Tech Support?

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

the mere fact that the ipad shows up in the usb device tree is proof
(and i doubt you know what that means).

Of course Peter wouldn't know what that means. He doesn't use a Mac &
he doesn't own an iPad.

one does not need to own a mac or an ipad to understand how usb works.

he doesn't know what it means because he's non-technical and won't
admit when he's in over his head.

This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

it might.

It doesn't help Peter when he's up against someone who is prepared to
bull**** their way through an argument.

i'm not bull****ting anything.

Nospam knows very well that what I said about the Lightning port not
being USB compliant was correct but you will never get him to admit
it.

this isn't about the *port*.

it's about whether an ipad is usb compliant, and it is. this is a fact,
which the above screen shot clearly proves.

you don't think apple is forging a vendor/device id, do you? the usb-if
does not take kindly to that. just ask palm.

In article , Sandman
wrote:

Still, the port itself is not technically a USB port without the Lightning
cable.

It is a USB port in the sense that it supports the USB *protocol* and
the USB *specification*. It does not directly support a USB *connector*
no.

Apples iOS connectors (dock connector, lightning) have always been
supersets of USB in varying degree. But they have always been USB
compliant.

correct.

I use a Wacom Cintiq, that has a fat cable coming out of its back that
in turn splits into a power plug, a video plug and... an USB plug. The
Cintiq doesn't have a USB *port* but is USB compliant.

there are also bus-powered hard drives with a dual cable to sap power
from two ports because one usb port can't source enough power. not only
is a dual cable not usb compliant, but neither is the hard drive since
it requires more power than usb can legitimately source. i don't see
anyone bitching about that.

since usb bus-powered drives are so common, usb ports can source more
power so you don't need the clumsy dual cable, but that actually makes
the usb port non-compliant. i don't see anyone bitching about that
either.

some cameras have a custom cable to go between its custom connector and
a computer's usb port. where's the bitching about that?

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

Some enterprising person invented the towing hitch.

cars don't come with towing hitches.

My son is driving a SUV that came with towing package. The rear
bumper has a factory-installed towing package. All he had to buy
post-sale was the ball.

suv != car.

that means you have to add a hitch to the car, which also must be done
properly to not damage the car and not come off unexpectedly (i.e.,
have a mechanic do it).

Well, I bought a hitch online and installed it myself on my Toyota
RAV4. All modern cars come from the factory with threaded holes for a
hitch. You just have to order the right hitch for the vehicle model
and have a socket set. Installing the wiring package was more
difficult than bolting on the hitch. I don't trust those crimp
things.

even if the car has holes for the hitch, you still have to buy the
hitch and hook it up, and that assumes you already have the necessary
tools install it (not everyone does) or the inclination to install it.

if not, you have to hire a mechanic to do it, at an additional expense.

and it proves my point, that a car is not designed for moving pianos or
other large objects. you have to *add* stuff to do it.

I have a bicycle rack that fits on the hitch and a 4' x 8' utility
trailer, so I needed a trailer hitch.

most people don't have either one.

you also have to get a trailer suitable to hold a piano (the smaller
ones probably aren't) and be sure the car can tow the weight of the
trailer+piano. not all cars can.

You shouldn't make stuff up when you don't know what you're talking
about.

i'm not making anything up. not all cars are designed for towing. some
come equipped with heavy duty cooling systems so they don't overheat
when towing.

again, you're actually proving my point by what you posted. the fact
that you have to add a hitch and trailer to a car to move a piano means
the car was not designed to move stuff.

since all you do is argue, you nitpick every inconsequential detail you
can find.

When my mother died, I took her piano to a music store to be sold on
consignment. (We already have a piano at our house). I rented a
small trailer (4' x 8') from U-Haul with one of those drop-down rear
gates and used a sheet of plywood over the gate to make a ramp.

that's not the smallest trailer they have. you need one that can hold a
piano, just like i said would be needed. thanks for confirming that i
was correct.

The piano was an upright that weighed 320 pounds according to the call
I made to the music store before deciding to move it myself. Pianos
are basically hollow; most of the weight is the wood itself.

A full grand piano may weigh as much as 1,000 pounds, but uprights and
spinets range from 300 to 500 pounds. It would be difficult to move a
full grand on a trailer, but because of the width, not the weight.
Also, you'd need a loading dock at both ends. It's less safe to move
a grand because a grand has legs, and that changes the center of
gravity and moving them puts stress on the legs.

i was thinking of a grand piano.

U-Haul rented me flat, padded dollies with wheels to move the piano on
the ground. It took three people to push it up the ramp, but it
wasn't really a problem. I padded it with furniture pads and strapped
it down.

that's nice.

320 pounds in a trailer, even a small trailer, is nothing. A small
trailer is rated for 2,000 pounds of load. A 19' Wellcraft boat
weighs 2,200 pounds, and cars tow them.

the trailer may be able to hold a piano, but not all cars can deal with
pulling the additional weight, especially over hills.

you also have to be able to drive an articulating vehicle, something
that's not as easy as a truck, especially on hills and curves.

You must not have ever driven towing a trailer. I've driven many
miles towing a boat and never been bothered by hills or curves.

tell that to those who jackknifed. even experienced tractor-trailer
drivers can jackknife.

and what hills? you live in florida.

try towing a trailer across real hills, like the rocky mountains or
better yet, i5 through the siskiyous, which not just a steep grade, but
with many twists and turns.

I suspect you would have just stood there and said "You are crazy for
wanting to do that".

i would hire piano movers and let them do it. they know how to
efficiently move a piano without damaging it. i do not, nor do i know
anyone who does.

The rules are pretty simple: don't drop it, don't let it tip over,
and cover it well. The music store wanted $250 to pick up the piano,
but they have to pay for labor and it's a "gotcha" thing for most
people who sell pianos.

i'd much rather pay someone to do it. i have better things to do with
my time.

and guess what - they won't show up in a car with a tow hitch. they
will show up with a truck.

The primary reason is not the weight or the size once loaded, but that
a truck can have a lift gate and you have to push a piano up a ramp if
you use a trailer.

in other words, trucks are better suited to moving pianos, just like i
said.

On 2013-10-04 10:00:16 -0700, nospam said:

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:



You must not have ever driven towing a trailer. I've driven many
miles towing a boat and never been bothered by hills or curves.

tell that to those who jackknifed. even experienced tractor-trailer
drivers can jackknife.

and what hills? you live in florida.

In Florida speed bumps are considered hills.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

By your logic, then, a computer - even a Mac - is not designed for use
in photo editing with programs like Adobe Photoshop because you have
to *add* stuff and install it.

wow, that's twisted logic. with rare exception, installing software is
a normal part of using a computer. installing parts on a car is not.

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

You must not have ever driven towing a trailer. I've driven many
miles towing a boat and never been bothered by hills or curves.

tell that to those who jackknifed. even experienced tractor-trailer
drivers can jackknife.

and what hills? you live in florida.

In Florida speed bumps are considered hills.

You probably know this, but you don't jackknife taking a curve. You
jackknife because you brake hard and fast...even on a straight, flat
road.

and you probably know this, but you can't go as fast on a curve as on
straight roads, which means you need to brake prior to the curve,
sometimes by quite a bit. otherwise you'll have bigger problems than
just a jackknife.

you also may need to brake on a downgrade, which is why there are
runaway ramps.

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:

By your logic, then, a computer - even a Mac - is not designed for use
in photo editing with programs like Adobe Photoshop because you have
to *add* stuff and install it.

wow, that's twisted logic. with rare exception, installing software is
a normal part of using a computer. installing parts on a car is not.

Not to you, maybe. I considered it normal. I replaced a tail light
bulb on my wife's car yesterday. I've changed tires.

that's a repair, and most people don't do even that. they take it to a
mechanic.

Installing programs on a computer can be extremely alien and difficult
to some people.

maybe on an older computer where you have to deal with the file system
and what goes where.

installing apps from an app store is trivial. just tap the download
button. it doesn't get any easier.

Photoshop was not a simple installation.

huh? installing photoshop is little more than running the installer,
enter in the serial number when it asks and let it do its thing. not
quite as easy as tapping one button in an app store, but nowhere near
what i'd call complex.

if you want complex, try installing unix apps, when all you get is
source code and a makefile, especially when the hardware isn't what the
makefile expects.

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 12:59:53 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

At the moment it's an impossible use case. That makes it extremely
uncommon.

it's not impossible, as hd support can be done via jailbreaking.
however, even those who jailbreak don't even bother doing it.

who wants to have hard drives hanging off their mobile devices? it
makes the devices non-mobile. it's stupid.

S'funny. I have a hard drive and some stuff even larger hanging of my
iPad whenever I back it up, synchronise it etc.

no you don't.

what you might have is an ipad plugged into a computer's usb port
(since it supports usb), and the *computer* has a hard drive attached
to *it*. backups and syncing is done via software on the computer,
namely itunes.

but you don't need to do that. you can backup and sync *without*
tethering it to a computer.

apple added wifi syncing a couple of years ago because people didn't
want to plug it into a computer all the time, for the reason i gave.

they also added icloud backups which makes it even easier since you
don't need a computer or a hard drive at all (itunes has to be running
for wifi sync). it's all automatic, as it should be.

How do I run iTunes without a computer.

exactly my point.

you have it connected to a computer, not a hard drive.

iTunes is the subject.

no, the subject is whether an ipad is usb compliant or not.

don't try to change the subject.

I'm not changing the subject. I'm trying to get an answer to the
question just six lines above "How do I run I tunes without a
computer?"

What's the range of the iPad's WiFi link.

depends on the wifi network.

Whatever it is I am still effectively tethered to the computer.

you aren't tethered when on wifi. tether means cable.

Running your own unique word meanings again?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethering

"Tethering refers to connecting one device to another. In the
context of mobile phones or Internet tablets, tethering allows
sharing the Internet connection of the phone or tablet with other
devices such as laptops. Connection of the phone or tablet with
other devices can be done over wireless LAN (Wi-Fi), over
Bluetooth or by physical connection using a cable, for example
through USB."

"If tethering is done over Wi-Fi, the feature may be branded as a
Mobile Hotspot."

this may come to you as surprise, but words can have more than one
meaning.

What! Tethering does not mean "connecting one device to another"? You
surprise me. What does it mean to you in the context of iPads and
computers?

what you cite is an entirely different form of tethering, unrelated to
what is being discussed. i'm not talking about mobile hotspots and
using a phone as a gateway.

Neither am I.

I am referring to connecting one device to another.

i'm talking about having it attached to a computer via a cord which
can't be removed or whatever process happening on the computer will
fail. that is called being tethered.

Cords? That's old fashioned. Modern systems don't use cords.

you are once again, nitpicking inconsequential details just to argue.

I'm trying to (hopelessly) point out to you the inconsistencies in
what you are saying.

Come to think of it, I
have even more stuff hanging off it when I plug it into the wall of my
house when I want to charge. You want to try walking around with a
house attached, especially when you are inside the house!

charging obviously needs to be tethered, but it can be done when the
ipad is *not* in use, such as overnight.

But I want to use my iPad at night!

then charge it during the day.

I didn't say 'only at night'.

I want to use my iPad anytime both night and day.

when do you sleep? do you sleep? that's when you charge it.

To late. It's gone flat before then.

the ipad will easily last more than a day in typical use (usually
several days), so there's rarely a need to charge it while using it
(although you can, of course).

the point is the battery lasts many days in normal use and you *will*
have to sleep at some point. charge it then.

ipads last well in excess of a day on battery in continuous use (which
means several days in typical use) so there's almost never a reason to
charge it while actually using it.

in other words, the lack of mobility while charging is a non-issue.

So how is that lack of mobility when charging is a non-issue but lack
of mobility when PeterN want's to do his thing is a BIG issue?

because he's not sleeping at the time.

But I may be awake when charging becomes necessary!

you might be. so what?

Then I'm tied to the wall of my house.

it's not worth the bother to support. there are far more important
things to do than satisfy a couple of people who don't understand
mobile devices.

"Don't understand" = "Want's to do somethhing you don't want to do"

or more accurately, 'is trying to get it to do things for which it was
not designed and wondering why it isn't working.'

All it lacks is the software.

it doesn't matter what it lacks. it's not designed to do certain things
and trying to get it to do those things is not going to meet with much
success.

I'm sure that's nonsense.

based on what?

A quick walk down the aisle of an aircraft. Mind you, it was in a
hangar for service at the time.

All it requires is the right app and PeterN
can supply the necessary external hardware.

if you're so sure it can be done and so sure that there's a big market
for this particular feature, why don't you write such an app?

Because _I_ have no desire for such an app.

mobile devices are different than laptops. having hard drives
hanging
off of a mobile device makes it non-mobile. it's a stupid idea on
its
face. there's no point in implementing something that's stupid.

Not for you, obviously, but PeterN sees some point in it. Who are you
to say he's wrong?

this may come to you as a surprise, but apple did not design the ipad
just for peter.

Or for you.

i never said it was designed for me. it's designed for the masses.

Some of whom would no doubt want to do what PeterN wants to do.

very, very few.

How do you know? Have you been flying again?

by paying attention to the industry and looking at analytics data.

What data. Do tell.

You see this as a problem which you wish to avoid. Other people would
see it as an opportunity.

most people don't care. they realize what the ipad is good at and what
it's not good at and choose accordingly.

That's why so many apps have been written to do things which were not
built into the original device.

none of those can add features that are impossible to do.

What's impossible in what PeterN wants to do?

that means there is a small number of people for whom another product
would be a better choice.

they designed the ipad for common use cases. they did not design it for
every possible use case under the sun, something which is incredibly
stupid. that's a recipe for failure.

what's also stupid is trying to use a device for something it was not
intended and then ranting how it's a subpar device because of some
niche use case is not fulfilled. there are better solutions for what he
wants to do. nothing wrong with that. no device can do everything
perfectly.

like i said, if you want to move a piano you something designed to move
large heavy objects, namely a truck and a couple of helpers too.

what you *don't* do is try to figure out how to fit a piano into a car.
a car was never designed to move pianos. maybe it can be done in some
bizarre edge cases, but it's not going to be a pleasant experience. a
car is the *wrong* solution.

Some enterprising person invented the towing hitch.

cars don't come with towing hitches.

Very astute of you to notice that.

in other words, a car is not a good choice for moving a piano, as i
said.

Maybe so, but I've done it.

not without adding equipment to the car, you didn't.

Quite true, but I've still done it.

just about every piano that's moved is done in a truck and i'm pretty
sure you know that. the fact that a tiny fraction might be moved by a
car towing a trailer does not change that. as i said, edge cases.

you're just arguing to argue, as usual.

that means you have to add a hitch to the car, which also must be done
properly to not damage the car and not come off unexpectedly (i.e.,
have a mechanic do it).

Computers used to be like that. Now you can do almost anything of
which the device is capable just by writing a suitable 'app'.

you could always write an app for a computer, even decades ago.

But it's not possible to write a suitable one for the iPad today, so
you say.

there were plenty of things that were not possible for older computers
either.

everything has limitations.

Why can't what PeterN wants be done? What functionality is missing
from an iPad?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On 2013-10-04 11:13:12 -0700, Tony Cooper said:

On Fri, 4 Oct 2013 10:12:18 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-10-04 10:00:16 -0700, nospam said:

In article , Tony Cooper
wrote:



You must not have ever driven towing a trailer. I've driven many
miles towing a boat and never been bothered by hills or curves.

tell that to those who jackknifed. even experienced tractor-trailer
drivers can jackknife.

and what hills? you live in florida.

In Florida speed bumps are considered hills.

You probably know this, but you don't jackknife taking a curve. You
jackknife because you brake hard and fast...even on a straight, flat
road.

I didn't make any snide remarks regarding jackknifing, just Florida
hills. You are correct, a truck/tractor driver, or any driver is
unlikely to have to deal with hills or curves in Florida.


Regards,

Savageduck

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 13:00:05 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Sandman
wrote:

Still, the port itself is not technically a USB port without the Lightning
cable.

It is a USB port in the sense that it supports the USB *protocol* and
the USB *specification*. It does not directly support a USB *connector*
no.

Apples iOS connectors (dock connector, lightning) have always been
supersets of USB in varying degree. But they have always been USB
compliant.

correct.

I use a Wacom Cintiq, that has a fat cable coming out of its back that
in turn splits into a power plug, a video plug and... an USB plug. The
Cintiq doesn't have a USB *port* but is USB compliant.

there are also bus-powered hard drives with a dual cable to sap power
from two ports because one usb port can't source enough power. not only
is a dual cable not usb compliant, but neither is the hard drive since
it requires more power than usb can legitimately source. i don't see
anyone bitching about that.

Lots of devices (e.g. printers, scanners, external HDDs) require more
power than can be supplied by USB. Yet they use USB connections. Are
you really saying these devices are not USB compliant?

since usb bus-powered drives are so common, usb ports can source more
power so you don't need the clumsy dual cable, but that actually makes
the usb port non-compliant. i don't see anyone bitching about that
either.

some cameras have a custom cable to go between its custom connector and
a computer's usb port. where's the bitching about that?

Who is bitching?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens