20D Battery Grip and AA's

David H. Lipman wrote:

The OP is not using Lithium batteries. The Canon stock rechargeable batteries are Lithium
and a .1v higher voltage is insignificant. If it was significant why would Canon uses
Lithium in the BP-511/511A/512/514.

A Camera, *any* Camera will work with Lithium AA batteries for the same reason all the CD
Players, Radios, Toothbrushes, etc, have worked happily with Lithium and for a longer period
than Alkaline batteries do.

There appears to be something particular about Lithium batteries in AA format.

My cameras take lithium for the main battery compartment but the manual for my
VC-9 grip says not to use lithium AA's in the grip. The manual for the grip
states that the compatible batteries a

CR123A Lithium (two)
2CR5 6V Lithium (one)
AA alkaline (four)
AA Ni-Cd (four)
further, Two CR123A's and one 2CR5 can be in the grip at the same time (a
switch on the grip selects either set, or the in camera batt).

Then the grip manual states, clearly: "AA lithium batteries cannot be used".

So, something about AA lithiums specifically is funny enough that the
manufacturer does not want them installed.

I've never heard a convincing reason why. 4 batts in series * 0.1 V = 0.4V
over... but on 6V that's not much. One hypothesis is that camera turn on causes
a current rush that is too much when AA-Li are used. Who knows?

IAC, I will not try it on my camera.

Cheers,
Alan.


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

"David H. Lipman" wrote in
news:sK0xd.203$L7.164@trnddc05:

Maybe Doug, but, I can't find any real documentary information barring
the use of AA Lithium batteries.

If I had that unit, I would be using AA Lithium Batteries and I bet
there would be no problems in doing so.

Personally, I don't think that would be a good idea!

Lithium AA Cells produce about 1.6V each and 6 x 1.6 = 9.6V
Canon BP-511 is rated at 7.4V
Ni-MH AA Cells produce about 1.2V each and 6 x 1.2 = 7.2V
Alkaline AA Cells produce less than Ni-MH under a load, so they will be
lucky to provide 7V.

Canon say not to use Lithium AA cells.

So how do you have a better understanding than Canon about what the 20D is
designed to tolerate in its power input?


--
Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 12-Nov-04)
"There are 10 types of people, those that
understand binary and those that don't"



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Comparing the specifications from Energizer [http://www.energizer.com]. From the POV of the
device requiring the power, there is no difference. The two are rated at the SAME voltage
(and I had thought that Lithium was .1v higher)

However, the operating ambient temperature range is wider...
Operating Temp: -18ºC to 55ºC (0ºF to 130ºF) - Alkaline
Operating Temp: -40ºC to 60ºC (-40ºF to 140ºF) - Lithium --best
Discharge @ 0.1C: -20ºC to 50ºC (- 4ºF to 122ºF) - NiMH
Discharge @ 0.1C: -20ºC to 50ºC (- 4ºF to 122ºF) - NiCd

And the capacity to hold its charge is better...
Average Capacity: 2,850 mAh (to 0.8 volts) - Alkaline
Average Capacity: 3000 mAh (to 1.0 volts) - Lithium --best
Average Capacity: 2500 mAh (to 1.0 volts) - NiMH
Rated Capacity: 650 mAh (to 1.0 Volt) - NiCd

And its weight is lighter...
Average Weight: 23.0 grams - Alkaline
Average Weight: 14.5 grams - Lithium --best
Average Weight: 28.1 grams - NiMH
Average Weight: 22.7 grams - NiCd

ENERGIZER NO. X91
-----------------------------------
Chemical System: Alkaline
Zinc-Manganese Dioxide (Zn/MnO 2)
(No Added Mercury or Cadmium)
Designation: ANSI-15A, IEC-LR6
Battery Voltage: 1.5 Volts
Internal Resistance: 146 Milliohms (Fresh)
Operating Temp: -18ºC to 55ºC (0ºF to 130ºF)
Average Capacity: 2,850 mAh (to 0.8 volts)
(Rated capacity at 25 mA continuous drain)
Average Weight: 23.0 grams (0.8 oz.)
Volume: 8.1 cubic centimeters (0.5 cubic inch)
Cell: One No. 3-315 (size 'AA')
Jacket: Plastic Label
Shelf Life: 7 years (80% of rated capacity)

ENERGIZER NO. L91
-------------------------------
Chemical System: Lithium
Lithium/Iron Disulfide (Li/FeS 2)
Designation: ANSI-15LF, IEC-FR6
Battery Voltage: 1.5 Volts
Average Weight: 14.5 grams (0.5 oz.)
Volume: 8.0 cubic centimeters (0.5 cubic inch)
Storage Temp: -40ºC to 60ºC (-40ºF to 140ºF)
Operating Temp: -40ºC to 60ºC (-40ºF to 140ºF)
Average Capacity: 3000 mAh (to 1.0 volts)
(Rated capacity at 200 mA drain.)
Max Discharge: 2 Amps Continuous
3 Amps Pulse (2 seconds max)
Lithium Content: Less than 1 gram (0.04 oz.) per cell
Jacket: Non-magnetic Plastic Label
Transportation: Meets requirments of 49CFR 173.185 (b)

ENERGIZER NO. NH15
--------------------------
Description: Rechargeable 1.2V
Chemical System: Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH)
Designation: ANSI-1.2H2
Battery Voltage: 1.2 Volts
Average Capacity: 2500 mAh (to 1.0 volts)
(Based on 500 mA (0.2C) discharge rate)
Average Weight: 28.1 grams (1.0 oz.)
Volume: 8.3 cubic centimeters (0.5 cubic inch)
Jacket: Plastic Label

ENERGIZER NO. CH15
-----------------------------
Chemical System: Nickel-Cadmium (NiCd)
Designation:ANSI / NEDA-10015, IEC-KR157/51
Battery Voltage: 1.2 Volts
Millimeters Inches Average Weight: 22.7 grams (0.8 oz.)
Volume: 8.3 cubic centimeters (0.51 cubic inch)
Terminals: Flat Contact
Rated Capacity: (to 1.0 Volt): 650 mAh
(Based on 130 mA (0.2C) discharge rate)
Maximum Charge Rate: 195 mA
Jacket: Plastic


Now look at the specs on; CR123A and 2CR5

ENERGIZER NO. EL123
-------------------------------
Chemical System: Lithium
Lithium/Manganese Dioxide (Li/MnO2)
Designation: ANSI / NEDA-5018LC, IEC-CR17345
Battery Voltage: 3.0 Volts
Average Weight: 16.8 grams (0.59 oz.)
Volume: 7.1 cubic centimeters (0.4 cubic inch)
Storage Temp: -40ºC to 60ºC (-40ºF to 140ºF)
Operating Temp: -40ºC to 60ºC (-40ºF to 140ºF)
Average Capacity: 1500 mAh to 2.0 volts
(Rated Capacity at 100 ohms at 21ºC)
Maximum Reverse
Charge Current: 2 microampere
Max Discharge: 1500 mA continuous - 3500 mA pulse
Cells: One 2/3A


ENERGIZER NO. 123
-------------------------------
Chemical System: Lithium
Lithium/Manganese Dioxide (Li/MnO2)
Designation: ANSI / NEDA-5018LC, IEC-CR17345
Battery Voltage: 3.0 Volts
Average Weight: 15.5 grams (0.55 oz.)
Volume: 7.1 cubic centimeters (0.4 cubic inch)
Average Capacity: 1300 mAh to 2.0 volts
(Rated Capacity at 100 ohms at 21ºC)
Maximum Reverse
Charge Current: 2 microampere
Max Discharge: 1500 mA continuous - 3500 mA pulse
Cells: One 2/3A

ENERGIZER NO. 2CR5 (EL2CR5)
---------
Chemical System: Lithium
Lithium/Manganese Dioxide (Li/MnO2)
Designation: ANSI / NEDA-5032LC, IEC-2CR5
Battery Voltage: 6.0 Volts
Average Weight: 39.5 grams (1.39 oz.)
Volume: 26.0 cubic centimeters (1.6 cubic inch)
Average Capacity: 1500 mAh to 3.5 volts
(Rated Capacity at 200 ohms at 21ºC)
Maximum Reverse
Charge Current: 2 microampere
Max Discharge: 1500 mA continuous - 3500 mA pulse
Cells: Two 2/3A-P
~~~~
Information obtained from data specifications posted in PDF format for Energizer models:
X91, L91, CH15, NH15, 123, EL123 and ELCR5 on
http://data.energizer.com/SearchResult.aspx

So, Lithium last longer, have a wider useable temperature range and weigh less. In
conclusion based upon comparing specifications for different batteries, use of Lithium AA
batteries is not and should not be considered contrindicated.
Note: Energizer CH15 (NiCd) have been discontinued due to environmental concerns of
Dadmium - http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/CH15.pdf )

Dave
BTW: The information I found on the VC-9 "The blurb advises you not to use AA zinc carbon
batteries..."
Minolta specifically states "Specially designed for the 9, 7, the multi-function grip lets
you hold and use the camera vertically with the same ease the camera body gives you during
horizontal operation. The grip allows you to use a choice of AA-size or lithium batteries to
run the camera (the camera by itself accepts only lithium batteries)."


"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...

| There appears to be something particular about Lithium batteries in AA format.
|
| My cameras take lithium for the main battery compartment but the manual for my
| VC-9 grip says not to use lithium AA's in the grip. The manual for the grip
| states that the compatible batteries a
|
| CR123A Lithium (two)
| 2CR5 6V Lithium (one)
| AA alkaline (four)
| AA Ni-Cd (four)
| further, Two CR123A's and one 2CR5 can be in the grip at the same time (a
| switch on the grip selects either set, or the in camera batt).
|
| Then the grip manual states, clearly: "AA lithium batteries cannot be used".
|
| So, something about AA lithiums specifically is funny enough that the
| manufacturer does not want them installed.
|
| I've never heard a convincing reason why. 4 batts in series * 0.1 V = 0.4V
| over... but on 6V that's not much. One hypothesis is that camera turn on causes
| a current rush that is too much when AA-Li are used. Who knows?
|
| IAC, I will not try it on my camera.
|
| Cheers,
| Alan.
|
|
| --
| -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
| -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
| -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
| -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

"David H. Lipman" wrote in message
news:No2xd.2740$tG3.1534@trnddc02...
Comparing the specifications from Energizer [http://www.energizer.com].
From the POV of the
device requiring the power, there is no difference. The two are rated at
the SAME voltage
(and I had thought that Lithium was .1v higher)

So tell me David...
Who will be the first to put forbiden batteries in their new camera?

ME !

There aren't any devices I own that use AA batteries where I don't use Lithium. When I was
photographing a Phan Phest a taper didn't have spare batteries for their 4mm DAT tape drive.
I gave them a four pack of Energizer Lithium AA. They were surprised how long they lasted
and thanked me -- four months later.

It is too bad I don't own the indicated devices :-(

Dave




"Ryadia" wrote in message ...
|
| "David H. Lipman" wrote in message
| news:No2xd.2740$tG3.1534@trnddc02...
| Comparing the specifications from Energizer [http://www.energizer.com].
| From the POV of the
| device requiring the power, there is no difference. The two are rated at
| the SAME voltage
| (and I had thought that Lithium was .1v higher)
|
| So tell me David...
| Who will be the first to put forbiden batteries in their new camera?
|
|

I should add...
I just found the pamphlet for my flash unit, Quantaray QTB-9500A.
It states, - "For best results, use Alkaline batteries"

However, I have been using Energizer Lithium AA batteries since I bought it. :-)

Dave




"Ryadia" wrote in message ...
|
| "David H. Lipman" wrote in message
| news:No2xd.2740$tG3.1534@trnddc02...
| Comparing the specifications from Energizer [http://www.energizer.com].
| From the POV of the
| device requiring the power, there is no difference. The two are rated at
| the SAME voltage
| (and I had thought that Lithium was .1v higher)
|
| So tell me David...
| Who will be the first to put forbiden batteries in their new camera?
|
|

David H. Lipman wrote:

ME !

There aren't any devices I own that use AA batteries where I don't use Lithium. When I was
photographing a Phan Phest a taper didn't have spare batteries for their 4mm DAT tape drive.
I gave them a four pack of Energizer Lithium AA. They were surprised how long they lasted
and thanked me -- four months later.


You can hardly go wrong heeding the advice of the manufacturer to avoid a
certain battery type.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

David H. Lipman wrote:

BTW: The information I found on the VC-9 "The blurb advises you not to use AA zinc carbon
batteries..."
Minolta specifically states "Specially designed for the 9, 7, the multi-function grip lets
you hold and use the camera vertically with the same ease the camera body gives you during
horizontal operation. The grip allows you to use a choice of AA-size or lithium batteries to
run the camera (the camera by itself accepts only lithium batteries)."

Please provide the link for the info above.

I have the VC-9 grip, which is designed solely for the Maxxum 9. The Maxxum 7
has a different grip VC-7, the contact connector being ~2 inches off and the
hard alignment pin near the shutter release being over an inch away from where
it is on the VC-9.
VC-9 grip: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/241999.jpg
VC-7 grip: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/212609.jpg

The VC-9 and the manual for same are 8 inches to the right of my keyboard as I
type this. The information I give below is exact. Further, on the grip itself
is repeated the admonition: "Do not use AA-size lithium and carbon-zinc batteries."

There is (as clearly stated below) no restriction on CR123A and 2CR5 lithium
batteries in the grip. The restriction is for the AA format alone.

The same restriction applies to the VC-7 grip for the Maxxum 7.

The restriction on carbon-zinc does not appear in the manual.

Regardless of the specs for AA-lithium, the restriction against their use on the
Maxxum product and on other (Canon) camera products indicates that there is some
specific issue. I don't know _what_ the issue is. One hypothesis I've read is
that the current surge at start from the AA-Li's is high. I don't know if that
is true.

Cheers,
Alan



| There appears to be something particular about Lithium batteries in AA format.
|
| My cameras take lithium for the main battery compartment but the manual for my
| VC-9 grip says not to use lithium AA's in the grip. The manual for the grip
| states that the compatible batteries a
|
| CR123A Lithium (two)
| 2CR5 6V Lithium (one)
| AA alkaline (four)
| AA Ni-Cd (four)
| further, Two CR123A's and one 2CR5 can be in the grip at the same time (a
| switch on the grip selects either set, or the in camera batt).
|
| Then the grip manual states, clearly: "AA lithium batteries cannot be used".
|


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

http://www.adorama.com/MNVC9.html
http://konicaminolta.com/products/co..._othera.html#k
http://met.open.ac.uk/group/cpv/photo/vc9.html

Dave



"Alan Browne" wrote in message
...
| David H. Lipman wrote:
|
| BTW: The information I found on the VC-9 "The blurb advises you not to use AA zinc
carbon
| batteries..."
| Minolta specifically states "Specially designed for the 9, 7, the multi-function grip
lets
| you hold and use the camera vertically with the same ease the camera body gives you
during
| horizontal operation. The grip allows you to use a choice of AA-size or lithium
batteries to
| run the camera (the camera by itself accepts only lithium batteries)."
|
| Please provide the link for the info above.
|
| I have the VC-9 grip, which is designed solely for the Maxxum 9. The Maxxum 7
| has a different grip VC-7, the contact connector being ~2 inches off and the
| hard alignment pin near the shutter release being over an inch away from where
| it is on the VC-9.
| VC-9 grip: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/241999.jpg
| VC-7 grip: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/212609.jpg
|
| The VC-9 and the manual for same are 8 inches to the right of my keyboard as I
| type this. The information I give below is exact. Further, on the grip itself
| is repeated the admonition: "Do not use AA-size lithium and carbon-zinc batteries."
|
| There is (as clearly stated below) no restriction on CR123A and 2CR5 lithium
| batteries in the grip. The restriction is for the AA format alone.
|
| The same restriction applies to the VC-7 grip for the Maxxum 7.
|
| The restriction on carbon-zinc does not appear in the manual.
|
| Regardless of the specs for AA-lithium, the restriction against their use on the
| Maxxum product and on other (Canon) camera products indicates that there is some
| specific issue. I don't know _what_ the issue is. One hypothesis I've read is
| that the current surge at start from the AA-Li's is high. I don't know if that
| is true.
|
| Cheers,
| Alan
|
|
|
| | There appears to be something particular about Lithium batteries in AA format.
| |
| | My cameras take lithium for the main battery compartment but the manual for my
| | VC-9 grip says not to use lithium AA's in the grip. The manual for the grip
| | states that the compatible batteries a
| |
| | CR123A Lithium (two)
| | 2CR5 6V Lithium (one)
| | AA alkaline (four)
| | AA Ni-Cd (four)
| | further, Two CR123A's and one 2CR5 can be in the grip at the same time (a
| | switch on the grip selects either set, or the in camera batt).
| |
| | Then the grip manual states, clearly: "AA lithium batteries cannot be used".
| |
|
|
| --
| -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
| -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
| -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
| -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

David H. Lipman wrote:

http://www.adorama.com/MNVC9.html
They are quite simply wrong. (I'll write to them).

Oddly enough, Adorama have the following link too:
http://www.adorama.com/MNVC7.html?se...VC-7&item_no=1

and comparing the two images it is quite clear that they are not possible
interchangeable.

Also see the two photos of the grip for the Max 9 and Max 7 I linked to from B&H.
VC-9 grip: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/241999.jpg
VC-7 grip: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/items/212609.jpg

http://konicaminolta.com/products/co..._othera.html#k
They (Minolta!) are right because they specify two different grips:
"Vertical Control Grip VC-9 (9) / VC-7 (7)"
states also "The grip allows you to use a choice of AA-size or lithium
batteries", doesn't state that the AA's are Li.

http://met.open.ac.uk/group/cpv/photo/vc9.html
Doesn't mention the Maxxum 7 at all (and rightly so).

Again, I have the product and the manual. I have two friends with Maxxum 7's
and grips. I think I know of what I speak. And if Minolta say "don't do dat"
then I don't do dat. The camera body was CAD$2200 when I bought it and US$1059
today. So I don't do dat.

I suggest with all kindness that if Canon say "don't do dat" they proabably have
good reason that is likely similar to Minolta's reason to say "Don't do dat."

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.