets its ass in a
sling in some war, I trust you will look elsewhere for help and not across

More of the jingoistic bigotry.

--
Ray Fischer

In message , tony cooper
writes
On Thu, 1 Oct 2009 22:51:48 +0100, Chris H wrote:

However this was fully discussed in 2001 in UK.current-events.terrorisum

Well that's sorted, then. Nothing like a bunch of know-nothing net
kooks to set us straight on "terrorisum".

See link
http://www.phaedsys.com/news/index.html

The "kooks" I spend my time with are people at the defence industry and
counter terrorist business. We get to talk to a LOT of people who know
what is going on. Not TV programs or newspapers with a political bias or
someone's conspiracy web blog let alone some losers in the pub... (if
you listened to them the SAS has a fighting strength of 10,000 :-)

Other "kooks" are friends currently serving in the UK military in Iraq
and Afghanistan, friends in some companies like Aegis etc.

We are currently supporting kit in Afghanistan and Iraq (and other
places, who mentioned Africa? You lot will hear about it later when the
news people catch up)

My own personal experiences having years of experience in the Military,
from the 1970's, Some of it on counter terrorist work and having been
to the Middle East myself and seen what Saddam can do (supported by the
USA) first hand.

This is why I have so few links. There aren't links to conversations
held here
http://www.counterterrorexpo.com/
or here
http://www.dsei.co.uk/
or here
http://www.mae-show.com/
or here
http://www.phaedsys.com/news/news0908scsc.html
(yes I was presenting to the Ministry of Defence, though Tony seems to
think he knows better than they do.... :-)
or here
http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll...n=0.097544,0.1
45569&t=h&z=13
and here
http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll...spn=0.001497,0.
002275&t=h&z=19
Or here
http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll...spn=0.011798,0.
018196&t=h&z=16
I have photos taken at these places but there is little point in posting
them all I will get is there is no proof I took them or where they are
or when they were taken.... No exif on film :-(

You are either in the loop or like most of you here out of it and just
chattering about biased media coverage or what an equally ill informed
mate said in the bar.

I use my real name and if I was making it up there are many who know me
in real life (several in this NG) who would have blown my cover if I was
making it up. Especially as I supply them with kit and advice but what
do the MoD know about Iraq and Afghanistan?

Most here calling me a "kook" don't even use real id's and email
addresses let alone have any real information other than stuff on the TV
and the web. They have no credibility at all. They do have a political
bias which clouds their view of the media they use for information to
make up for their real lack of any first hand knowledge.

Now lets get back to photography... something most of you do have some
idea about.



--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
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