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  #141  
Old July 2nd 17, 07:48 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,161
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

On 7/2/2017 1:10 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:

Windows users infact, do, upgrade, but with the changes MS has
foisted upon them with Windows 8/8.1 and now, Windows 10, many are
opting not to do so. PC based systems until the past few years with
MS have been about user choice and user options. Unlike Apple.

windows users in general do *not* upgrade because it's a pain in the
ass.


Yup! It's much easier to purchase a new machine.

which is what people normally do, because by the time they outgrow what
they have, the entire machine needs replacing, not just one component.


Wrong.


not wrong at all.

very few people upgrade their computers.

Another survey.


the vast majority replace their computer, then give the old one to
someone who doesn't need the latest and greatest, like their kids, the
front desk receptionist, etc.


More surveys. Was this one on a bus, or in a nursing home.

they want a faster cpu, faster gpu, faster ssd, faster wifi, faster
usb, bluetooth le, higher resolution and wider gamut display, etc., and
by the time they upgrade everything, the entire machine has been
gutted.

it's cheaper and easier to buy a new system, and it comes with a whole
lot more too.

For a Mac that's probably true. Not always for a Windows machine.


it's true for all computers, particularly windows because they become
obsolete so incredibly fast.

in general, macs have a far longer useful life than windows systems.
much longer.

I admit I have never upgraded a Mac. With my Lenovo, it's trivial to
increase HD capacity.

hds are old and slow and they *can't* be upgraded to the latest (and
fastest) ssds.


Does one always need the latest and fastest.


then no need to upgrade, is there?

The fact is that HDDs are
regularly upgraded on Windows machines.


actually, they aren't, but regardless, it's easy to do that on a mac
too.

With my old HP, which last time I looked was a
Windows machine, I repaired and upgraded several times, to expand HD
capacity, until I decided to get a new machine.

last time i looked, the microsoft surface laptop was a windows machine.

try to upgrade it, or even just to fix something. good luck.

you have to physically *cut* the keyboard off with a *knife*, then
*break* the ultrasonic welds inside. it ain't going back together.
ever.

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+Teardown/92915
Verdict: The Surface Laptop is not a laptop. It1s a glue-filled
monstrosity. There is nothing about it that is upgradable or
long-lasting, and it literally can1t be opened without destroying it.
(Show us the procedure, Microsoft, we1d love to be wrong.)

https://www.windowscentral.com/surfa...ptop-get-teard
own-treatment-earn-low-marks-repairability
It's impossible to get into the guts of the machine without cutting
into, and subsequently ruining, the Alcantara. Once inside, soldering
is the real enemy, however: the CPU, RAM, and onboard storage are all
soldered to the motherboard, which puts the kibosh on custom
upgrades. Meanwhile, iFixit notes, the headphone jack and battery are
also very difficult to access and replace.


You are the only one talking about a surface machine. I specifically
said HP. You are obviously assuming that all Windows machines are MS Surface


you are the only one talking about the hp machine.

you are obviously assuming all windows machines are like the hp.

breaking news: they aren't.

there are a *lot* of windows computers that are *much* harder, if not
impossible to upgrade.

ultrabooks have soldered memory and internal batteries, and in fact,
some of them were that way that *before* apple did it.

the microsoft surface studio (the big one, that pivots) is difficult to
open and upgrade.

not that it matters one bit.


Then why did you bring that up.


you're the one who brought up upgradeability. not me.


Yup! for me it's a go, no go point, whether you like it or not. It has
paid off in the past, and hopefully will continue to do so in the
future. Meanwhile, I paid a lot less money for my machine, then I would
have paid for a Mac, and it has exactly what I need.


the reality is that people *use* their computers for actual work.

very, very few dick around inside or upgrade it.

now, if all you do is dick around inside, then buy something that can
be easily opened and easily dicked, and while you're dicking around
inside, everyone else is doing real work and you're falling behind.

More diversionary blabber. You won't even admit that a lot of people
think that ability to easily upgrade is a purchase factor. News, for a
lot of people it is.


oh, and be sure to get the memory sticks that light up. they even make
memory sticks with rgb leds for any colour you want, the absolute
ultimate in dick:
https://gskill.com/en/press/view/g-s...tionary-rgb-li
ghting-ddr4-with-trident-z-rgb-series

modern products of all kinds are optimized
for actual use, not to be opened up. surprising as it may seem, people
spend significantly more time *using* the stuff they buy versus opening
it up and looking at the insides.


True. And include the fact that needs are not static, and often it's
nice to be able to upgrade, rather than purchase a whole new machine.


macs can easily be upgraded, some of which are easier than many windows
systems.

the old powermac g4 was one of the easiest, no tools needed, and it's
even fully operational with the side door open:

https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/6j1Fmc6PY2u6c6GG.huge

it turned out that few people cared.

Another airline survey.

--
PeterN
  #142  
Old July 2nd 17, 07:54 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,161
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

On 7/2/2017 1:10 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:


If the Dell 5K is anything like the the two 25" UP2516D screens that I
have just bought there is an awful lot of memory and computing power
inside to deal with multiple color spaces etc. It's not just a bare
display. I have no idea of how the Apple 5K compares in this respect
or how it handles the equivalent problems.

whatever is needed is part of the imac itself.

And wo makes that decision.

what kind of ****ed up question is that?? the designers of the product
decide what goes in it, the same as every other product on the planet.

Only a ****ed up mind would answer that way. My rhetorical question
obviously referred to what is needed by the user.

the user doesn't design the hardware.


Users determine their needs.


nobody said otherwise.


Same record you've played before.

you're very confused.



--
PeterN
  #143  
Old July 2nd 17, 08:04 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

In article , PeterN
wrote:

the user doesn't design the hardware.

Users determine their needs.


nobody said otherwise.


Same record you've played before.


nope. i don't play records at all.
  #144  
Old July 2nd 17, 11:19 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 12:24:55 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

for instance, the retina imac 5k costs about the same as a dell 5k
display, which is just a display, no computer. you have to add the
cost of the computer, which makes it quite a bit more expensive
than the imac.

You aren't making a fair comparison, here.

oh yes i am.

If the Dell 5K is anything like the the two 25" UP2516D screens that I
have just bought there is an awful lot of memory and computing power
inside to deal with multiple color spaces etc. It's not just a bare
display. I have no idea of how the Apple 5K compares in this respect
or how it handles the equivalent problems.

whatever is needed is part of the imac itself.


That's right, so how nay color spaces does it recognise and how are
they calibrated?


as many as you want (within the limits of the panel) and with a
hardware puck.


So within the limits of the panel, how many color spaces does it
recognise and how are they calibrated?

your mistake is assuming dell is a reference of some sort. it's not.


I quote it because I know it and it's general technology is typical of
other screens that use an internal LUT for screen profiling. Further,
as you say, it is made by LG as is the Apple 5k display.

It occured to me that being an integrated computer/monitor the Apple
5k is likely to incorporate a LUT within the computer and not need all
that stuff that separate LUT monitors require to function. But
https://www.damiensymonds.net/cal_i1DP_mac.html implies that it merely
uses the matrix style of ICC profile. This implies it may be simpler
device than the Dell from the point of view of color management. I had
hoped you may have been able to enlighten me.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #145  
Old July 2nd 17, 11:21 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 13:10:33 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , PeterN
wrote:


If the Dell 5K is anything like the the two 25" UP2516D screens that I
have just bought there is an awful lot of memory and computing power
inside to deal with multiple color spaces etc. It's not just a bare
display. I have no idea of how the Apple 5K compares in this respect
or how it handles the equivalent problems.

whatever is needed is part of the imac itself.

And wo makes that decision.

what kind of ****ed up question is that?? the designers of the product
decide what goes in it, the same as every other product on the planet.

Only a ****ed up mind would answer that way. My rhetorical question
obviously referred to what is needed by the user.

the user doesn't design the hardware.


Users determine their needs.


nobody said otherwise.


But users don't always (often?) get what they want.

you're very confused.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #146  
Old July 3rd 17, 12:19 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

If the Dell 5K is anything like the the two 25" UP2516D screens that I
have just bought there is an awful lot of memory and computing power
inside to deal with multiple color spaces etc. It's not just a bare
display. I have no idea of how the Apple 5K compares in this respect
or how it handles the equivalent problems.

whatever is needed is part of the imac itself.

And wo makes that decision.

what kind of ****ed up question is that?? the designers of the product
decide what goes in it, the same as every other product on the planet.

Only a ****ed up mind would answer that way. My rhetorical question
obviously referred to what is needed by the user.

the user doesn't design the hardware.

Users determine their needs.


nobody said otherwise.


But users don't always (often?) get what they want.


nobody said they did.

however, if they don't, it's their own fault for buying the wrong
product. the choice is *entirely* theirs.
  #147  
Old July 3rd 17, 12:19 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

for instance, the retina imac 5k costs about the same as a dell 5k
display, which is just a display, no computer. you have to add the
cost of the computer, which makes it quite a bit more expensive
than the imac.

You aren't making a fair comparison, here.

oh yes i am.

If the Dell 5K is anything like the the two 25" UP2516D screens that I
have just bought there is an awful lot of memory and computing power
inside to deal with multiple color spaces etc. It's not just a bare
display. I have no idea of how the Apple 5K compares in this respect
or how it handles the equivalent problems.

whatever is needed is part of the imac itself.

That's right, so how nay color spaces does it recognise and how are
they calibrated?


as many as you want (within the limits of the panel) and with a
hardware puck.


So within the limits of the panel, how many color spaces does it
recognise and how are they calibrated?


a panel does not recognize colour spaces nor is there a number. it's
just a component out of many.

anything smaller than the physical limit of the panel can be fully
rendered and anything larger will either be clipped or shrunk down,
depending on the user's choice.

your mistake is assuming dell is a reference of some sort. it's not.


I quote it because I know it and it's general technology is typical of
other screens that use an internal LUT for screen profiling.


dell makes run of the mill stuff. nothing they do is cutting edge.

Further,
as you say, it is made by LG as is the Apple 5k display.


the first retina imac was, but i don't know about the current one, nor
does it matter. do you know who fabbed the processor in your microwave
oven? would knowing that make your food taste better? no and no.

what matters is that the current retina 5k display is a dci-p3 wide
gamut retina display that's simply spectacular.

also keep in mind that apple has the clout to get first dibs at the
panels and to have them made to *their* stringent specs (and not just
displays either). dell and others end up with what's left over. they
get the rejects.

It occured to me that being an integrated computer/monitor the Apple
5k is likely to incorporate a LUT within the computer and not need all
that stuff that separate LUT monitors require to function. But
https://www.damiensymonds.net/cal_i1DP_mac.html implies that it merely
uses the matrix style of ICC profile. This implies it may be simpler
device than the Dell from the point of view of color management. I had
hoped you may have been able to enlighten me.


not only simpler, but actually possible.

at the time the 5k retina imac first came out, there was no way to have
a 5k display without needing multiple video cards and the hassles that
go along with that. it was a total cluster****.

apple designed their own timing controller so that they could actually
ship a computer with a 5k display, for a lower price than the
competition and without any of the hassles.

only recently is an external 5k display now possible for everyone else.
  #148  
Old July 3rd 17, 02:00 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,611
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 19:19:11 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

for instance, the retina imac 5k costs about the same as a dell 5k
display, which is just a display, no computer. you have to add the
cost of the computer, which makes it quite a bit more expensive
than the imac.

You aren't making a fair comparison, here.

oh yes i am.

If the Dell 5K is anything like the the two 25" UP2516D screens that I
have just bought there is an awful lot of memory and computing power
inside to deal with multiple color spaces etc. It's not just a bare
display. I have no idea of how the Apple 5K compares in this respect
or how it handles the equivalent problems.

whatever is needed is part of the imac itself.

That's right, so how nay color spaces does it recognise and how are
they calibrated?




as many as you want (within the limits of the panel) and with a
hardware puck.


So within the limits of the panel, how many color spaces does it
recognise and how are they calibrated?


a panel does not recognize colour spaces nor is there a number. it's
just a component out of many.


So there are no preset color spaces. So how then do you go about
configuring the 5k if you want it to display the (say) AdobeRGB color
space?

anything smaller than the physical limit of the panel can be fully
rendered and anything larger will either be clipped or shrunk down,
depending on the user's choice.

your mistake is assuming dell is a reference of some sort. it's not.


Most cars have 4 wheels. So if a new model of car comes out it is
reasonably safe to assume they have 4 wheels.

I quote it because I know it and it's general technology is typical of
other screens that use an internal LUT for screen profiling.


dell makes run of the mill stuff. nothing they do is cutting edge.


Nothing to do with whether it is cutting edge or not. Screens with
built in LUT color management need memory and processors upon which to
run the LUT software. The logical functions of all the relevant
screens are much the same. I just happen to have Dell screens so I
used my particular knowlege of them as reference point to ask you
questions about the Apple 5k. And it was you, in
Message-ID: who raised the
matter of Dell.

Further,
as you say, it is made by LG as is the Apple 5k display.


the first retina imac was, but i don't know about the current one, nor
does it matter. do you know who fabbed the processor in your microwave
oven? would knowing that make your food taste better? no and no.

what matters is that the current retina 5k display is a dci-p3 wide
gamut retina display that's simply spectacular.


And if you want to run AdobeRGB, how do you go about selecting that
color spand how do you go about calibrating the 5k to that color
space?

also keep in mind that apple has the clout to get first dibs at the
panels and to have them made to *their* stringent specs (and not just
displays either). dell and others end up with what's left over. they
get the rejects.


That seems particularly tghe case when you read some of the reviews of
the early models (except Eizo and NEC). But Dell seems to have got
better control at the present. I can't speak for the rest.

It occured to me that being an integrated computer/monitor the Apple
5k is likely to incorporate a LUT within the computer and not need all
that stuff that separate LUT monitors require to function. But
https://www.damiensymonds.net/cal_i1DP_mac.html implies that it merely
uses the matrix style of ICC profile. This implies it may be simpler
device than the Dell from the point of view of color management. I had
hoped you may have been able to enlighten me.


not only simpler, but actually possible.

at the time the 5k retina imac first came out, there was no way to have
a 5k display without needing multiple video cards and the hassles that
go along with that. it was a total cluster****.

apple designed their own timing controller so that they could actually
ship a computer with a 5k display, for a lower price than the
competition and without any of the hassles.

only recently is an external 5k display now possible for everyone else.


That still doesn't tell me anything about the 5k's color management.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #149  
Old July 3rd 17, 02:47 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
Savageduck[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,487
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

On Jul 2, 2017, Eric Stevens wrote
(in ):

On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 19:19:11 -0400,
wrote:

In , Eric Stevens
wrote:

for instance, the retina imac 5k costs about the same as a dell 5k
display, which is just a display, no computer. you have to add the
cost of the computer, which makes it quite a bit more expensive
than the imac.

You aren't making a fair comparison, here.

oh yes i am.

If the Dell 5K is anything like the the two 25" UP2516D screens that I
have just bought there is an awful lot of memory and computing power
inside to deal with multiple color spaces etc. It's not just a bare
display. I have no idea of how the Apple 5K compares in this respect
or how it handles the equivalent problems.

whatever is needed is part of the imac itself.

That's right, so how nay color spaces does it recognise and how are
they calibrated?



as many as you want (within the limits of the panel) and with a
hardware puck.

So within the limits of the panel, how many color spaces does it
recognise and how are they calibrated?


a panel does not recognize colour spaces nor is there a number. it's
just a component out of many.


So there are no preset color spaces. So how then do you go about
configuring the 5k if you want it to display the (say) AdobeRGB color
space?

anything smaller than the physical limit of the panel can be fully
rendered and anything larger will either be clipped or shrunk down,
depending on the user's choice.

your mistake is assuming dell is a reference of some sort. it's not.


Most cars have 4 wheels. So if a new model of car comes out it is
reasonably safe to assume they have 4 wheels.

I quote it because I know it and it's general technology is typical of
other screens that use an internal LUT for screen profiling.


dell makes run of the mill stuff. nothing they do is cutting edge.


Nothing to do with whether it is cutting edge or not. Screens with
built in LUT color management need memory and processors upon which to
run the LUT software. The logical functions of all the relevant
screens are much the same. I just happen to have Dell screens so I
used my particular knowlege of them as reference point to ask you
questions about the Apple 5k. And it was you, in
Message-ID: who raised the
matter of Dell.

Further,
as you say, it is made by LG as is the Apple 5k display.


the first retina imac was, but i don't know about the current one, nor
does it matter. do you know who fabbed the processor in your microwave
oven? would knowing that make your food taste better? no and no.

what matters is that the current retina 5k display is a dci-p3 wide
gamut retina display that's simply spectacular.


And if you want to run AdobeRGB, how do you go about selecting that
color spand how do you go about calibrating the 5k to that color
space?


With a Mac you simply go to the OS System preferences, select “Displays”
and select whichever display profile you want, AdobeRGB, RGB Wide Gamut,
ProPhotoRGB, or calibration profile from whichever calibration tool you use.
This can be used for the built-in iMac 4K and 5K displays, or any additional
second displays for Mac Mini, or Mac Pro.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lvhrnp8r0bmb0qv/screenshot_73.png

--

Regards,
Savageduck

  #150  
Old July 3rd 17, 03:58 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default Where I keep my spare cats.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:


If the Dell 5K is anything like the the two 25" UP2516D screens that
I
have just bought there is an awful lot of memory and computing power
inside to deal with multiple color spaces etc. It's not just a bare
display. I have no idea of how the Apple 5K compares in this respect
or how it handles the equivalent problems.

whatever is needed is part of the imac itself.

That's right, so how nay color spaces does it recognise and how are
they calibrated?

as many as you want (within the limits of the panel) and with a
hardware puck.

So within the limits of the panel, how many color spaces does it
recognise and how are they calibrated?


a panel does not recognize colour spaces nor is there a number. it's
just a component out of many.


So there are no preset color spaces.


of course not. it's just a panel. does the cpu/gpu have preset colour
spaces? nope.

So how then do you go about
configuring the 5k if you want it to display the (say) AdobeRGB color
space?


you choose adobe rgb from the displays system preference and/or
photoshop or whatever other app you are using (if the app offers a
choice).

you can also use a puck to calibrate it to whatever you want it to be.

that has nothing to do with the panel hardware.
 




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