Do you make a living as a wedding photographer?

DD wrote:

I'm a businessman. I look at stuff with one thing in mind: how much
profit would a business like that yield? Would it be worth investing
one's time and money into it?

In order to get a meaningful answer, you need to understand what it really
takes to make the business work. I don't think that you do.

I look at wedding photographers and I wonder why, if the business is so
tough and the rewards so sparse, there are so many people who keep on
doing it.

Because it's a viable business and you can make a living at it, of course.
You just seem to have a pretty twisted idea of how it works. You don't
just get up in the morning, go to a wedding, shoot some pictures, go to
the reception, shoot some more pictures, and count your money.

--
Jeremy |

I'm interested in hearing from people around the world on their thoughts
regarding choosing wedding photography as a vocation. If you could take
a moment to answer these questions, I would be most appreciative of your
input.

1. Where do you see yourself on the socio-economic scale regarding your
income? i.e. well above average, above average, average, below average,
well below average.

my below average income isn't because of the job, its my own personal
problems and relative economic conditions. For awhile I making about $50k a
year, but in San Fran that was barely making rent. Now in WA I'm making
half that and doing about the same, just now I'm barely making house
payments.


2. Do you do it full time as your only source of income or purely as a
part-time supplement to existing income? If you are doing it full time,
do you only do weddings? If not, what percentage of your income do
weddings provide?

Its supposed to be part time supplement to my real work as a portrait
photographer.


3. How many weddings do you do annually?

200 - 300 hundred, (now before you call me a liar, keep in mind that nearly
all my weddings are 'one roll' shoots in a wedding chapel setting.)



4. How long did it take to establish yourself in the market? What
marketing techniques did you use? i.e. if advertising, where did you
advertise?

it doesn't take long to establish, but you tend to pigeon hole yourself into
a market segment which is hard to break out of, if you start with prices too
low then you loose a lot of referrals from a year or two back. If you start
with your prices too high WITHOUT the whole pretty package, the zeitgeist of
a hi ender, then you won't book many and won't establish a market.


5. Do you find it a rewarding profession? In other words, do you feel
you could have done something else instead of doing weddings?

I think its the second greatist job in the world.



6. What do you base your pricing on?

there are many ways to set price, run the numbers to see what your costs
are, what your goals are and spread that out over the number of jobs you can
expect to do and divide, you need to gross this much to make that much.
Some folks just see what others charge and charge a few less, or charge a
few more. I once set prices by approx one buck per square inch of paper.


7. Do you find it very competitive to remain active in this field?

It's very competitive as very snotnosed camera geek, soccer mom, bored
computer engineer, and photojournalist student can print a business card.
OTOH, make a good impression on a popular client, be the go to guy at a
large church or reception location and the competition is YOU, the one that
was recommended and all those other guys dissappear.

8. What size market are you working in? i.e. Do you have to travel
extensively to get commissions or are you in a big enough centre to
remain locally based?

irrelevent, large markets are more fragmented.


9. What kind of output do you provide your customers? i.e. do you simply
provide prints or do you also compile their albums in addition to other
offerings, such as CD ROMs, video, etc.

I used to insist on providing prints just so they know what the quality of
the images are, not leaving it to some 3rd party. now, whatever the client
wants.


10. What format equipment have you chosen and why?


I went from medium format film to 'full frame' digital after a short stop
with a little canon G2 p&s. After I bought that I just started shooting my
little 'chapel' weddings with it, then a full scale wedding, after a year I
realized I hadn't shot a single roll since getting the dang thing, so I sold
all my mamiya gear and got a full frame Kodak. I think that the full frame
(35mm) will be the 'professional' format to the consumer DX.

But here's the thing, wedding photography has gone to hell in the last
couple years, photojournalistic style took over, but with modern auto
everything cameras, anybody and everybody can be a photographer, and anybody
and everybody did, whether or not talent makes difference, its hard for a
client to tell the difference sometimes, even back in the days of
'traditional' I used to wonder why clients would pay some hack that didn't
know a thing about lighting or posing and would shoot nothing different than
their own family or friends. At least in the old days it did take a few
bits of technical skill to figure out exposure and focus the dang camera.

If you are considering wedding photography as a career, don't jump in at the
cheap end, the burn out rate is high. a wedding is a lot of work outside of
the wedding itself. One girl was just crying that she was spending several
nights a week doing this and that and missing her kids and her hubby was
mad. She was doing the prints herself at some mini lab she worked at after
hours. She 'had' to do it cause it was cheaper than paying a pro lab, she
didn't realize that the cost of those prints WAS several nights a week
working in the mini lab away from the family. It wasn't built into the
price of the job.

So, join a local pro association, take some of their workshops, find a
mentor, someone who is good and not just another shooter, most of the stuff
you will end up doing will be a variation of what you know and learn so you
might as well learn from the best. Take one of those week long workshop
that the PPA and state association put on, the best education you can get.

It used to be that a top gun could shoot a wedding with medium format, doing
the 'full monte' with background and studio lighting, having a couple dozen
retouched portraits mounted into a leather album and charging $3-$5k and
with a dozen or so a year make a living, a nice living. Most of the work
was schmoozing with the client, the lab did the prints and retouching, the
bookmaker put the album together. Now you have not a hundred or so images,
but thousands. Not just a few matte layouts but hundreds, millions with
freeform collaging.

there is a link to these associations and many of the workshops in the
z-prophoto mailing list at yahoogroups.com.

You might want to ask your questions there, its the kind of stuff they like
to hash out in a troll free environment.

In case it wasn't clear in the original post, I am merely interested in
hearing from people who do this for a living. I have absolutely no
desire to become a wedding photographer, but I am intrigued by the
amount of money that seems to be changing hands for this service.

I looked at a few US Wedding photographers sites and the average price
for a wedding seems to run at about $2,500 per date. Assuming the
photographer books a minimum of 4 shoots of this nature per month, that
rounds out at $10k gross. Take off about 25% for costs (being generous
here given the output that seems to be offered) the "average" wedding
photographer should be grossing in the region of $7,500 per month. Is
that not an above average income for working only a few days per month?

This thread is not intended to be about whether you are good enough or
whether you can deal with people. I am interested in the financial
aspects of running a wedding photography business ONLY.
--

In my wedding chapel part of the job, I often go out to weddings just as a
minister to officiate. I've seen hundreds of weddings with photogs, but
only a couple times have I run into photogs I know, photogs that are members
of the local association, or photogs that I recognize as having any clue at
all. I know they are 'professional' despite their compunction to go out of
the way to ruin good shots with every chance they get, they keep giving me
their card, you know to net work.

The truth is, the 'average' wedding photog charges a couple hundred bucks,
to be what many professionals would call a cheapie weekend warrior, the $500
or so shoot and hand over the film/CD guy, would be a big step up for most
of these guys.

keep in mind that for every full scale wedding as seen in magazines, the
bridesmaid walking down the aisle, and limos and caterers, there is a dozen
couples getting married in a judge's chamber with just a friend or mom as
witness, there's another dozen getting married with a dozen family a couple
friends in their home or mom's backyard, a half dozen getting married in the
park a MOH and BstM and 30 or so guests.

Lets look at some of your assumptions. Some photogs can get busy, but
there's a seasonal aspect to full scale social weddings. so you have a busy
season and could be shooting a couple weddings every week end for a couple
months. But a busy mid level photog would burn out with 25 events a year.
A studio with a staff could keep a couple photogs shooting several weddings
a weekend. but with overhead many of these guys found they had more fun and
made more money chucking it all and working out of their home for a few
select clients.

If you think about it, the $500 shoot and hand over the film/CD shooter is
making as much as the full service album everything package studios, and
having more fun as they don't do any of the scut work. (and then the
studios get calls from these brides who can't understand why the photos
don't fit into an album, heck they can't find one and why does a real photog
want to charge almost as much to put an album together as they did to shoot
the whole thing. )

costs of shooting a wedding, film, proofs, prints, book, that's just the
materials cost. Like most self employed, they don't consider the portion of
overhead, the portion of health insurance and retirement, especially if they
have a day job, heck, $500 for a few hours shooting pictures is great to a
$100 a day wage earner.

weddings in the past studies had shown took about 31 hours for a typical 6
hour coverage with proof sorting, album arranging, assembly, neg pulling.

overhead consists of rent, (even if working from home, portion of the rent
should be charged to the business.) equipment, bookkeeping, utilities.
Geez, some studios have a $20k nut to crack every month.

I recall there was some business writer did an article on the 10 most
overpaid jobs and wedding photographer was listed as number one IIRC. I
guess he had one of those instant 'professionals' at his wedding.

This reply is echoed to the z-prophoto mailing list at yahoogroups.com

I looked at a few US Wedding photographers sites and the average price
for a wedding seems to run at about $2,500 per date. Assuming the
photographer books a minimum of 4 shoots of this nature per month, that
rounds out at $10k gross. Take off about 25% for costs (being generous
here given the output that seems to be offered) the "average" wedding
photographer should be grossing in the region of $7,500 per month. Is
that not an above average income for working only a few days per month?


Bill 4 - 7 times costs. Include the cost of your own time at some given
rate.

I figure my time at $60/hour, but I'm just starting out, and that's what
the company I used to work for charged for my time when I was a computer
tech.

This is why engineers and other techs into photography tend to be more
successful than the average shooter, they are used to working for, and
charging for professional services at pro rates and continue that attitude
in their own business.

but most skilled labor like mechanics and plumbers charge $120 an hour shop
rate.

this reply is echoed to the z-prophoto mailing list at yahoogroups.com

"DD" wrote in message
...
In article ,
p says...

Way off target here Dallas...
You won't get the answers you are seeking. Try asking your doctor to
justify
his income, you'll have more chance of success. The grass is always
greener
on the other side of the fence, mate. Particularly if you live in the
desert
:-) Come on down to the tropics and see how bad it gets with all this
green
grass.

Er, I think we're near enough to the tropics here.

Behind my 324i BMW, the studio full of expensive cameras and the
manicured
gardens I maintain (at a cost of many hundreds of dollars a week) for
bridal
and portrait photography - all to impress people into spending money -
there
is a huge mortgage, burdening me with over a grand of debt payment every
week for the next 20 years.

Aw gee, Doug. Poor you. I guess you must be the only person in the world
who has expenses.

I pay for it all mostly from the profits I get from other business
ventures.
If I had to support this sort of lifestyle out of Wedding photography
alone,
I couldn't do it yet to the casual observer, I'm doing well out of it.
Same
mistake you are making, Dallas. Read my first post to this thread...
Nothing
could be truer yet you choose not to accept it. Your loss mate.

I'm a businessman. I look at stuff with one thing in mind: how much
profit would a business like that yield? Would it be worth investing
one's time and money into it?

I look at wedding photographers and I wonder why, if the business is so
tough and the rewards so sparse, there are so many people who keep on
doing it.

Poverty is relative. When I'm doing it hard, you could be living high on
the
hoof. When Goldie Horn is broke, I could pay out my mortgage with a
single
month's rent she pays. Why do you want to know so much about other
people's
business if you have no interest other than curiosity? Here are a few
words
of advise Dallas:

"Ours is but to do and die, not to question the reason why".

Correction: "Yours is but to do or die, mine is to question why." Always
has been, probably always will be. The sooner you realise that we are
not all cut from the same cloth, the easier it becomes to get along.

Correction:
"1.
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
"Forward, the Light Brigade!
"Charge for the guns!" he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.


2.
Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.



Alfred, Lord Tennyson, Charge of The Light Brigade.

"DD" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...
DD wrote:

Charge $2500 for a wedding, and do it well, and you're barely scraping
by.

Well, can somebody show me the income statement and balance sheet of
the
average wedding photographer so as to justify what you are saying here?

Scraping by my ass...

Yeah, a lot of business fail because of such assumptions.

You might as well be interested in the financial aspects of being a
plumber,
if you're going to compare what they charge to what a person makes in
a
normal salary. That has very little to do with running a business.

What's your point, Jeremy?

That "charging $2500" is not the same thing as "making $2500".

So how much DO you make if you are charging $2,500 per event? Nobody
seems to be willing to come out and say exactly what it is.

Quite possibly because it's not the same for any two people doing the work,
depending on a host of factors including local costs (the studio rent--oh,
right: you say a wedding photographer doesn't need a studio).

There's another point here,too: I tell IRS what I make because I have to.
Otherwise, it's no one else's business.

"zeitgeist" wrote in message
...
I looked at a few US Wedding photographers sites and the average price
for a wedding seems to run at about $2,500 per date. Assuming the
photographer books a minimum of 4 shoots of this nature per month, that
rounds out at $10k gross. Take off about 25% for costs (being generous
here given the output that seems to be offered) the "average" wedding
photographer should be grossing in the region of $7,500 per month. Is
that not an above average income for working only a few days per month?


Bill 4 - 7 times costs. Include the cost of your own time at some given
rate.

I figure my time at $60/hour, but I'm just starting out, and that's what
the company I used to work for charged for my time when I was a computer
tech.

This is why engineers and other techs into photography tend to be more
successful than the average shooter, they are used to working for, and
charging for professional services at pro rates and continue that attitude
in their own business.

but most skilled labor like mechanics and plumbers charge $120 an hour
shop
rate.

this reply is echoed to the z-prophoto mailing list at yahoogroups.com


And you live where? I just paid $40 an hour for a mechanic's services on my
car, got an excellent job, and was a bit upset that the price had gone up.
The mechanic may get $18 of that in salary and benefits.

I'm in rural Virginia. The only ones around here, other than doctors,
getting $120 an hour have "esquire" after their names.

--
----m0o0m
"DD" wrote in message
...


BTW, how does a lab specialise in "Wedding work"? Do they turn away
anyone who is not printing photos that were taken at a wedding???
--
DD
www.dallasdahms.com
Central Scrutinizer

I suppose I asked for that. My lab specializes in wedding work by virtue
they own an album making business and a huge variety of Wedding
photographers send them files and instructions on sizes and they print them,
make the album and finish it off all in one bundle. They probably would turn
away work that wasn't specifically Weddings because the software they
provide their customers to order with is specifically for Wedding albums.

In article ,
says...

So let's say you manage to get $52k for yourself out of the business
(once you figure out that there's a little more to it than you first
thought). That's like making, what, about $40k in a regular salaried
job? That doesn't sound like the American Dream to me.

What is "The American Dream?"

Can it be quantified in terms of dollars? I would think it would be like
all other dreams, to be happy and to enjoy doing what you do.

I've been wrestling with the thought of expanding my business for two
years now. I know I can do it and I can make it more profitable than it
already is, but by doing that I will probably also shorten my expected
lifespan with the additional incurred stresses of having employees, more
overheads, etc. If I carry on doing what I do now, I will continue to be
middle of the road, but at least I know I won't die by speeding down
that road at 300mph in the quest for more dollars. Life is a journey,
not a destination.

I think that if you can deal with the stresses of weddings and you can
make good pictures, have a little bit of business sense, there is no
reason why you can't make a decent living out of it.


--
DD
www.dallasdahms.com
Central Scrutinizer

In article ,
says...
DD wrote:

I'm a businessman. I look at stuff with one thing in mind: how much
profit would a business like that yield? Would it be worth investing
one's time and money into it?

In order to get a meaningful answer, you need to understand what it really
takes to make the business work. I don't think that you do.

I look at wedding photographers and I wonder why, if the business is so
tough and the rewards so sparse, there are so many people who keep on
doing it.

Because it's a viable business and you can make a living at it, of course.
You just seem to have a pretty twisted idea of how it works. You don't
just get up in the morning, go to a wedding, shoot some pictures, go to
the reception, shoot some more pictures, and count your money.

I never said or implied that it was like that. If you read the questions
I asked again, I'm sure you will see what I am trying to ascertain.

--
DD
www.dallasdahms.com
Central Scrutinizer