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#11
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Elementary questions on film handling.
"Liopleurodon" wrote in message ... Hi all, I'm just starting out on the B&W develope and process road, and am slowly gathering the gear to start a basic darkroom. Everything I've read states that unexposed film (I'll be using B&W 35mm) needs to be handled in complete darkness, you can't even use a safelight with it. So I have to practice loading the bulk film loader and then the developing tank in complete darkness. My two questions a Has anyone found a way of not doing this in complete darkness, eg. night-vision, infra-red or special safelight filter? When handling the film, how important is it to keep your fingers off the actual film face? Obviously handling on the edges would be better, but in complete darkness with my clumsy fingers, I can imagine when loading the developing reel I'm gonna grab the film face at least once.Would this ruin that patch, or is it ok as long as the touch is light? With thanks. -- Richard "Productively wasting time" If replying directly, remove "aqua". Bulk film holders are not too difficult to load. I use the Alden 74, which is sold by most of the larger suppliers and comes with pretty good instructions. The film comes in 100 foot spools with a plastic core. Its nearly a drop in load. The film path and method of loading will be obvious when you inspect the inside in the light. Loading cassettes is simple and is done in the light, the loader has a light tight compartment. Bulk loading leaves a couple of inches of fogged film at each end. It makes no difference at the beginning of the roll since that will be fogged in loading the camera but you will loose 1 or 2 frames at the end. It is possible to avoid this by loading the cassettes in the dark but its a bother. The method of loading a developing tank depends on the tank. I use quite old stainless steel tanks which I find easier to load than plastic tanks. Load some scrap film in the light to get the feel for it. For 35mm film its necessary to cut off the tapered leader, easy with a pair of small scissors. It also sometimes helps with any type of tank to trim the corners. For SS reels the film is fastened to a clip at the center and wound onto the tank by cupping it slightly with your hand. There are loading aids which guide the film, I have a couple but never use them. I agree with those who suggest starting out with packaged film but it won't take much to get comfortable with loading the tanks. Bulk loading saves a lot in film cost. The bulk spools have a long shelf life. A 100 foot spool is approximately equivalent to 20 36 exposure rolls of 35mm film. It is sometimes useful to make up short rolls, especially for testing. The Alden loader has good instructions for using the frame counter. You will need some empty cassettes, some masking tape, and a pair of scissors. Make sure you label the loader with the type of film in it and the date it was loaded. If you load cassettes of the same length consistently its also helpful to mark a tape showing how many you have loaded. I find it very handy to have a good changing bag. You can get plain bags for not too much and also very fancy "tents" but the plain bag is good enough and not too expensive. They are also useful for dealing with jammed cameras, etc. There is not much problem with touching the film. When dealing with 35mm about the only parts of the film you will ever touch are at the ends of the spools where they are not going to be used for images anyway. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#12
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Elementary questions on film handling.
"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in message ... Gilbert wrote: Has anyone found a way of not doing this in complete darkness, eg. night-vision, infra-red or special safelight filter? Yes. Look at this thread : http://www.apug.org/forums/showthrea...night+vi sion snip Gilbert The only light that I have heard to be safe during development of panchromatic is in the following situation. When developing sheet film (don't try this with 35 mm film, it is too small to inspect properly), after the film has been in the developer bath for about 3/4 of the allotted time, you may hold it up briefly in front of a dim, dark green safelight for purposes of inspection of the degree of contrast obtained. Francis A. Miniter This is based on the fact that the dark adapted eye is most sensitive to blue-green light so the light can be the dimmest possible. Also, most panchromatic dyes have a dip at about the same color, some modern films, like T-Max, do not. The use of the light during development also counts on the fact that the emulsion is substantially desensitized by the development process. Nonetheless only very weak light can be used for a few seconds without danger of fog. That's why Kodak wants you to wait until development is three quarters done. I believe that IR light with IR goggles are used in some film manufacturing plants, mainly for trouble shooting. Most panchromatic films have little or no IR sensitivity. This is really not practical for home use. The first film I ever developed, some 55 years ago, was orthochromatic, probably the old Verichrome. It was done under a "ruby lamp" a small red light bulb. Those starting out now will never know the thrill of seeing the image come up on the film (it seemed to take forever) because there is little ortho film made now. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#13
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Elementary questions on film handling.
To all,
Many thanks for all your replies, been informative reading them all. My main reasons for using a bulk film loader a The ease of opening the cassettes and extracting the film for the developing tank. I've read and looked and knowing how I best deal with things, I know I'll waste more film practicing opening a commercial canister and extracting the film off the spool, then if I already know how it's attached and so on with a bulk film loaded canister. Summary- If it's something I've already put together, it'll be easier for me to take apart in the dark. When first developing film, I can use 10 or 15 exposure lengths, using less film than a 24 or 36 commercial can, as I learn the best develop, stop, fix times etc. My main concern regarding fingerprints as been allayed now, I initially thought the film had to manually pushed onto the spiral all the way by hand, I now see that once the end has been inserted, you just twist the reel ends back and forth and it drags the rest of the film in itself. I'll pop into a couple of local shops later and see about obtaining some cheap out of date film to practice with. Once again, many thanks to all who took the time to reply, much appreciated. -- Richard "Productively wasting time" If replying directly, remove "aqua". |
#14
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Elementary questions on film handling.
Liopleurodon a écrit :
To all, Many thanks for all your replies, been informative reading them all. My main reasons for using a bulk film loader a The ease of opening the cassettes and extracting the film for the developing tank. I've read and looked and knowing how I best deal with things, I know I'll waste more film practicing opening a commercial canister and extracting the film off the spool, then if I already know how it's attached and so on with a bulk film loaded canister. Summary- If it's something I've already put together, it'll be easier for me to take apart in the dark. I *never* open a canister, I always felt unconfortable with a full 135-36 film (more than 1.60m or 5 feet and a half) unloading down to the ground ... I just retrieve the film leader (there are specific cheap tools for this, look at B&H or Adorama under "film leader retriever"), cut the leader and make a small champfer on the film's corner. All this done in daylight. Then, in the dark, I load the reel by extracting from canister/loading on reel 10-20cm (4-8") per time until I reach the end of the film. At the end, you just cut the film close to the canister and that's it. Some will probably tell you this way the film passes twice on the felt and may be scratched, but in more than 25 years, it never happened to me. When first developing film, I can use 10 or 15 exposure lengths, using less film than a 24 or 36 commercial can, as I learn the best develop, stop, fix times etc. My main concern regarding fingerprints as been allayed now, I initially thought the film had to manually pushed onto the spiral all the way by hand, I now see that once the end has been inserted, you just twist the reel ends back and forth and it drags the rest of the film in itself. In 35mm, films are rigid enough that I just push them in the reel by hand (holding them by the edges) without needing to move alternatively the flanges of the reel. All you need is clean, dry reels and dry hands. Its mainly moisture on the gelatin side that makes the film difficult to load. You can use an hairdryer to remove any moisture before loading. I'll pop into a couple of local shops later and see about obtaining some cheap out of date film to practice with. Just buy the cheapest 135-36 roll film available. You need the 36 exposures as, usually, it's the last part of the film to be difficult to load. Once again, many thanks to all who took the time to reply, much appreciated. Have a nice start, -- Claudio Bonavolta http://www.bonavolta.ch |
#15
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Elementary questions on film handling.
In article ,
Rob Novak writes: I personally find Paterson/JOBO-type plastic spiral reels (where you crank opposite sides to load the film in) easier to load than stainless ones - it's way too easy to misload the metal versions if you're not careful. Once the plastic spirals are started, it's almost impossible to misload them. This is definitely a matter of personal preference. My own is the opposite of yours. Although plastic reels are easy to get started, in my experience they usually develop increasing friction as you move past about half of the roll, and on occasion this friction is so great that I've been unable to get the film on entirely. I've tried all sorts of things to get past this problem (being extra careful about drying the reels, trimming the leading edge in a curve, etc.), but I've never really licked the problem. Maybe it's humidity in the room or some unusual wear pattern on my reels (I've used both Paterson and AP). I readily admit that not everybody has this problem, but a Web search will turn up other similar reports, so I'm certainly not alone. My Hewes stainless steel reels, by comparison, are a breeze to load. The only tricky part is getting the film hooked on the sprockets at the center of the reel to begin, and that's not all THAT hard. A big caveat, though: I'm talking about new Hewes reels, which use sprockets to center the film; most stainless steel reels use clips, which are trickier to use. Also, if a reel is dropped or otherwise abused, it may get bent out of shape, which will mess things up completely. I've got a couple of generic used stainless steel reels that are almost impossible to load correctly. -- Rod Smith, http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking |
#16
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Elementary questions on film handling.
In article ,
"Liopleurodon" writes: My main reasons for using a bulk film loader a The ease of opening the cassettes and extracting the film for the developing tank. I've read and looked and knowing how I best deal with things, I know I'll waste more film practicing opening a commercial canister and extracting the film off the spool, then if I already know how it's attached and so on with a bulk film loaded canister. Summary- If it's something I've already put together, it'll be easier for me to take apart in the dark. Getting film out of a cartridge isn't like opening a computer and adjusting hard drive jumpers; light is not required, or even all that helpful. Two approaches are common: 1) In the light, use a film leader retriever (they're inexpensive) to pull the leader out of the catridge. Alternatively, if you've got a manual-rewind camera, don't rewind the film all the way -- just enough to get it off the takeup spool but not fully rewound into the cartridge. Either way, this leaves you with an exposed leader, which you can trim. You then turn off the lights and load it onto the developing spool without opening the film cartridge. When you've pulled out all the film, cut it at the end. This approach has the advantage that it minimizes the risk of your touching the emulsion or getting the film dirty if you drop it. If you bulk load some, but not all, of your film, you can re-use the commercial cassettes by taping your bulk film to the stub of film that remains on the commercial cassette. This method of developing reel loading has the disadvantage that if there's any dust in the felt trap, it can cause scratches on the film. 2) In the dark, use a bottle opener to pry off one end of the film can, remove the film spool, trim the leader, and load the film onto the developing spool. When you reach the end, cut the film. The bottle opener can be the type you'd have in your kitchen or a special opener made specifically for film cartridges. I've used the bottle opener attachement on a pocket knife without problems. This approach has the advantages of not needing a film leader retriever and of minimizing the risk of scratches because of dust in the film cartridge's felt light trap. It has the disadvantages of greater risk of fingerprints or other contamination on the emulsion and of essentially destroying the film cartridge, so it can't be re-used for future bulk loading. Neither approach is particularly difficult. When using bulk-load cassettes, you'd probably use a minor variant of #2, in which you unscrew or pull off the cap of the cartridge without the help of a bottle opener. The bulk cartridge can then be re-used. Overall, learning to use the bulk loader will probably be harder than learning to unload a commercial cartridge onto a developing reel. This isn't to say that bulk loading isn't worthwhile. I bulk load most of my B&W film. I do it for the cost savings, though, not to simplify loading my developing reels; that simply isn't an issue. When first developing film, I can use 10 or 15 exposure lengths, using less film than a 24 or 36 commercial can, as I learn the best develop, stop, fix times etc. Be aware that you're more likely to see surge marks and other developing artifacts with very short rolls. I've not noticed any problems with 24-exposure rolls, but when you get down to under 10 exposures or so, development may become uneven. This can make judging the proper development times difficult. My main concern regarding fingerprints as been allayed now, I initially thought the film had to manually pushed onto the spiral all the way by hand, I now see that once the end has been inserted, you just twist the reel ends back and forth and it drags the rest of the film in itself. With plastic reels, yes. Stainless steel reels are loaded from the inside out. You touch the edges of the film to guide it into the reel. Either way, touching the emulsion is unnecessary (with the possible exception of a bit at the beginning), but can happen by accident, particularly if you remove the film spool from its cartridge. -- Rod Smith, http://www.rodsbooks.com Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking |
#17
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Elementary questions on film handling.
"Rod Smith" wrote in message
news Be aware that you're more likely to see surge marks and other developing artifacts with very short rolls. I've not noticed any problems with 24-exposure rolls, but when you get down to under 10 exposures or so, development may become uneven. This can make judging the proper development times difficult. This is why I feel talking to people is important, the books don't mention this. What causes this? I would have thought there was more danger of developer not getting round all the film with the reel fully loaded with say 36ex because of less space, than with a 10ex? -- Richard "Productively wasting time" If replying directly, remove "aqua". ----- |
#18
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Elementary questions on film handling.
Rod Smith wrote:
In article , Rob Novak writes: I personally find Paterson/JOBO-type plastic spiral reels (where you crank opposite sides to load the film in) easier to load than stainless ones - it's way too easy to misload the metal versions if you're not careful. Once the plastic spirals are started, it's almost impossible to misload them. This is definitely a matter of personal preference. My own is the opposite of yours. Although plastic reels are easy to get started, in my experience they usually develop increasing friction as you move past about half of the roll, and on occasion this friction is so great that I've been unable to get the film on entirely. I've tried all sorts of things to get past this problem (being extra careful about drying the reels, trimming the leading edge in a curve, etc.), but I've never really licked the problem. Maybe it's humidity in the room or some unusual wear pattern on my reels (I've used both Paterson and AP). I readily admit that not everybody has this problem, but a Web search will turn up other similar reports, so I'm certainly not alone. My Hewes stainless steel reels, by comparison, are a breeze to load. The only tricky part is getting the film hooked on the sprockets at the center of the reel to begin, and that's not all THAT hard. A big caveat, though: I'm talking about new Hewes reels, which use sprockets to center the film; most stainless steel reels use clips, which are trickier to use. Also, if a reel is dropped or otherwise abused, it may get bent out of shape, which will mess things up completely. I've got a couple of generic used stainless steel reels that are almost impossible to load correctly. I presently use Jobo 2500 series plastic reels, and they work most of the time, but sometimes I must remove the film and start over because it just will not go in. On good days, I can just push the film in without wiggling the sides. The easiest SS reels to use I ever found were the Honeywell Nikor reels. These have no clip or anything. You just center the film the best you can in the gap in the core and load the thing. I have a clip in the 120 size reel, and that is more problematical because if you get the film in wrong, it will never load right. Fortunately I hardly ever shoot 120. (If I have to take a tripod and camera out there, might as well use the 4x5. -- .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642. /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939. /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org ^^-^^ 14:25:00 up 27 days, 13:48, 5 users, load average: 4.40, 4.29, 4.17 |
#19
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Elementary questions on film handling.
"Liopleurodon" wrote in message ... "Rod Smith" wrote in message news Be aware that you're more likely to see surge marks and other developing artifacts with very short rolls. I've not noticed any problems with 24-exposure rolls, but when you get down to under 10 exposures or so, development may become uneven. This can make judging the proper development times difficult. This is why I feel talking to people is important, the books don't mention this. What causes this? I would have thought there was more danger of developer not getting round all the film with the reel fully loaded with say 36ex because of less space, than with a 10ex? -- Richard "Productively wasting time" If replying directly, remove "aqua". ----- I think the problem here is due to excessive turbulance when agitating. I must say that I use short rolls to test cameras and have not had this difficulty but it probably depends on the tank and method of agitation. Short rolls are sometimes useful but waste film because there is a certain amount of film used up for leaders and lost at the end and that stays the same regardless of length. Again, the bulk loader is simple to use and tanks just take some practice, which you can do in the light. A note about cassettes: Kodak cassettes have crimped tops which can not be removed without damage (a bottle opener takes them off). Most other cassettes have tops which will pop off when pressure is put on the long end of the spool. They pop back on when reloading by compressing the cassette sides a little. Kodak did this to prevent bulk loaders from selling film with Kodak labels on it. The cassettes can be reused by using a film retriever, as others have mentioned, and cutting off the film so that there is a little tongue of film left to which the new film can be taped. Empty cassettes for bulk loading are available from large photo suppliers like Calumet, Freestyle, B&H, etc.;they are cheap and can be reused many times. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
#20
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Elementary questions on film handling.
The sharp end of a "church key" (older readers will know what I mean!) type
can opener works better than a bottle opener. The hook that grips the edge of the cassette lid has a better shape (you can round over the pointy piece with a file or grinder a bit).. You can still find them in housewares or check in sporting goods for a stainless steel model that won't rust. And as far as the loading bit I always tell people that after the first thousand rolls or so they'll have a lot more confidence. It just takes a little practice (but I still managed to screw up the first roll I loaded on a stainless steel reel). -- darkroommike ---------- "Richard Knoppow" wrote in message k.net... "Liopleurodon" wrote in message ... "Rod Smith" wrote in message news Be aware that you're more likely to see surge marks and other developing artifacts with very short rolls. I've not noticed any problems with 24-exposure rolls, but when you get down to under 10 exposures or so, development may become uneven. This can make judging the proper development times difficult. This is why I feel talking to people is important, the books don't mention this. What causes this? I would have thought there was more danger of developer not getting round all the film with the reel fully loaded with say 36ex because of less space, than with a 10ex? -- Richard "Productively wasting time" If replying directly, remove "aqua". ----- I think the problem here is due to excessive turbulance when agitating. I must say that I use short rolls to test cameras and have not had this difficulty but it probably depends on the tank and method of agitation. Short rolls are sometimes useful but waste film because there is a certain amount of film used up for leaders and lost at the end and that stays the same regardless of length. Again, the bulk loader is simple to use and tanks just take some practice, which you can do in the light. A note about cassettes: Kodak cassettes have crimped tops which can not be removed without damage (a bottle opener takes them off). Most other cassettes have tops which will pop off when pressure is put on the long end of the spool. They pop back on when reloading by compressing the cassette sides a little. Kodak did this to prevent bulk loaders from selling film with Kodak labels on it. The cassettes can be reused by using a film retriever, as others have mentioned, and cutting off the film so that there is a little tongue of film left to which the new film can be taped. Empty cassettes for bulk loading are available from large photo suppliers like Calumet, Freestyle, B&H, etc.;they are cheap and can be reused many times. -- --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA |
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