Horribly greedy Apple, not satisfied with $164 billion wanted even more

On 6/26/2015 12:23 PM, Savageduck wrote:


snip

However, Swift was the first independent heavyweight in the music industry to
advise Apple that she was not going to permit her music to be streamed (not
that I care, and not that she needs the income from any streaming service)
because the original Apple proposal was unfair to many independent musician
who might no receive any payment as the commercial life of their music might
be limited to that initial three months. As for musician signed to the major
record labels, they have no say in the matter as they have no deal with
Apple, their record label does.

Swift would be the major attraction for those of her fans likely to be lured
to Apple Music, and Apple could not ignore that group of millions of
potential subscribers. Apple couldn’t care one way or the other with regard
to any of the other independents. Without an agreement with Swift there would
be the potential for a massive boycott from her fans.


Pop Quiz:
Without looking it up, what song has generated the most royalties, of
all time.

Hint: It is not a new song, and is not in the public domain.
ANS: Tonight.




--
PeterN

"PeterN" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2015 11:58 AM, PAS wrote:

snip


Publishing rights is where the money is. For broadcast radio, the
artist doesn't receive any compensation when his/her/their song is
played, the entity that owns the publishing rights gets paid.

Depends on the contract. Both ASCAP and BMI have a formula to
calculate the royalties. There is no question that a portion of the
royalties, under a properly drafted contract, goes to the artists. In
quite a few cases the artist has been given a flat fee, in lieu of
royalties. If the work becomes a super hit, the artist sometimes
forgets that the royalties have been sold.

BMI and ASCAP serve songwriters and publishers, they don't serve
performers or pay royalties to performers unless they are the writer
and/or publisher. Performers get no royalties from their songs being
played on broadcast radio unless they happen to be the writer/publisher
and then, in that case, they receive royalties as the composer and/or
publisher, not the performer.

From
https://www.futureofmusic.org/articl...und-recordings

No Royalties to Performers for Terrestrial Radio Play

Although royalties are distributed to songwriters and publishers for
public performances for terrestrial radio play, this right does not
extend to the performers or the sound recording copyright owner (usually
the record label). So, when you hear Patsy Cline singing “Crazy� on the
radio, songwriter Willie Nelson and his publisher are compensated
through BMI, but the estate of Patsy Cline receives no pay for the
performance. Neither do the studio musicians, backing vocalists, or the
record label.

This arrangement is the result of a long-standing argument made by
terrestrial broadcasters that performers and labels benefit from the
free promotion received through radio play. Broadcasters contend that
airplay increases album sales, which leads to compensation for
performers and record labels. As a result, broadcasters have, for
decades, convinced Congress that they should be exempt from paying the
public performance royalty for sound recordings. But the broadcasters’
argument is steadily losing relevance, and their exempt status becomes
more questionable when compared to other countries’ broad requirements
for performance royalties.

On Jun 26, 2015, PeterN wrote
(in ):

On 6/26/2015 12:23 PM, Savageduck wrote:


snip

However, Swift was the first independent heavyweight in the music industry
to
advise Apple that she was not going to permit her music to be streamed (not
that I care, and not that she needs the income from any streaming service)
because the original Apple proposal was unfair to many independent musician
who might no receive any payment as the commercial life of their music
might
be limited to that initial three months. As for musician signed to the
major
record labels, they have no say in the matter as they have no deal with
Apple, their record label does.

Swift would be the major attraction for those of her fans likely to be
lured
to Apple Music, and Apple could not ignore that group of millions of
potential subscribers. Apple couldn’t care one way or the other with
regard
to any of the other independents. Without an agreement with Swift there
would
be the potential for a massive boycott from her fans.


Pop Quiz:
Without looking it up, what song has generated the most royalties, of
all time.

Hint: It is not a new song, and is not in the public domain.
ANS: Tonight.

Oh! You must be referring to the Paul Anka, Tonight with Johnny Carson Theme.
I suspect he made more by being the writer of the English lyrics of
Sinatra’s “My Way�.It made a lot of money for Anka but it is not even
in the top ten, that is a bit of a myth. It might be the highest grossing TV
theme, but not the highest royalty generator.

I think that you should check your proposal against the copyright and value
of “Happy Birthday�. Written by the Hill sisters and first copyrighted in
1935 by The Summy Company. Warner bought the copyright in 1988 for $25M and
that will not expire until 2030.

Here are the actual top ten royalty earners from 10-1 The writers are listed:
10: Mel Torme - “The Christmas Song� (1944) est. earnings $19M
9: Roy Orbison&Bill Dees - “Oh Pretty Woman� (1964) est. earnings $19.75M
8: Gordon Sumner(AKA Sting) - “Every Breath You Take�(1983) est. earnings
$20.5M
7: Haven Gillespie&Fred J. Coots - “Santa Claus is Coming to Town�(1934)
est. earnings $25M
6: Ben E. King, Jerry Lieber&Mike Stoller - “Stand By Me�(1961) est.
earnings $27M. (but King was robbed by the record label for his performance)
5: Alex North&Hy Zaret - “Unchained Melody�(1955) est. earnings $27.5M
4: Lohn Lennon&Paul McCartney - “Yesterday�(1965) est. earnings $30M
3: Barry Mann, Cynthia Well,&Phil Spector - “You’ve Lost That Lovin’
Feein’� est. earnings $32M (also the most played song in radio history)
2: Irving Berlin - “White Christmas�(1940) est. earnings $36M
1: Hill Sisters - “Happy Birthday� est. earnings $50M

--

Regards,
Savageduck

On 26/06/2015 16:58, PAS wrote:
Publishing rights is where the money is. For broadcast radio, the
artist doesn't receive any compensation when his/her/their song is
played, the entity that owns the publishing rights gets paid.


In the UK, the organisation that collects the money for plays of
recordings has agents who go around trying to find places of work with a
radio on. From what I remember, if more than one person can hear it
then they demand a payment - the agent presumably gets a large
commission because they are very aggressive in the pursuit of the
payments. It has been suggested that most of the money quite likely
goes to the organisation rather the artists. The radio stations have of
course already paid to play the recording.

On 6/26/2015 2:24 PM, PAS wrote:
"PeterN" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/2015 11:58 AM, PAS wrote:

snip


Publishing rights is where the money is. For broadcast radio, the
artist doesn't receive any compensation when his/her/their song is
played, the entity that owns the publishing rights gets paid.

Depends on the contract. Both ASCAP and BMI have a formula to
calculate the royalties. There is no question that a portion of the
royalties, under a properly drafted contract, goes to the artists. In
quite a few cases the artist has been given a flat fee, in lieu of
royalties. If the work becomes a super hit, the artist sometimes
forgets that the royalties have been sold.

BMI and ASCAP serve songwriters and publishers, they don't serve
performers or pay royalties to performers unless they are the writer
and/or publisher. Performers get no royalties from their songs being
played on broadcast radio unless they happen to be the writer/publisher
and then, in that case, they receive royalties as the composer and/or
publisher, not the performer.

From
https://www.futureofmusic.org/articl...und-recordings


No Royalties to Performers for Terrestrial Radio Play

Although royalties are distributed to songwriters and publishers for
public performances for terrestrial radio play, this right does not
extend to the performers or the sound recording copyright owner (usually
the record label). So, when you hear Patsy Cline singing “Crazy� on the
radio, songwriter Willie Nelson and his publisher are compensated
through BMI, but the estate of Patsy Cline receives no pay for the
performance. Neither do the studio musicians, backing vocalists, or the
record label.

This arrangement is the result of a long-standing argument made by
terrestrial broadcasters that performers and labels benefit from the
free promotion received through radio play. Broadcasters contend that
airplay increases album sales, which leads to compensation for
performers and record labels. As a result, broadcasters have, for
decades, convinced Congress that they should be exempt from paying the
public performance royalty for sound recordings. But the broadcasters’
argument is steadily losing relevance, and their exempt status becomes
more questionable when compared to other countries’ broad requirements
for performance royalties.



I was mentally directoward the owners of the copyright. At one time the
stations were paid to play and promote a song or alblum.
If the performer has a proper contract, the performer will get a share
of the royalties. There was a time when TV actors did not get paid for
reruns. Now, most do. It is all a matter of negotiation.


--
PeterN

On 6/26/2015 3:28 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On Jun 26, 2015, PeterN wrote
(in ):

On 6/26/2015 12:23 PM, Savageduck wrote:


snip

However, Swift was the first independent heavyweight in the music industry
to
advise Apple that she was not going to permit her music to be streamed (not
that I care, and not that she needs the income from any streaming service)
because the original Apple proposal was unfair to many independent musician
who might no receive any payment as the commercial life of their music
might
be limited to that initial three months. As for musician signed to the
major
record labels, they have no say in the matter as they have no deal with
Apple, their record label does.

Swift would be the major attraction for those of her fans likely to be
lured
to Apple Music, and Apple could not ignore that group of millions of
potential subscribers. Apple couldn’t care one way or the other with
regard
to any of the other independents. Without an agreement with Swift there
would
be the potential for a massive boycott from her fans.


Pop Quiz:
Without looking it up, what song has generated the most royalties, of
all time.

Hint: It is not a new song, and is not in the public domain.
ANS: Tonight.

Oh! You must be referring to the Paul Anka, Tonight with Johnny Carson Theme.
I suspect he made more by being the writer of the English lyrics of
Sinatra’s “My Way�.It made a lot of money for Anka but it is not even
in the top ten, that is a bit of a myth. It might be the highest grossing TV
theme, but not the highest royalty generator.

I think that you should check your proposal against the copyright and value
of “Happy Birthday�. Written by the Hill sisters and first copyrighted in
1935 by The Summy Company. Warner bought the copyright in 1988 for $25M and
that will not expire until 2030.

Here are the actual top ten royalty earners from 10-1 The writers are listed:
10: Mel Torme - “The Christmas Song� (1944) est. earnings $19M
9: Roy Orbison&Bill Dees - “Oh Pretty Woman� (1964) est. earnings $19.75M
8: Gordon Sumner(AKA Sting) - “Every Breath You Take�(1983) est. earnings
$20.5M
7: Haven Gillespie&Fred J. Coots - “Santa Claus is Coming to Town�(1934)
est. earnings $25M
6: Ben E. King, Jerry Lieber&Mike Stoller - “Stand By Me�(1961) est.
earnings $27M. (but King was robbed by the record label for his performance)
5: Alex North&Hy Zaret - “Unchained Melody�(1955) est. earnings $27.5M
4: Lohn Lennon&Paul McCartney - “Yesterday�(1965) est. earnings $30M
3: Barry Mann, Cynthia Well,&Phil Spector - “You’ve Lost That Lovin’
Feein’� est. earnings $32M (also the most played song in radio history)
2: Irving Berlin - “White Christmas�(1940) est. earnings $36M
1: Hill Sisters - “Happy Birthday� est. earnings $50M

--
I menat I will give the answer tonight. ;-) I had hpoped that the answer
would not be researched prior to posting.



--
PeterN

On Jun 26, 2015, PeterN wrote
(in ):

On 6/26/2015 3:28 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On Jun 26, 2015, PeterN wrote
(in ):

On 6/26/2015 12:23 PM, Savageduck wrote:


snip

However, Swift was the first independent heavyweight in the music
industry
to
advise Apple that she was not going to permit her music to be streamed
(not
that I care, and not that she needs the income from any streaming
service)
because the original Apple proposal was unfair to many independent
musician
who might no receive any payment as the commercial life of their music
might
be limited to that initial three months. As for musician signed to the
major
record labels, they have no say in the matter as they have no deal with
Apple, their record label does.

Swift would be the major attraction for those of her fans likely to be
lured
to Apple Music, and Apple could not ignore that group of millions of
potential subscribers. Apple couldn’t care one way or the other with
regard
to any of the other independents. Without an agreement with Swift there
would
be the potential for a massive boycott from her fans.


Pop Quiz:
Without looking it up, what song has generated the most royalties, of
all time.

Hint: It is not a new song, and is not in the public domain.
ANS: Tonight.

Oh! You must be referring to the Paul Anka, Tonight with Johnny Carson
Theme.
I suspect he made more by being the writer of the English lyrics of
Sinatra’s “My Way�.It made a lot of money for Anka but it is not even
in the top ten, that is a bit of a myth. It might be the highest grossing
TV
theme, but not the highest royalty generator.

I think that you should check your proposal against the copyright and value
of “Happy Birthday�. Written by the Hill sisters and first copyrighted
in
1935 by The Summy Company. Warner bought the copyright in 1988 for $25M and
that will not expire until 2030.

Here are the actual top ten royalty earners from 10-1 The writers are
listed:
10: Mel Torme - “The Christmas Song� (1944) est. earnings $19M
9: Roy Orbison&Bill Dees - “Oh Pretty Woman� (1964) est. earnings
$19.75M
8: Gordon Sumner(AKA Sting) - “Every Breath You Take�(1983) est.
earnings
$20.5M
7: Haven Gillespie&Fred J. Coots - “Santa Claus is Coming to
Town�(1934)
est. earnings $25M
6: Ben E. King, Jerry Lieber&Mike Stoller - “Stand By Me�(1961) est.
earnings $27M. (but King was robbed by the record label for his
performance)
5: Alex North&Hy Zaret - “Unchained Melody�(1955) est. earnings $27.5M
4: Lohn Lennon&Paul McCartney - “Yesterday�(1965) est. earnings $30M
3: Barry Mann, Cynthia Well,&Phil Spector - “You’ve Lost That Lovin’
Feein’� est. earnings $32M (also the most played song in radio history)
2: Irving Berlin - “White Christmas�(1940) est. earnings $36M
1: Hill Sisters - “Happy Birthday� est. earnings $50M

--
I menat I will give the answer tonight. ;-) I had hpoped that the answer
would not be researched prior to posting.

I knew it was “Happy Birthday�.
When you wrote “clue� and included “Tonight� there seemed to be
enough ambiguity that you might be thinking of the Paul Anka tune.

Sorry I spoilt your fun. ;-(

--

Regards,
Savageduck

On 6/26/2015 7:32 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On Jun 26, 2015, PeterN wrote
(in ):

On 6/26/2015 3:28 PM, Savageduck wrote:
On Jun 26, 2015, PeterN wrote
(in ):

On 6/26/2015 12:23 PM, Savageduck wrote:


snip

However, Swift was the first independent heavyweight in the music
industry
to
advise Apple that she was not going to permit her music to be streamed
(not
that I care, and not that she needs the income from any streaming
service)
because the original Apple proposal was unfair to many independent
musician
who might no receive any payment as the commercial life of their music
might
be limited to that initial three months. As for musician signed to the
major
record labels, they have no say in the matter as they have no deal with
Apple, their record label does.

Swift would be the major attraction for those of her fans likely to be
lured
to Apple Music, and Apple could not ignore that group of millions of
potential subscribers. Apple couldn’t care one way or the other with
regard
to any of the other independents. Without an agreement with Swift there
would
be the potential for a massive boycott from her fans.


Pop Quiz:
Without looking it up, what song has generated the most royalties, of
all time.

Hint: It is not a new song, and is not in the public domain.
ANS: Tonight.

Oh! You must be referring to the Paul Anka, Tonight with Johnny Carson
Theme.
I suspect he made more by being the writer of the English lyrics of
Sinatra’s “My Way�.It made a lot of money for Anka but it is not even
in the top ten, that is a bit of a myth. It might be the highest grossing
TV
theme, but not the highest royalty generator.

I think that you should check your proposal against the copyright and value
of “Happy Birthday�. Written by the Hill sisters and first copyrighted
in
1935 by The Summy Company. Warner bought the copyright in 1988 for $25M and
that will not expire until 2030.

Here are the actual top ten royalty earners from 10-1 The writers are
listed:
10: Mel Torme - “The Christmas Song� (1944) est. earnings $19M
9: Roy Orbison&Bill Dees - “Oh Pretty Woman� (1964) est. earnings
$19.75M
8: Gordon Sumner(AKA Sting) - “Every Breath You Take�(1983) est.
earnings
$20.5M
7: Haven Gillespie&Fred J. Coots - “Santa Claus is Coming to
Town�(1934)
est. earnings $25M
6: Ben E. King, Jerry Lieber&Mike Stoller - “Stand By Me�(1961) est.
earnings $27M. (but King was robbed by the record label for his
performance)
5: Alex North&Hy Zaret - “Unchained Melody�(1955) est. earnings $27.5M
4: Lohn Lennon&Paul McCartney - “Yesterday�(1965) est. earnings $30M
3: Barry Mann, Cynthia Well,&Phil Spector - “You’ve Lost That Lovin’
Feein’� est. earnings $32M (also the most played song in radio history)
2: Irving Berlin - “White Christmas�(1940) est. earnings $36M
1: Hill Sisters - “Happy Birthday� est. earnings $50M

--
I menat I will give the answer tonight. ;-) I had hpoped that the answer
would not be researched prior to posting.

I knew it was “Happy Birthday�.
When you wrote “clue� and included “Tonight� there seemed to be
enough ambiguity that you might be thinking of the Paul Anka tune.

Sorry I spoilt your fun. ;-(


That's OK Tony Cooper gave the first correct answer, and wins the grand
prize.

Since there were not many participants, the prize is the participants
confidence that the mind has not yet deteriorated into total senility. ;-)


--
PeterN

In article , nospam wrote:

Sandman:
And I proved you incorrect by posting this link to this article
where it was first "leaked" that artists get 0% during the free
trial. Taylor Swift was NOT the first to point this out.

no you didn't and they don't get 0%

Not any more, but at the time of that article, they did. Which was the point.

--
Sandman

In article m, Savageduck
wrote:

Sandman:
Sigh. The article is about Apple "only" paying 58% of streaming
royalties to artists, which Apple responded to and said that no,
they pay between 70% and 75% depending on region, 71.5% in the
states.

What we're talking about that I, correctly, claimed that Taylor
Swift wasb't the first to point out that artists get 0% royalties
during the trial period, to which you responded:

"yes she was"

And I proved you incorrect by posting this link to this article
where it was first "leaked" that artists get 0% during the free
trial. Taylor Swift was NOT the first to point this out.

However, Swift was the first independent heavyweight in the music
industry to advise Apple that she was not going to permit her music
to be streamed (not that I care, and not that she needs the income
from any streaming service) because the original Apple proposal was
unfair to many independent musician who might no receive any
payment as the commercial life of their music might be limited to
that initial three months.

Well, she's not independant, her label (Big Machine) is. Just to clarify.

And yes, she was the first "big" name to point this out, but far from the
first, people had been talking about this for almost two weeks before someone
at Big Machine told Taylor to make the post.

As for musician signed to the major record labels, they have no say
in the matter as they have no deal with Apple, their record label
does.

Of course.

Swift would be the major attraction for those of her fans likely to
be lured to Apple Music, and Apple could not ignore that group of
millions of potential subscribers.

Well, there's the rub. Taylor Swift isn't on Spotify, yet these "millions" of
fans aren't likely refusing Spotify seeing how many subscribers there are
there.

It's more likely that Taylor Swift made this a public issue and that's what
Apple is responding to. Apple always has and always has been the target for
linkbait headlines. It's far more likely that Apple has been in talks with many
labels about this issue since the contracts were sent out and Taylor Swift made
it a public headline matter, so any policy change that was already being
considered was made public by Apple in relation to that.

People wouldn't sign up for Apple Music depending on whether or not Taylor
Swift was on it or not, but they would perhaps be unwilling to do so if they
felt that Apple was "bullying" the artists as so many linkbaits have called it.

Apple couldn't care one way or the other with regard to any of the
other independents. Without an agreement with Swift there would be
the potential for a massive boycott from her fans.

Of course not. There aren't any Taylor Swift fans that would only subscribe to
Apple Music to listen to her music only, they would buy her album and be done
with it. Other fans of Swift also listen to a multitude of music that IS on
Apple Music (and Spotify).

The only "bullying" here is by Taylor Swift, who choose to do this as a
publicity stunt instead of talking to Apple directly.

In essence, any label that felt the contract was unfair could either wait to
sign for it, or uncheck the "Ready for Apple Music" on their popular albums
during the first three months of Apple Music release.

Or hey, why not just talk to Apple and tell them they feel they can't give away
their music for free during this summer, the end result would have probably
been the same.

--
Sandman