Do you make a living as a wedding photographer?

...(good stuff snipped)...
Why don't you see about getting a concession in a shopping centre
to take kids pics? It's a lot easier.

(applause) - nice post, BigPix..

Frankly, if you are asking those questions, DD, you're not even close
to ready, nor have you done any homework..

And before you ask, yes, I did weddings a for a few years, working for
a metropolitan studio with a very good name, using Bronica MF equipment
in the days well before digital. It was interesting and I learnt a lot
(and had a 3 month apprenticeship while I did that learning under
supervision), but after about a year, it became hard to inject fresh
ideas and be excited by the results. The clients still loved my stuff
(it was fresh to *them*), but I lost interest and found it was eating
into what had been an enjoyable hobby. I stopped before it killed my
photography, and it took a couple of years to get re-motivated.

You need to be an organiser - in fact you will end up running a lot of
the wedding becasue no-one else wants to, and they will quickly realise
you know what you are doing! You need to be flexible and patient, yet
quick to react, you need absolute faith in, and knowledge of, your
equipment (of which you must have two of everything if you are
serious), you need to understand the protocols of churches, religions
and cultures and be able to discuss options in detail with couples and
their families, ministers and celebrants, you need backup areas/plans
for bad weather, you need to be able to diplomatically deal with the
inevitable morons (eg who will set up video lights in the church
without even asking permission, etc) and you need to know your market.
I see little evidence of most of those...

But there is also the 'downmarket'. Plenty of folk couldn't tell the
difference between good wedding photography and their... They will be
satisfied with almost anything - although if your prices are too high,
they will get Uncle Arthur to do it because he has a professional
looking camera and a flashgun..

In article .com,
says...
...(good stuff snipped)...
Why don't you see about getting a concession in a shopping centre
to take kids pics? It's a lot easier.

(applause) - nice post, BigPix..

Frankly, if you are asking those questions, DD, you're not even close
to ready, nor have you done any homework..

And before you ask, yes, I did weddings a for a few years, working for
a metropolitan studio with a very good name, using Bronica MF equipment
in the days well before digital. It was interesting and I learnt a lot
(and had a 3 month apprenticeship while I did that learning under
supervision), but after about a year, it became hard to inject fresh
ideas and be excited by the results. The clients still loved my stuff
(it was fresh to *them*), but I lost interest and found it was eating
into what had been an enjoyable hobby. I stopped before it killed my
photography, and it took a couple of years to get re-motivated.

You need to be an organiser - in fact you will end up running a lot of
the wedding becasue no-one else wants to, and they will quickly realise
you know what you are doing! You need to be flexible and patient, yet
quick to react, you need absolute faith in, and knowledge of, your
equipment (of which you must have two of everything if you are
serious), you need to understand the protocols of churches, religions
and cultures and be able to discuss options in detail with couples and
their families, ministers and celebrants, you need backup areas/plans
for bad weather, you need to be able to diplomatically deal with the
inevitable morons (eg who will set up video lights in the church
without even asking permission, etc) and you need to know your market.
I see little evidence of most of those...

But there is also the 'downmarket'. Plenty of folk couldn't tell the
difference between good wedding photography and their... They will be
satisfied with almost anything - although if your prices are too high,
they will get Uncle Arthur to do it because he has a professional
looking camera and a flashgun..

In case it wasn't clear in the original post, I am merely interested in
hearing from people who do this for a living. I have absolutely no
desire to become a wedding photographer, but I am intrigued by the
amount of money that seems to be changing hands for this service.

I looked at a few US Wedding photographers sites and the average price
for a wedding seems to run at about $2,500 per date. Assuming the
photographer books a minimum of 4 shoots of this nature per month, that
rounds out at $10k gross. Take off about 25% for costs (being generous
here given the output that seems to be offered) the "average" wedding
photographer should be grossing in the region of $7,500 per month. Is
that not an above average income for working only a few days per month?

This thread is not intended to be about whether you are good enough or
whether you can deal with people. I am interested in the financial
aspects of running a wedding photography business ONLY.
--
DD
www.dallasdahms.com
Central Scrutinizer

In article ,
DD wrote:

I'm a pro Tog in the Uk I shoot 40-60 weddings a year as well as studio
work, press work, and general commercial work..
Weddings are my mainstay business
I use a Canon 1Dsmk2 with a Kodak DCS 14c as backup
lenses
EL 17-35 2.8
EL 28-70 2.8
EL 70-210 2.8
85mm f1.2

550ex Flashgun and Hensel Porty Kit
(also Metz hammerhead sometimes)
4gb ridata x80 CFcards

I carry a 20"LCD I-mac portable computer and a canon projector with me
My wife is my assistant and carries a 350d with a sigma 28-70 f2.8 and a
2gb microdrive. but mainly she carries a reflector...lol
My insurance is just over 1000 ukp per year, equipment overheads are
about 2000 ukp per year and my advertising budget is 3500ukp per year.

Hope that helps...
Andy

wrote in message
oups.com...
I've always wanted to go into divorce photography....


Now look, you've made me spill my tea...

ROTFL...


Peter

"Jeremy Nixon" wrote in message
...
[SNIP]

I can afford to do the photography I want because I'm not a
professional photographer.

REALLY good point. I am a professioanl photographer, I don't touch
weddings, and no, I (still) can't afford to do half of what I would _enjoy_
doing, photographically.

Wedding photography is not about photography, it's about people.
Sure, you need to know the equipment like you know how to
breathe, but when you're out there, it's all about dealing with
people; that's the skill that's going to make the difference for you.

Second REALLY good point. I have a second cousin who does weddings. He is
a skilled photographer who makes the technical aspects of the job
'disappear' so they don't get in the way - but the reason he is so good
isn't that: it's because he can make everyone he meets both like him, and do
what he tells them. That's a rare skill.


Peter

DD wrote in
:

snippage

In case it wasn't clear in the original post, I am merely interested in
hearing from people who do this for a living. I have absolutely no
desire to become a wedding photographer, but I am intrigued by the
amount of money that seems to be changing hands for this service.

I looked at a few US Wedding photographers sites and the average price
for a wedding seems to run at about $2,500 per date. Assuming the
photographer books a minimum of 4 shoots of this nature per month, that
rounds out at $10k gross. Take off about 25% for costs (being generous
here given the output that seems to be offered) the "average" wedding
photographer should be grossing in the region of $7,500 per month. Is
that not an above average income for working only a few days per month?

This thread is not intended to be about whether you are good enough or
whether you can deal with people. I am interested in the financial
aspects of running a wedding photography business ONLY.


Several factors that you're missing with the above figures (and this
is from someone who did it as a sideline income and isn't motivated to go
"pro")...

First off, 25% for costs is way low. Digital or not, you're going to
get the prints done at a lab, and a trustworthy one at that, because two
screwups and you're behind schedule, and unhappy clients have this problem
with paying (not to mention lawsuits). So the pro lab costs alone push a
typical print package into the $200 to $500 range, depending on package.
Sure, digital takes film and processing out of that - $7.00 a roll,
typically. Ain't much of a drop.

Consider the costs of the album, too - never less than $30 for a
cheesy one, and you can spend $200 on a good one.

Paying an assistant? How much?

*Now* calculate advertising. Nice Yellow Page (telephone directory)
ad runs +/- $200 month, and that's just a start. You should be running ads
in the wedding directories as well, and handouts for the places that will
garner you business (wedding dress shops, floral shops, caterers, DJs, the
nice places to hold the weddings), and so on. Advertising is likely to be
the most expensive part. Half of your business may come from word-of-mouth,
but this varies depending on the metro area, and the more 'networking'
that's available, typically, the more competition from other photographers.

Equipment purchase and upkeep. Sometimes you can get by on this
cheaply, sometimes not.

Business costs - licenses, insurance, admin.

Couple days a week? Unless you plan to meet with the client three
times: sales meeting, planning meeting, and proof review (after the
wedding). Not to mention the sales meetings that never produce a client.
Add in the time you spend running back and forth to the lab, keeping
records, wedding shows, etc. Many people have a tendency to look at it as
if their time is "free", but when you're doing this on top of another job,
and realize you have to answer the phone *every time*, juggle meetings,
arrange schedules, and sit down and balance the accounts, all of a sudden
you're resenting the fact that you have no time to yourself and dammit, at
least want to be paid for it...

Now. How long is your busy season? In the states it varies depending
on temperate zone, but on average you're looking at May through September
for a decent amount of bookings, and maybe one or two a month for the other
months if you're good. Maybe not. Reverse that of course for the southern
hemisphere.

Then there's that other part, and here's where most small businesses
blow it (and I'm not just referring to weddings here): capital. Most of
your expenses are "up front": advertising, materials, equipment,
processing. Getting paid after the wedding tends to run anywhere from 4
weeks afterwards, bare minimum, to over a year for the slow ones. Can you
support a year of just Yellow Page ads ($2400) with no income? Is your
portfolio ready to go, in a nice album, so you have something to show your
first potential client? A nice variety so you can answer the question, "Do
you do photojournalistic style?" ;-)

I'm not saying this to be discouraging, but it ain't easy money, and
has to be approached as a serious business. Some costs can be spaced out or
scrimped on, some can't. For instance, the advertising always has to be
there, whether you're working or not, and even when you're selling $800
packages.

And I'm skipping the whole "salesman" bit, which is an entirely
different, but very necessary, aspect... ;-)

Good luck!


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to match domain below
Online photo gallery at www.wading-in.net

Chrlz wrote:

...(good stuff snipped)...
Why don't you see about getting a concession in a shopping centre
to take kids pics? It's a lot easier.


(applause) - nice post, BigPix..

Frankly, if you are asking those questions, DD, you're not even close
to ready, nor have you done any homework..

OTOH, those questions ARE the homework. At least the beginnings.

DD wrote:

In article .com,
says...

...(good stuff snipped)...
Why don't you see about getting a concession in a shopping centre
to take kids pics? It's a lot easier.

(applause) - nice post, BigPix..

Frankly, if you are asking those questions, DD, you're not even close
to ready, nor have you done any homework..

And before you ask, yes, I did weddings a for a few years, working for
a metropolitan studio with a very good name, using Bronica MF equipment
in the days well before digital. It was interesting and I learnt a lot
(and had a 3 month apprenticeship while I did that learning under
supervision), but after about a year, it became hard to inject fresh
ideas and be excited by the results. The clients still loved my stuff
(it was fresh to *them*), but I lost interest and found it was eating
into what had been an enjoyable hobby. I stopped before it killed my
photography, and it took a couple of years to get re-motivated.

You need to be an organiser - in fact you will end up running a lot of
the wedding becasue no-one else wants to, and they will quickly realise
you know what you are doing! You need to be flexible and patient, yet
quick to react, you need absolute faith in, and knowledge of, your
equipment (of which you must have two of everything if you are
serious), you need to understand the protocols of churches, religions
and cultures and be able to discuss options in detail with couples and
their families, ministers and celebrants, you need backup areas/plans
for bad weather, you need to be able to diplomatically deal with the
inevitable morons (eg who will set up video lights in the church
without even asking permission, etc) and you need to know your market.
I see little evidence of most of those...

But there is also the 'downmarket'. Plenty of folk couldn't tell the
difference between good wedding photography and their... They will be
satisfied with almost anything - although if your prices are too high,
they will get Uncle Arthur to do it because he has a professional
looking camera and a flashgun..


In case it wasn't clear in the original post, I am merely interested in
hearing from people who do this for a living. I have absolutely no
desire to become a wedding photographer, but I am intrigued by the
amount of money that seems to be changing hands for this service.

I looked at a few US Wedding photographers sites and the average price
for a wedding seems to run at about $2,500 per date. Assuming the
photographer books a minimum of 4 shoots of this nature per month, that
rounds out at $10k gross. Take off about 25% for costs (being generous
here given the output that seems to be offered) the "average" wedding
photographer should be grossing in the region of $7,500 per month. Is
that not an above average income for working only a few days per month?

This thread is not intended to be about whether you are good enough or
whether you can deal with people. I am interested in the financial
aspects of running a wedding photography business ONLY.

Bill 4 - 7 times costs. Include the cost of your own time at some given
rate.

I figure my time at $60/hour, but I'm just starting out, and that's what
the company I used to work for charged for my time when I was a computer
tech.

"DD" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
says...
...(good stuff snipped)...
Why don't you see about getting a concession in a shopping centre
to take kids pics? It's a lot easier.

(applause) - nice post, BigPix..

Frankly, if you are asking those questions, DD, you're not even close
to ready, nor have you done any homework..

And before you ask, yes, I did weddings a for a few years, working for
a metropolitan studio with a very good name, using Bronica MF equipment
in the days well before digital. It was interesting and I learnt a lot
(and had a 3 month apprenticeship while I did that learning under
supervision), but after about a year, it became hard to inject fresh
ideas and be excited by the results. The clients still loved my stuff
(it was fresh to *them*), but I lost interest and found it was eating
into what had been an enjoyable hobby. I stopped before it killed my
photography, and it took a couple of years to get re-motivated.

You need to be an organiser - in fact you will end up running a lot of
the wedding becasue no-one else wants to, and they will quickly realise
you know what you are doing! You need to be flexible and patient, yet
quick to react, you need absolute faith in, and knowledge of, your
equipment (of which you must have two of everything if you are
serious), you need to understand the protocols of churches, religions
and cultures and be able to discuss options in detail with couples and
their families, ministers and celebrants, you need backup areas/plans
for bad weather, you need to be able to diplomatically deal with the
inevitable morons (eg who will set up video lights in the church
without even asking permission, etc) and you need to know your market.
I see little evidence of most of those...

But there is also the 'downmarket'. Plenty of folk couldn't tell the
difference between good wedding photography and their... They will be
satisfied with almost anything - although if your prices are too high,
they will get Uncle Arthur to do it because he has a professional
looking camera and a flashgun..

In case it wasn't clear in the original post, I am merely interested in
hearing from people who do this for a living. I have absolutely no
desire to become a wedding photographer, but I am intrigued by the
amount of money that seems to be changing hands for this service.

I looked at a few US Wedding photographers sites and the average price
for a wedding seems to run at about $2,500 per date. Assuming the
photographer books a minimum of 4 shoots of this nature per month, that
rounds out at $10k gross. Take off about 25% for costs (being generous
here given the output that seems to be offered) the "average" wedding
photographer should be grossing in the region of $7,500 per month. Is
that not an above average income for working only a few days per month?

This thread is not intended to be about whether you are good enough or
whether you can deal with people. I am interested in the financial
aspects of running a wedding photography business ONLY.

And you have the fiscal aspects totally screwed up. You do not just gross
$7500 a month for a few days work and call it income. Or $10,000, whichever
figure you choose. You have an investment of thousands in equipment. You
have invested many hours in learning. You have office and studio and
location expenses that are appreciable if you're getting an artist's price
for weddings.

For a good photographer, I'd expect a $2500 wedding to cost him about $1000
by the time albums are delivered. And for the remaining $1500, he can figure
in equipment amortization and similar expenses for office and studio and
advertising that add another $500 to the total. That leaves him making an
immense before tax profit for "a few days' work" of a grand or so. His few
days' work start with designing ads, business cards and similar little
whatnots that are part of today's business world. Oh, yeah. And paying for
them. Then he has several phone calls to field while setting up a wedding to
shoot, starting with call #1, running through contract signing time and
engagement photos (if any), and going from there to the wedding a few hours
early, where he unpacks and prowls around to make sure he has all the sites
still in his mind from his attendance at rehearsal.

Then he spends two to four or six hours shooting photos to the best of his
ability, and goes back to the shop to spend whatever time is needed making
those photos as close to perfect as possible...maybe two more days, on top
of at least two days work.

So we're looking at something like a before tax profit of a grand, for 4-1/2
days a week of hard, creative (one hopes) work.

Not bad. 52K a year, from which you get to buy all your bennies, pay Unka
Sammy taxes (and both sides of Social Security, which amounts to 15.3% of
the after expenses total). Walk around bucks MAY be as high as $750.

Not bad for a few days' easy work, eh? And, of course, there's no pressure,
no interference, and it's a wonderful life. Nuts. I'd rather shoot rattlers
around my ankles than do weddings. Come to think of it, I've done both, and
the rattlers were easier to control. Just drop the temperature in the room.

Divorce photography is a hell of a lot easier. You may even get to mess
around with the divorcee!

Bandicoot wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
I've always wanted to go into divorce photography....


Now look, you've made me spill my tea...

ROTFL...


Peter