Musings on washing fiber-based prints

Gregory Blank wrote:
In article ,
LR Kalajainen wrote:


It takes at least 24 hours of soaking before the brighteners begin to
wash out. In prints left in water overnight from, say, 11 pm until 8
am, the brighteners aren't affected--- at least I've not been able to
tell any difference visually.


If you measure the Dmax, I can almost bet it will drop
by at least .15 by soaking that long,

Why would that be? I cannot believe water would dissolve out the silver.

....maybe not an issue as
Tom Phillips previously stated regarding Glossy papers but
Semi matte papers start out farther down the scale so a .15 drop is
apparent to my eye with regard to them.



--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 22:20:00 up 46 days, 6:37, 3 users, load average: 4.06, 4.14, 4.15

Jean-David Beyer wrote:
LR Kalajainen wrote:
It takes at least 24 hours of soaking before the brighteners begin
to
wash out. In prints left in water overnight from, say, 11 pm until
8
am, the brighteners aren't affected--- at least I've not been able
to
tell any difference visually.

Brighteners begin to wash out right away, ...


Just as well. The sooner they wash out the better. I recall
reading that the brightener titanium dioxide contributes to
peroxide production with attendent image degradation.
I think whiteners are more used with RC papers. To easy to
measure loss of whiteners for there to be any question. Dan

No, I haven't read Henry's paper. I'll look for it.

I suspect that different manufacturers' papers act differently. I use
Agfa MCC 111 and Ilford Warmtone glossy (occasional forays into Bergger)
almost exclusively, and haven't had a problem. The temperature of
standing water left in my darkroom after I'm finished remains at about
70 degrees when the outdoor temp is above 70 and at about 63 degrees
when the outdoor temp is below 70. Hot water pipes running through the
ceiling to other parts of the house keep the temp within a fairly
limited range.

Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me, but when I take the prints out
of the wash (even after an overnight soaking) and dry them on screens,
they look the way I remember them looking after printing, except for the
dry-down effect which I allow for. If brighteners begin to wash out at
the rate of 30% in the first half hour as you suggest, then any washing
method that's adequate is going to lose some brighteners. Makes me
wonder just how important they are or whether the manufacturers build in
a margin of superfluity.

Jean-David Beyer wrote:

LR Kalajainen wrote:

It takes at least 24 hours of soaking before the brighteners begin to
wash out. In prints left in water overnight from, say, 11 pm until 8
am, the brighteners aren't affected--- at least I've not been able to
tell any difference visually.


Well, you have not read the rearch of Dr. Richard Joseph Henry who
tested various papers for brighteners being washed out. In his book,
"Controls in Black and White Photography", second edition, pages
105-112, he shows graphs of brightener remaining vs. washing time for
Brovira grade 3 and Ilfobrom grade 2, paper that had been fixed in
either F24 (no hardener), or Kodafix (hardener). Whether the fixer
contained a hardener did not make much difference.

Brighteners begin to wash out right away, 30% or so in the first 1/2
hour. For Ilfobrom, 50% of the brightener was washed out in less than
two hours, where it took about 12 hours to wash half the brightener
from Brovira. He later tested Ilford Galerie using Ilford's
recommended processing, Galerie's fluorescence was about 23% less than
that of Ilfobrom. So the problem is quite real.


Jean-David Beyer wrote:

LR Kalajainen wrote:

Still water washing with several changes of water and shuffling
over several hours works just fine for FB prints; been doing it for
years. I once forgot and left them in for three days and that
soaked off the emulsion, but I when I'm finishing a print session
just before bedtime, I frequently leave them in overnight with no
ill effects at all.

Other than washing out the brighteners, I assume you meant.

wrote:
Jean-David Beyer wrote:

LR Kalajainen wrote:

It takes at least 24 hours of soaking before the brighteners begin

to

wash out. In prints left in water overnight from, say, 11 pm until


8

am, the brighteners aren't affected--- at least I've not been able

to

tell any difference visually.


Brighteners begin to wash out right away, ...



Just as well. The sooner they wash out the better. I recall reading
that the brightener titanium dioxide contributes to peroxide production
with attendent image degradation. I think whiteners are more used with
RC papers. To easy to measure loss of whiteners for there to be any
question. Dan

As far as I know, the only B&W paper without brighteners is Kodabromide,
and I do not know if it is made anymore.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 07:30:00 up 46 days, 15:47, 3 users, load average: 4.32, 4.28, 4.15

LR Kalajainen wrote:
No, I haven't read Henry's paper. I'll look for it.

I suspect that different manufacturers' papers act differently. I use
Agfa MCC 111 and Ilford Warmtone glossy (occasional forays into Bergger)
almost exclusively, and haven't had a problem. The temperature of
standing water left in my darkroom after I'm finished remains at about
70 degrees when the outdoor temp is above 70 and at about 63 degrees
when the outdoor temp is below 70. Hot water pipes running through the
ceiling to other parts of the house keep the temp within a fairly
limited range.

Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me,

Eyes are remarkably good at playing tricks like that. That is why Dr.
Henry used a reflectance photometer composed of a long wave ultraviolet
lamp, and a Corning 3-73 filter over the detector to minimize overlap
between the activation and fluorescent energies.

but when I take the prints out
of the wash (even after an overnight soaking) and dry them on screens,
they look the way I remember them looking after printing, except for the
dry-down effect which I allow for. If brighteners begin to wash out at
the rate of 30% in the first half hour as you suggest, then any washing
method that's adequate is going to lose some brighteners. Makes me
wonder just how important they are or whether the manufacturers build in
a margin of superfluity.

Jean-David Beyer wrote:

LR Kalajainen wrote:

It takes at least 24 hours of soaking before the brighteners begin to
wash out. In prints left in water overnight from, say, 11 pm until 8
am, the brighteners aren't affected--- at least I've not been able to
tell any difference visually.



Well, you have not read the rearch of Dr. Richard Joseph Henry who
tested various papers for brighteners being washed out. In his book,
"Controls in Black and White Photography", second edition, pages
105-112, he shows graphs of brightener remaining vs. washing time for
Brovira grade 3 and Ilfobrom grade 2, paper that had been fixed in
either F24 (no hardener), or Kodafix (hardener). Whether the fixer
contained a hardener did not make much difference.

Brighteners begin to wash out right away, 30% or so in the first 1/2
hour. For Ilfobrom, 50% of the brightener was washed out in less than
two hours, where it took about 12 hours to wash half the brightener
from Brovira. He later tested Ilford Galerie using Ilford's
recommended processing, Galerie's fluorescence was about 23% less than
that of Ilfobrom. So the problem is quite real.


Jean-David Beyer wrote:

LR Kalajainen wrote:

Still water washing with several changes of water and shuffling
over several hours works just fine for FB prints; been doing it for
years. I once forgot and left them in for three days and that
soaked off the emulsion, but I when I'm finishing a print session
just before bedtime, I frequently leave them in overnight with no
ill effects at all.

Other than washing out the brighteners, I assume you meant.





--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 07:30:00 up 46 days, 15:47, 3 users, load average: 4.32, 4.28, 4.15

In article ,
Jean-David Beyer wrote:

As far as I know, the only B&W paper without brighteners is Kodabromide,
and I do not know if it is made anymore.

Its not.

--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

In article ,
Jean-David Beyer wrote:


If you measure the Dmax, I can almost bet it will drop
by at least .15 by soaking that long,

Why would that be? I cannot believe water would dissolve out the silver.

The only thing I can tell you is that I was testing paper for a long
time along a specific set of criteria. I had data that indicated what the
final Dmax should be for the paper emulsions I was testing, because the
Dmax was low on multiple emulsions in several batches I was testing I
had to try and figure out why they were low. The problem only corrected
itself after I stopped leaving the paper soak for more than a few hours.

All other test criteria were the same.

--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918

"Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
...

Well, you have not read the rearch of Dr. Richard Joseph Henry [...]

Brighteners begin to wash out right away, 30% or so in the first 1/2 hour.
For Ilfobrom, 50% of the brightener was washed out in less than two hours,

You are _the man_, Jean-David! I was keeping quiet because I had the
impression that it was true. Thanks for the research and concern.

The next time I get in the darkroom to print, I'll reprint several negs
that I've already printed and washed in an overnight soak. This time,
I'll do them with multiple changes of water and shorter soaking times,
so that the total doesn't exceed about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Then I'll compare.

If I see a difference in the brighteness of the highlights or a change
in D-Max, I'll eat an appropriate amount of crow and will be thankful
for having learned something. If I can't see a difference, (and I may
ask others if they can see the difference also) then I'll figure that
whatever the actual case may be, if you can't see it, it doesn't matter.

Larry

Gregory Blank wrote:

In article ,
Jean-David Beyer wrote:



If you measure the Dmax, I can almost bet it will drop
by at least .15 by soaking that long,


Why would that be? I cannot believe water would dissolve out the silver.



The only thing I can tell you is that I was testing paper for a long
time along a specific set of criteria. I had data that indicated what the
final Dmax should be for the paper emulsions I was testing, because the
Dmax was low on multiple emulsions in several batches I was testing I
had to try and figure out why they were low. The problem only corrected
itself after I stopped leaving the paper soak for more than a few hours.

All other test criteria were the same.

In article ,
LR Kalajainen wrote:

The next time I get in the darkroom to print, I'll reprint several negs
that I've already printed and washed in an overnight soak. This time,
I'll do them with multiple changes of water and shorter soaking times,
so that the total doesn't exceed about 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Then I'll compare.

If I see a difference in the brighteness of the highlights or a change
in D-Max, I'll eat an appropriate amount of crow and will be thankful
for having learned something. If I can't see a difference, (and I may
ask others if they can see the difference also) then I'll figure that
whatever the actual case may be, if you can't see it, it doesn't matter.

Larry

You may only see a difference by using a densitometer. Especially if your
testing is of glossy paper.

--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918