20D Battery Grip and AA's

In article ,
"Scott Evans" wrote:

Where does this come from? Is this your opinion or based upon information
read elsewhere? Your own experience? Huh?

I also read that some Canon 20D grips loaded with 2 batteries discharge
quicker than a standard 20D with a single battery, due to some
design-fault...

Sorry can't remember where I read this, but the dpreview.com 20D forum
should provide some more (first hand) info.

Lourens

David H. Lipman wrote:
Comparing the specifications from Energizer [http://www.energizer.com]. From the POV of the
device requiring the power, there is no difference. The two are rated at the SAME voltage
(and I had thought that Lithium was .1v higher)


Let me see ...

[snip long list]

So, Lithium last longer, have a wider useable temperature range and weigh less. In
conclusion based upon comparing specifications for different batteries, use of Lithium AA
batteries is not and should not be considered contrindicated.

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/fea..._explained.htm
claims different: the internal resistance of Alkaline batteries
can be used by application as a current limiter. With Lithiums
having a lower internal resistance, some devices may draw too much
current due to the lower overall resistance and cook themselves.

Oh, and it says that Alkaline AAs drain from 1.5 to 1.2 Volts ---
while Lithium AAs stay at 1.7V.


That all means that e.g. the handgrip for the Canon 20D (6 AA
batteries or 1 or 2 of the proprietary 7.2V Lithium-Ion blocks)
would be 9V. Or, more exactly, 7.2V under load. --- exactly
the voltage of the proprietary Lithium-Ion (!= Lithium) block!
(Fancy that!) But with Lithium AAs you'd get 10.2 Volts, which
just may be too high, and coupled with much the lower internal
resistance a a much higher current may flow.

And then there is the max allowed current which is well below
short circuit current.


Dave
BTW: The information I found on the VC-9 "The blurb advises you not to use AA zinc carbon
batteries..."

Probably due to too high internal resistance for satisfying
operation. Canon's 20D's handgrip states the same.

See also http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_Batteries.html


Minolta specifically states "Specially designed for the 9, 7, the multi-function grip lets
you hold and use the camera vertically with the same ease the camera body gives you during
horizontal operation. The grip allows you to use a choice of AA-size or lithium batteries to
run the camera (the camera by itself accepts only lithium batteries)."

Do they mean rechargable Lithium-Ion or non-rechargeable
Lithium batteries?


According to
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/x91.pdf
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/e91.pdf
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/EN91.pdf
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/3315wc.pdf

each down to 1.0V
Photoflash Digital Camera
L91 Lithium 180m 300m [1]
X91 Alkaline 50m 50m
E91 Alkaline 60m 30m
EN91 Alkaline 60m 40m
3-315WC Alkaline 60m 45m

As you can see, Alkaline batteries handle burst drains (much)
better than semi-constant drains --- and the reverse is true for
Lithium batteries ...

[1] Voltage under load up to 1.6V --- look at the diagrams!


-Wolfgang

WOW...well now...that has been quite the thread over the course of last few
days. Didnt realize what a controversy I would start.

Here is what I can deduce from this thread...and it is pretty much summed up
in the information posted from the Eveready website.

Did anyone else notice the millamp output of the lithiums?
3500!

THAT in itself may be the very reason Canon essentially says NO to using
them in the grip. Maybe I will burn a set in the grip on my way to dropping
off the grip at Canon repair...for the BIGGER issue with the grip, voltage
cutout and such. That way...I can just let them deal with the damage the
lithiums MAY do...then again...maybe that level of amperage will cook the
20D too.

Yeah...on and on it goes. If only Nikon offered a battery grip on the D70...
"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
Scott Evans wrote:
Read Canon batter grip documents.
Lithiums are not meant to work in this grip.
I swear to God.

Minolta too. No Lithium batts in the VC-9 grip.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:

So, Lithium last longer, have a wider useable temperature range and weigh less. In
conclusion based upon comparing specifications for different batteries, use of Lithium AA
batteries is not and should not be considered contrindicated.


http://www.flashlightreviews.com/fea..._explained.htm
claims different: the internal resistance of Alkaline batteries
can be used by application as a current limiter. With Lithiums
having a lower internal resistance, some devices may draw too much
current due to the lower overall resistance and cook themselves.

That all means that e.g. the handgrip for the Canon 20D (6 AA
batteries or 1 or 2 of the proprietary 7.2V Lithium-Ion blocks)
would be 9V. Or, more exactly, 7.2V under load. --- exactly
the voltage of the proprietary Lithium-Ion (!= Lithium) block!
(Fancy that!) But with Lithium AAs you'd get 10.2 Volts, which
just may be too high, and coupled with much the lower internal
resistance a a much higher current may flow.


That's as reasonable an expalantion as any, and validates prior speculation the
the voltage was too high or the start current was too high. The voltage gets
it. wrt the Minolta, 4 AA's at 1.7V would be 7.2V. Well above the nominal 6V.
Measuring a new/unused pair of CR123A's I get 3.24+3.25=6.49V. Very tolerable.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

Scott Evans wrote:

WOW...well now...that has been quite the thread over the course of last few
days. Didnt realize what a controversy I would start.

Here is what I can deduce from this thread...and it is pretty much summed up
in the information posted from the Eveready website.

Did anyone else notice the millamp output of the lithiums?
3500!

That's a capabilty, not what it gives unless the circuit draws that much. I can
understand, however that a circuit that is designed to expect Alkaline batt
performance with alkaline internal resistance will draw too much with the
slightly higher V and abilty to provide amps like the Li's.


THAT in itself may be the very reason Canon essentially says NO to using
them in the grip. Maybe I will burn a set in the grip on my way to dropping

It's probably not the grip that gets damaged. It's just a box and some
switches. It is likely the camera that would be damaged by the v-a from the Li's.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

I don't have sufficient information to make a continued argument but at least my elementary
math is better.

Dave



"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
|
|
| That's as reasonable an expalantion as any, and validates prior speculation the
| the voltage was too high or the start current was too high. The voltage gets
| it. wrt the Minolta, 4 AA's at 1.7V would be 7.2V. Well above the nominal 6V.
| Measuring a new/unused pair of CR123A's I get 3.24+3.25=6.49V. Very tolerable.
|
| --
| -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
| -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
| -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
| -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

David H. Lipman wrote:

I don't have sufficient information to make a continued argument but at least my elementary
math is better.


Ooops! 6.8V then. A bit high, but not so bad... so as Wolfgang suggests, the
real culprit is likely the sustained voltage at that level with attendant
current is what the manuf. is qorried about...


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
|
|
| That's as reasonable an expalantion as any, and validates prior speculation the
| the voltage was too high or the start current was too high. The voltage gets
| it. wrt the Minolta, 4 AA's at 1.7V would be 7.2V. Well above the nominal 6V.
| Measuring a new/unused pair of CR123A's I get 3.24+3.25=6.49V. Very tolerable.
|
| --
| -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
| -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
| -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
| -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.




--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

I had the grip so that I could use a couple of 511A's but it was
displaying incorrect battery levels and then saying the batteries were
dead. Pop off the grip and put a 511A into the camera and *POOF!*,
the battery has recharged to full again...

When I sent the grip back, I also gave up the thought of limping on
AA's so I bought 4 batteries
(http://www.sterlingtek.com/ln03-cano...11-dlc511.html) and a
charger (http://www.sterlingtek.com/canbp511acba.html) from
SterlingTek instead. I heard good reviews of their batteries so I
thought I would give them a try. What can I say? Now I have 4
batteries that each shoot longer than my original Canon 511A battery
and I have a charger that works at home or on the road in any
cigarette lighter. Will I ever have to "limp" home? Nope. Never.
Now I just need a laptop or something for emptying the compact flash
cards...


On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:36:55 -0500, "Scott Evans"
wrote:

Just got my new 20D with battery grip. But I have quickly discovered that I
can only get one shot out of a fresh set of alkalines installed in battery
grip and then upon the next shutter release...I get a blank display and dead
battery indicator flashing. I called Canon Canada...and their phone rep told
me that the tech behind said I need to use high milliamp output batteries.
Obviously referring to rechargeable NiMH. But why do they claim it will run
for about 80 shots on regular alkalines??? I find this VERY disappointing
for one big reason I got the grip is to have that "limp home" ability with
widely available alkalines!
Anyone else having this problem?

My 20D with Battery grip does the same thing but I just open the
battery compartment and pop the batteries out and back in and then it
registers as it should. It's a strange quirk but I prefer the battery
grip because of the vertical controls so I just work around it. My 10D
with grip never did this.
Any other 20D users with grip run into ths?

Art

Fyimo wrote:
My 20D with Battery grip does the same thing but I just open the
battery compartment and pop the batteries out and back in and then it
registers as it should. It's a strange quirk but I prefer the battery
grip because of the vertical controls so I just work around it. My 10D
with grip never did this.
Any other 20D users with grip run into ths?

Art

From a post I made late last year:

"At the original evaluation, I took a couple pictures in each
configuration (New alkalines, fresh NImH in battery grip). Now I have
done this:

Duracell AA Alkalines:
Loaded right up again, took a dozen RAW picts, turned it off. Turned it
on, got the low battery flasher, turned it off, removed the battery
magazine, reinserted it, turned it on, got a half-battery picture on the
LCD, took forty Large Fine pictures (nearly all with flash), got the low
battery flasher, couldn't get anything else under any conditions.

Panasonic 2100 mAh rechargables, fresh from the chargers:
Loaded right up, took a dozen RAW pictures, turned it off. Turned it on,
got the half-battery picture, took six bursts of Large Fine pictures,
each burst running until it wouldn't take any more while it wrote 20 or
21 pictures to disk. Before the last burst got the low battery flasher,
turned it off, turned it on, got the half-battery picture, took the last
burst. Got the flasher, turned it off, turned it on, nothing. Removed
the magazine, reinserted it, got the half-battery sign, took three
pictures, got the flasher. Same routine three more times, nine more
pictures. Removed the magazine, reinserted, not enough power to get any
function. Inserted the 511As and the second picture filled the
plain-vanilla Sandisk 512meg card, using up 481 plus overhead, 212
pictures total (I may have miscounted the RAWs).

So, they both worked, albeit with a bit more hassle than the Canon
"Packs". I suspect the 2500mAh AAs will perform proportionately, perhaps
230-240 Large Fines before packing it in.

So I ordered another 511A and the dual-charger. If you use two 511As in
the grip-pack, I reckon when they quit neither will be useful until
charged, and you'll never get back in phase unless you can charge both
at once, while using the single Pack until they catch up.

Anyone know how many Large Fines you can get from a 511 or a pair? Mine
still show "full" after about 400 total pictures.

=======
I meant to mention that the Panasonic cells took very few minutes to
recharge fully after this episode. I take that to mean the Canon setup
cannot utilize their potential. In my Nikon CP grips they last a long,
long time, and take more than an hour to recharge.

=======
Resp'y


--
Frank ess"

====================================
=================================
"
On January 15, in a "20D battery question" thread, I posted:
"I bought two
"For BP511 Replacement
Li-ion Battery 7.4V 1800mAh"
From Sterlingtek via Amazon.com

The order was for 1390mAh batteries, but 1800 was what Sterlingtek
delivered. They were $11.99 each, and arrived a week or so after the
order was placed. Shipping and handling was $9.98, pretty much at the
upper limit, my view, but the cost for each battery was $16.98.

When I received them I measured their voltages out of the package:
7.64 and 7.67

I charged them in the
"Canon
COMPACT POWER ADAPTER
CA-PS400"
which is like the regular charger, except it has two receptacles
side-by-side, and an outlet for the power cord allowing use of the
camera in an AC environment.

They charged one after the other, left to right: one light blinked;
changing batteries from one receptacle to the other, the blinking light
did not follow the battery. After charging (and the at-least-an-hour at
no-blink recommended for the second battery; meaning the first battery
got its own charge and the additional time-in-receptacle corresponding
to the charge time for the second battery and its subsequent hour), I
measured their voltages:
8.33 and 8.11, respectively.

After five days on the shelf:
8.30 and 8.10


That's it. Science marches on."

Now I can report a week's use of those two batteries has passed 1100
images and the full-battery symbol is still full. After 500 images they
were at 7.96 and 8.00 volts.

If I were prone to anxiety, it would be assuaged."
=================================

020805:
I now have about 1800 shots on that pair of SterlingTek 511s, and the
half-battery has been showing for the past 200 or so.

Voltages are 7.82 and 7.84

--
Frank ess