Police harassment on New Jersey Transit

Hi JohnCM

There is a lot of text there and I have not read it all.

I am just wondering aloud - let me run this by you first?

Why not send a lovely formal letter copied to transport police, local
police, authorities that run the stations and train companies asking for
permission to take photos between this date and that date, between this
section of track and that section of track?

Offer to keep a diary of events and a willingness to send each organisation
a full 100% copy of all images taken?

Nobody wants to hassle sincere folks but on the other hand, have a moral,
professional and legal duty to discharge.

Good luck - I hope this helps you maintain your interest without getting in
hot water

Artie

ps - don't edit or erase any pics.

A

"JohnCM" wrote in message
om...
Many cops these days seem to get their back up about people taking
photos of trains. Many of the MTA police stop people from taking
photographs from commuter rail stations, citing security reasons. This
is bad enough.
But the tactics of New Jersey Transit's police, really scare me. Many
people have spoke to NJT Police and they say if you're caught taking
pictures they will arrest you and seize your camera, even if you're
NOT on NJT property. They cite their right to "steal" using security
concerns.
I do some railroad photography. Alot less than I used to. I've only
done photography on MTA railraods, usually just a few quick snapshots.
One time I was taking photos at a Long Island Railroad station and an
MTA police officer stopped and questioned me. First he said that
photos werent allowed, but after questioning, let me take them. I'm
not so much afraid of being questioned, as of being arrested or having
my camera seized.
I plan on taking a trip on NJT rail this fall to Short Hills. But when
I go I plan on getting a few pictures as I get off the train. But I'm
really worried about getting arrested or "robbed" by the police. I
know, if I feel that uncomfortable I shouldn't take the pictures. But
don't I have the right to take pictures? It is a public transit system
supposedly run BY US. Also, do cops really have the right to seize a
camera and arrest you for taking a photo? Its one thing if someone
just refused to obey the cop, but quite another if its someone taking
photos, and is just told they're under arrest without even given a
chance to say they didnt know about a ban. I always obey what a police
offer says, since I dont want to cause trouble.
It sure seems like the USSR is being re-incarnated, right here in the
USA.

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:10:01 GMT, Arte Phacting hath writ:

If security staff request no photos it is probably better to respect the
request

The pity is they are very unlikely to be "security staff".
More likely, they are petty, bureaucratic "functionarys".

Ashcroft's Total Information Awareness program has this thread
under scrutiny...

In article , JS wrote:
John,
Go to the website http://www.njtransit.com/ There you may find the
info you need. If not, email them. The last I heard a permis IS required
to take photos of trains and subways in both NY and NJ.

For NJT, you do need a permit. I don't know if they have anything
specifically about it on their Web site, but I've read that if you use
their generic customer service feedback form to ask about photo permits,
the person who handles them will e-mail you back with more information.
Apparently you have to give specific locations, dates and times at which
you want to take pictures, and the permit is restricted accordingly.
Supposedly this has been on the books since 2000, but no railfan seems to
have heard of it before this past April.

For NY, there is *no* requirement for permits yet. The MTA has *proposed*
a complete ban on private photography in the New York subway system,
beginning in September. Only press photography and authorized commercial
shoots would be permitted. This hasn't even entered a mandatory 45-day
public discussion period yet, as far as I know. Despite this, railfans
have been frequently questioned by transit police in subway stations (as
well as on the LIRR and Metro-North commuter rail) and at least
discouraged from taking pictures.

As you might expect, all this is a frequent topic of discussion in the
SubTalk forum on http://www.nycsubway.org/ .

--
Jon Bell Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA

In article , JS wrote:
John,
Go to the website http://www.njtransit.com/ There you may find the
info you need. If not, email them. The last I heard a permis IS required
to take photos of trains and subways in both NY and NJ.

For NJT, you do need a permit. I don't know if they have anything
specifically about it on their Web site, but I've read that if you use
their generic customer service feedback form to ask about photo permits,
the person who handles them will e-mail you back with more information.
Apparently you have to give specific locations, dates and times at which
you want to take pictures, and the permit is restricted accordingly.
Supposedly this has been on the books since 2000, but no railfan seems to
have heard of it before this past April.

For NY, there is *no* requirement for permits yet. The MTA has *proposed*
a complete ban on private photography in the New York subway system,
beginning in September. Only press photography and authorized commercial
shoots would be permitted. This hasn't even entered a mandatory 45-day
public discussion period yet, as far as I know. Despite this, railfans
have been frequently questioned by transit police in subway stations (as
well as on the LIRR and Metro-North commuter rail) and at least
discouraged from taking pictures.

As you might expect, all this is a frequent topic of discussion in the
SubTalk forum on http://www.nycsubway.org/ .

--
Jon Bell Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA

Don't let it wind you up JohnCM

There is no harm in doing the right thing

If you are subject to mistreatment you have recourse to exercise your
rights. Unfortunately that can be a bit like a poker match with the
biggestv spender being the winner as opposed to the best interpretation of
justice.

I have not read all the responses but I believe that the right thing to do
is to write & ask. If the answer is NO - respect it. If the answer is a
conditional YES wityh copies of all images forwarded - well respect that
too.

It is a shame that a hobby an interest and a passion may require such an
approach. Once you have permission (and maybe even a permit?) who knows -
they may even look forward to seeing you one year after the other.

Hang loose and have fun - but always do the right thing :-)

Artie

"JohnCM" wrote in message
m...
"Gene Palmiter" wrote in message
.. .
Ok....I read a Court Opinion some time ago where it was determined that
a
web page is the press. Anyone collecting information for a web page, or
for
dissemination to the public, is a member of the press. Make yourself a
press
ID and a web page. At least then you will have something to show the
cops.
They might take your camera....and it might take a visit to the Supreme
Court to get it back....but they might let you be.

Thing is I'm not someone who can afford to lose their camera! I
already carry several photo ID's, there's no need for a fake "press"
ID. Dont want to get into any more trouble than I would be.
If a cop tells me to stop, I'll stop. I dont want to be in jail or
have my camera seized. Of course what I'm worried about is that
hard-ass cop, who doesnt give a **** and will take my camera away
(which to me is THEFT)orand throw me in jail.

Hmm - an afterthought

Wouldn't it be nice if after going through all the procedures, paying the
dues and obtaining all permits, one or two of the regulatory authorities
turned round and said something like:

well thanks JohnCM. We've received your pics and we are so impressed with
image XYZ123 that we want to use it in next year's PR releases. We'd like
to offer you a couple hundred bucks for use of the image and you retain
copyright ownership OR a couple hundred bucks more and you sign over
original image and copyright ownership to us.

Doing the right thing should not be a pain and there is the potential to
make things right with John and the rest of the world (least ways those
respectable enough to care as the original poster seems to)

a humble Artie

JohnCM writes:

Thing is I'm not someone who can afford to lose their camera!

After you sue and win, you can buy several new ones.

Dont want to get into any more trouble than I would be.
If a cop tells me to stop, I'll stop.

If he tells you "no blacks allowed here," will you go with that, too?
If he tells you "give me $50 or I'll arrest you," will you cough up the
$50? After all, you don't want to get into any trouble, do you?

I dont want to be in jail or have my camera seized.

You don't want any freedom, either.

Of course what I'm worried about is that
hard-ass cop, who doesnt give a **** and will take my camera away
(which to me is THEFT)orand throw me in jail.

It's theft under the law, too, and not just to you.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Arte Phacting writes:

It is a shame that a hobby an interest and a passion may require such an
approach. Once you have permission (and maybe even a permit?) who knows -
they may even look forward to seeing you one year after the other.

Or they may withdraw or refuse permission, and then you'll have to find
some other hobby. And so on, until you aren't allowed to do anything at
all.

Hang loose and have fun - but always do the right thing :-)

Some people think the right thing is to defend your rights, rather than
lose them.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Arte Phacting writes:

Wouldn't it be nice if after going through all the procedures, paying the
dues and obtaining all permits, one or two of the regulatory authorities
turned round and said something like:

It would be nice, but then again, it's no more likely than winning the
lottery.

well thanks JohnCM. We've received your pics and we are so impressed with
image XYZ123 that we want to use it in next year's PR releases. We'd like
to offer you a couple hundred bucks for use of the image and you retain
copyright ownership OR a couple hundred bucks more and you sign over
original image and copyright ownership to us.

It would be more like: We've decided to use your photos. Remember that
you gave us blanket permission to do anything we want with the photos
when you signed your request for a permit. And remember that you also
agreed to supply us with copies of every photo at your expense. Thanks.

Doing the right thing should not be a pain ...

If that were true, the United States would never have been founded.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

"Arte Phacting" wrote in message
...

Hang loose and have fun - but always do the right thing :-)

The right thing in this situation is to assert one's rights and take the
photos without seeking, or receiving, permission.