Tech Support?

On Thu, 3 Oct 2013 19:39:28 -0700, Savageduck
wrote:

On 2013-10-03 18:32:51 -0700, nospam said:

In article , PeterN
wrote:

That was my point. If the port doesn't have full USB functionality, and
then it's not USB.

But USB functionality does not include software to support each or any
of the zillions of different devices which may be plugged into the
port. The provision of the software is up to the manufacturer of the
hardware (in this case, Apple).

that is correct.

not supporting a particular device does not mean it's not usb compliant.

OK Prove that it is compliant.

the burden is on you to prove that it's not. all existing evidence
shows that it is compliant, which everyone except you can see.

you're the one who claims it's not compliant and is fabricating things
apple said about it. in other words, bull****.

IOW you cannot prove it is a USB port. I sent you a link, that you ignored.

i didn't ignore it.

i said it's nothing more than someone on a public forum saying it
doesn't have usb. that is *not* an official statement and that person
is not speaking in any official capacity.

it's like citing wikipedia as an authoritative source.

Now show me one piece of Apple literature that says the lightning
connector on the iPad is a USB port.

show me one piece of apple literature that says it isn't. you claim
apple told you that, so they must have such a document. absent that,
you're blowing smoke.

the mere fact that the ipad shows up in the usb device tree is proof
(and i doubt you know what that means).

Of course Peter wouldn't know what that means. He doesn't use a Mac &
he doesn't own an iPad.
This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

I'm afraid that doesn't deal with the point at issue which is whether
or not the Lightning port is USB compliant as it stands. The fact is
that is it not so compliant and requires an external adaptor to make
it so.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 23:04:07 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article 201310031939289530-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom, Savageduck
wrote:

OK Prove that it is compliant.

the burden is on you to prove that it's not. all existing evidence
shows that it is compliant, which everyone except you can see.

you're the one who claims it's not compliant and is fabricating things
apple said about it. in other words, bull****.

IOW you cannot prove it is a USB port. I sent you a link, that you ignored.

i didn't ignore it.

i said it's nothing more than someone on a public forum saying it
doesn't have usb. that is *not* an official statement and that person
is not speaking in any official capacity.

it's like citing wikipedia as an authoritative source.

Now show me one piece of Apple literature that says the lightning
connector on the iPad is a USB port.

show me one piece of apple literature that says it isn't. you claim
apple told you that, so they must have such a document. absent that,
you're blowing smoke.

the mere fact that the ipad shows up in the usb device tree is proof
(and i doubt you know what that means).

Of course Peter wouldn't know what that means. He doesn't use a Mac &
he doesn't own an iPad.

one does not need to own a mac or an ipad to understand how usb works.

he doesn't know what it means because he's non-technical and won't
admit when he's in over his head.

This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

it might.

It doesn't help Peter when he's up against someone who is prepared to
bull**** their way through an argument.

Nospam knows very well that what I said about the Lightning port not
being USB compliant was correct but you will never get him to admit
it.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article ,
PeterN wrote:

But USB functionality does not include software to support each or any
of the zillions of different devices which may be plugged into the
port. The provision of the software is up to the manufacturer of the
hardware (in this case, Apple).

True. but isn't there a standard. However, nospam is insisting that the
Apple connector port is USB, when Apple say's it isn't .

You are lying, Peter.


--
Sandman[.net]

"nospam" wrote in message
...
In article , PeterN
wrote:

That was my point. If the port doesn't have full USB functionality, and
then it's not USB.

it is very definitely usb and it has full functionality.

It's a Lightning cable at the iPad connection to USB at the PC connection.

As far as I can tell, the Lightning cable connector itself is not a USB
port. That is to say, I can't plug in a something like mini-USB to USB cable
to the Lightning cable port. I absolutely need the Lightning cable to
connect to USB. Or, of course, the USB side can be connected to the charger.

Still, the port itself is not technically a USB port without the Lightning
cable.

just because a particular use case is not supported does not mean a usb
port is no longer a usb port. what a ridiculous thing to say.

Again, I would see that as it's a Lightning cable port with an ability to
connect to the PC using USB.

[snip...]

In article ,
"Daniel W. Rouse Jr." wrote:

That was my point. If the port doesn't have full USB functionality, and
then it's not USB.

it is very definitely usb and it has full functionality.

It's a Lightning cable at the iPad connection to USB at the PC connection.

As far as I can tell, the Lightning cable connector itself is not a USB
port. That is to say, I can't plug in a something like mini-USB to USB cable
to the Lightning cable port.

http://tinyurl.com/omjrg57

I absolutely need the Lightning cable to
connect to USB. Or, of course, the USB side can be connected to the charger.

Still, the port itself is not technically a USB port without the Lightning
cable.

It is a USB port in the sense that it supports the USB *protocol* and
the USB *specification*. It does not directly support a USB *connector*
no.

Apples iOS connectors (dock connector, lightning) have always been
supersets of USB in varying degree. But they have always been USB
compliant.

I use a Wacom Cintiq, that has a fat cable coming out of its back that
in turn splits into a power plug, a video plug and... an USB plug. The
Cintiq doesn't have a USB *port* but is USB compliant.

just because a particular use case is not supported does not mean a usb
port is no longer a usb port. what a ridiculous thing to say.

Again, I would see that as it's a Lightning cable port with an ability to
connect to the PC using USB.

Don't get to hung up on the "adapter" terminology. A DVi to VGA adapter
changes the digital signal to a analog signal. It adapts the *data* in
the cable as well as the connector.

The lightning connector only adapts the connector, not the data. The
lightning connector just passes on the USB compliant protocol data over
its own proprietary connector.

You may have seen this on cameras as well, who have a universal plug on
the camera that can attach to USB, power and so on.




--
Sandman[.net]

On 2013-10-03 22:50:44 -0700, Tony Cooper said:

On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 21:32:47 -0400, nospam
wrote:

Some enterprising person invented the towing hitch.

cars don't come with towing hitches.

My son is driving a SUV that came with towing package. The rear
bumper has a factory-installed towing package. All he had to buy
post-sale was the ball.

that means you have to add a hitch to the car, which also must be done
properly to not damage the car and not come off unexpectedly (i.e.,
have a mechanic do it).

Well, I bought a hitch online and installed it myself on my Toyota
RAV4. All modern cars come from the factory with threaded holes for a
hitch. You just have to order the right hitch for the vehicle model
and have a socket set. Installing the wiring package was more
difficult than bolting on the hitch. I don't trust those crimp
things.

I have a bicycle rack that fits on the hitch and a 4' x 8' utility
trailer, so I needed a trailer hitch.

you also have to get a trailer suitable to hold a piano (the smaller
ones probably aren't) and be sure the car can tow the weight of the
trailer+piano. not all cars can.

You shouldn't make stuff up when you don't know what you're talking
about.

When my mother died, I took her piano to a music store to be sold on
consignment. (We already have a piano at our house). I rented a
small trailer (4' x 8') from U-Haul with one of those drop-down rear
gates and used a sheet of plywood over the gate to make a ramp.

The piano was an upright that weighed 320 pounds according to the call
I made to the music store before deciding to move it myself. Pianos
are basically hollow; most of the weight is the wood itself.

A full grand piano may weigh as much as 1,000 pounds, but uprights and
spinets range from 300 to 500 pounds. It would be difficult to move a
full grand on a trailer, but because of the width, not the weight.
Also, you'd need a loading dock at both ends. It's less safe to move
a grand because a grand has legs, and that changes the center of
gravity and moving them puts stress on the legs.

From the grand piano my mother had (and my father has just sold) I can
tell you the bulk of the weight is in the steel harp frame, with the
slab lid as the next heavy piece.
The lid, pedals, legs and other bits & pieces are separated from the
body for the move, and the piano is reassembled at its destination.

When it is involved in a major move (not being pushed around a studio
or stage). The hinged slab lid is removed along with the keyboard cover
and the pedal mount and activation rods. Then it is turned onto its
hinge side (usually the left side opposite the deep curve on the
right). Then the legs are removed and the body is lifted onto a dolly.
Now it has a narrow profile and can be moved through doors with plenty
of room to spare. Effectively it is then no wider than your upright. In
my parents' case, their grand even fitted into an elevator that way.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

On Fri, 04 Oct 2013 07:28:34 +0200, Sandman wrote:

In article ,
PeterN wrote:

But USB functionality does not include software to support each or any
of the zillions of different devices which may be plugged into the
port. The provision of the software is up to the manufacturer of the
hardware (in this case, Apple).

True. but isn't there a standard. However, nospam is insisting that the
Apple connector port is USB, when Apple say's it isn't .

You are lying, Peter.

No he's not, at least as far as the Lightning port is concerned.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I am sure that the Lightning connector incorporates firmware which
detects which way round it has been inserted and routes the
connections to the pins accordingly. No USB specification says
anything about doing this kind of thing.

lightning is an adaptive connector that can redefine the purpose of the
various pins.

That's what I said, but apart from that you are squinking.

never heard of that word and what google shows for it does not make
sense given the context. obviously it's an insult of some sort.

it can be usb 2 and can even be usb 3 ...

But not of itself. It requires a variety of hardware to act as an
exterenal USB adaptor.

which is included, so it's a non-issue.

... (which doesn't make sense for
idevices at this time, but it might in the future). it can be used for
audio or video too.

think of it as a superset of usb, hdmi and others.

I am sure you also know that Apple sell a Lightning to USB adaptor.

they sell a lightning-usb cable, and when connected to a usb host, the
ipad is a fully compliant usb peripheral.

Dead right, and without that adaptor it cannot connect to USB. The
Lightning port is NOT USB compliant in any sense of the term.

the physical port may not be a standard usb port, but that doesn't
change anything.

the ipad is still a usb device and always has been. that's what
matters.

and apple includes the usb cable. it's a non-issue.

they also sell a camera connection kit which gives the ipad limited usb
host functionality, again, compliant with the spec.

With an adaptor.

so what? it still does it.

On that basis, the Lightning port is NOT USB compliant, but it can be
made so with an external adaptor.

the ipad is a usb device and always has been a usb device. every single
ios device is a usb device.

So too is the iPad but only with the external adaptor.

the usb cable is included, so it's a non-issue.

it's really a simple concept.

Not too simple for you to try to argue your way around it.

i'm not the one who is arguing my way around anything. i keep telling
you what it is and you keep coming up with ridiculous inconsequential
details.

you're trying to prove that the ipad is not usb compliant because it
uses a more capable port that can act as a standard usb port along with
a whole lot more.

meanwhile, the rest of the world happily plugs their ipad, iphone or
ipod touch into a usb port on a computer using the included usb cable
(or another that they bought), or they get a camera connection kit and
plug in their camera or card reader. it's *all* done using usb.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

This might help;
https://db.tt/Nb6dRzVh

I'm afraid that doesn't deal with the point at issue which is whether
or not the Lightning port is USB compliant as it stands. The fact is
that is it not so compliant and requires an external adaptor to make
it so.

the issue is if the *device* is compliant, which it is.

just because the lightning port is more capable and better designed
than a microusb port doesn't change the fact that the ipad is not a usb
compliant device.

a microusb port couldn't do what is needed. apple had to make a better
one.

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

At the moment it's an impossible use case. That makes it extremely
uncommon.

it's not impossible, as hd support can be done via jailbreaking.
however, even those who jailbreak don't even bother doing it.

who wants to have hard drives hanging off their mobile devices? it
makes the devices non-mobile. it's stupid.

S'funny. I have a hard drive and some stuff even larger hanging of my
iPad whenever I back it up, synchronise it etc.

no you don't.

what you might have is an ipad plugged into a computer's usb port
(since it supports usb), and the *computer* has a hard drive attached
to *it*. backups and syncing is done via software on the computer,
namely itunes.

but you don't need to do that. you can backup and sync *without*
tethering it to a computer.

apple added wifi syncing a couple of years ago because people didn't
want to plug it into a computer all the time, for the reason i gave.

they also added icloud backups which makes it even easier since you
don't need a computer or a hard drive at all (itunes has to be running
for wifi sync). it's all automatic, as it should be.

How do I run iTunes without a computer.

exactly my point.

you have it connected to a computer, not a hard drive.

iTunes is the subject.

no, the subject is whether an ipad is usb compliant or not.

don't try to change the subject.

What's the range of the iPad's WiFi link.

depends on the wifi network.

Whatever it is I am still effectively tethered to the computer.

you aren't tethered when on wifi. tether means cable.

Running your own unique word meanings again?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tethering

"Tethering refers to connecting one device to another. In the
context of mobile phones or Internet tablets, tethering allows
sharing the Internet connection of the phone or tablet with other
devices such as laptops. Connection of the phone or tablet with
other devices can be done over wireless LAN (Wi-Fi), over
Bluetooth or by physical connection using a cable, for example
through USB."

"If tethering is done over Wi-Fi, the feature may be branded as a
Mobile Hotspot."

this may come to you as surprise, but words can have more than one
meaning.

what you cite is an entirely different form of tethering, unrelated to
what is being discussed. i'm not talking about mobile hotspots and
using a phone as a gateway.

i'm talking about having it attached to a computer via a cord which
can't be removed or whatever process happening on the computer will
fail. that is called being tethered.

you are once again, nitpicking inconsequential details just to argue.

Come to think of it, I
have even more stuff hanging off it when I plug it into the wall of my
house when I want to charge. You want to try walking around with a
house attached, especially when you are inside the house!

charging obviously needs to be tethered, but it can be done when the
ipad is *not* in use, such as overnight.

But I want to use my iPad at night!

then charge it during the day.

I didn't say 'only at night'.

I want to use my iPad anytime both night and day.

when do you sleep? do you sleep? that's when you charge it.

the ipad will easily last more than a day in typical use (usually
several days), so there's rarely a need to charge it while using it
(although you can, of course).

the point is the battery lasts many days in normal use and you *will*
have to sleep at some point. charge it then.

ipads last well in excess of a day on battery in continuous use (which
means several days in typical use) so there's almost never a reason to
charge it while actually using it.

in other words, the lack of mobility while charging is a non-issue.

So how is that lack of mobility when charging is a non-issue but lack
of mobility when PeterN want's to do his thing is a BIG issue?

because he's not sleeping at the time.

But I may be awake when charging becomes necessary!

you might be. so what?

it's not worth the bother to support. there are far more important
things to do than satisfy a couple of people who don't understand
mobile devices.

"Don't understand" = "Want's to do somethhing you don't want to do"

or more accurately, 'is trying to get it to do things for which it was
not designed and wondering why it isn't working.'

All it lacks is the software.

it doesn't matter what it lacks. it's not designed to do certain things
and trying to get it to do those things is not going to meet with much
success.

I'm sure that's nonsense.

based on what?

All it requires is the right app and PeterN
can supply the necessary external hardware.

if you're so sure it can be done and so sure that there's a big market
for this particular feature, why don't you write such an app?

mobile devices are different than laptops. having hard drives
hanging
off of a mobile device makes it non-mobile. it's a stupid idea on
its
face. there's no point in implementing something that's stupid.

Not for you, obviously, but PeterN sees some point in it. Who are you
to say he's wrong?

this may come to you as a surprise, but apple did not design the ipad
just for peter.

Or for you.

i never said it was designed for me. it's designed for the masses.

Some of whom would no doubt want to do what PeterN wants to do.

very, very few.

How do you know? Have you been flying again?

by paying attention to the industry and looking at analytics data.

You see this as a problem which you wish to avoid. Other people would
see it as an opportunity.

most people don't care. they realize what the ipad is good at and what
it's not good at and choose accordingly.

That's why so many apps have been written to do things which were not
built into the original device.

none of those can add features that are impossible to do.

that means there is a small number of people for whom another product
would be a better choice.

they designed the ipad for common use cases. they did not design it for
every possible use case under the sun, something which is incredibly
stupid. that's a recipe for failure.

what's also stupid is trying to use a device for something it was not
intended and then ranting how it's a subpar device because of some
niche use case is not fulfilled. there are better solutions for what he
wants to do. nothing wrong with that. no device can do everything
perfectly.

like i said, if you want to move a piano you something designed to move
large heavy objects, namely a truck and a couple of helpers too.

what you *don't* do is try to figure out how to fit a piano into a car.
a car was never designed to move pianos. maybe it can be done in some
bizarre edge cases, but it's not going to be a pleasant experience. a
car is the *wrong* solution.

Some enterprising person invented the towing hitch.

cars don't come with towing hitches.

Very astute of you to notice that.

in other words, a car is not a good choice for moving a piano, as i
said.

Maybe so, but I've done it.

not without adding equipment to the car, you didn't.

just about every piano that's moved is done in a truck and i'm pretty
sure you know that. the fact that a tiny fraction might be moved by a
car towing a trailer does not change that. as i said, edge cases.

you're just arguing to argue, as usual.

that means you have to add a hitch to the car, which also must be done
properly to not damage the car and not come off unexpectedly (i.e.,
have a mechanic do it).

Computers used to be like that. Now you can do almost anything of
which the device is capable just by writing a suitable 'app'.

you could always write an app for a computer, even decades ago.

But it's not possible to write a suitable one for the iPad today, so
you say.

there were plenty of things that were not possible for older computers
either.

everything has limitations.