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Reducing fog in expired film



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 31st 11, 02:57 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Frank Pittel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 92
Default Reducing fog in expired film

I have a bunch of long expired film that I'm working on developing. To keep things simple I'm using D76 diluted 1:1 and am
having problems with fogging. I know that Benzotriazol should help and that Potasium Bromide may help. Does anyone
have experience with either approach or have other suggestions? I'm also interested in home much much I can add to
the stock D76.

--




-------------------
Keep working dumbo needs the money
  #2  
Old February 3rd 11, 05:53 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Frank Pittel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 92
Default Reducing fog in expired film

Richard Knoppow wrote:
: On Jan 30, 5:57??pm, Frank Pittel wrote:
: I have a bunch of long expired film that I'm working on developing. To keep things simple I'm using D76 diluted 1:1 and am
: having problems with fogging. I know that Benzotriazol should help and that Potasium Bromide may help. Does anyone
: have experience with either approach or have other suggestions? I'm also interested in home much much I can add to
: the stock D76.
:
: --
:
: -------------------
: Keep working dumbo needs the money

: There is a chart showing benzotriazole use in _Modern
: Photographic Processing_ by Grant Haist. However, fog in negatives may
: look bad but for the most part just increases printing time a bit,
: provided its uniform. The film should be given a bit more exposure
: than if it was fog free. Increasing development will increase the fog
: along with the contrast so is not useful. Bromide will also reduce
: fog. It seems to have more effect on film speed than benzotriazole,
: the remarks above apply to it also.
: I have been able to get rid of moderate age fog on Plus-X sheet
: film by adding about 1 gram/liter to D-76 1:1. I shot the film at
: about half the rated speed. The unexposed margins were pretty clear.
: The prints were not any better than similarly exposed film developed
: without the added bromide.

Richard,

Thanks for the quick reply. If the film were unexposed I would pitch and get
"fresh" film. Alas, the film was exposed anywhere from 20 to 40 years ago and
there's no date on the rolls. There's a lot of fog and it seems to be hurting
the shadow contrast. To get any kind of reasonable print we and the others
working on the project are being forced to do a lot of printing with two (or
in some cases three) filters. One of the filters generally being a #5 so we get
some contrast in the shadows after using a 2-3.5 filter for the main exposure.
My hope is that by reducing the fog we would pick up the contrast in the shadow.
With minor exceptions the fog is uniform and "printing through the fog" is
working alright.

Frank

BTW - I ordered the Haist books a few days prior to my original post and have since
recieved it. For those that haven't seen or read it Grant Haist is an amazing
talent and I wish I got the books years ago!!

--




-------------------
Keep working dumbo needs the money
  #3  
Old February 5th 11, 09:37 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default Reducing fog in expired film


"Frank Pittel" wrote in
message
...
Richard Knoppow wrote:
: On Jan 30, 5:57??pm, Frank Pittel
wrote:
: I have a bunch of long expired film that I'm working
on developing. To keep things simple I'm using D76 diluted
1:1 and am
: having problems with fogging. I know that Benzotriazol
should help and that Potasium Bromide may help. Does
anyone
: have experience with either approach or have other
suggestions? I'm also interested in home much much I can
add to
: the stock D76.
:
: --
:
: -------------------
: Keep working dumbo needs the money

: There is a chart showing benzotriazole use in
_Modern
: Photographic Processing_ by Grant Haist. However, fog in
negatives may
: look bad but for the most part just increases printing
time a bit,
: provided its uniform. The film should be given a bit
more exposure
: than if it was fog free. Increasing development will
increase the fog
: along with the contrast so is not useful. Bromide will
also reduce
: fog. It seems to have more effect on film speed than
benzotriazole,
: the remarks above apply to it also.
: I have been able to get rid of moderate age fog on
Plus-X sheet
: film by adding about 1 gram/liter to D-76 1:1. I shot
the film at
: about half the rated speed. The unexposed margins were
pretty clear.
: The prints were not any better than similarly exposed
film developed
: without the added bromide.

Richard,

Thanks for the quick reply. If the film were unexposed I
would pitch and get
"fresh" film. Alas, the film was exposed anywhere from 20
to 40 years ago and
there's no date on the rolls. There's a lot of fog and it
seems to be hurting
the shadow contrast. To get any kind of reasonable print
we and the others
working on the project are being forced to do a lot of
printing with two (or
in some cases three) filters. One of the filters generally
being a #5 so we get
some contrast in the shadows after using a 2-3.5 filter
for the main exposure.
My hope is that by reducing the fog we would pick up the
contrast in the shadow.
With minor exceptions the fog is uniform and "printing
through the fog" is
working alright.

Frank

BTW - I ordered the Haist books a few days prior to my
original post and have since
recieved it. For those that haven't seen or read it Grant
Haist is an amazing
talent and I wish I got the books years ago!!


Grant reprinted his large book some years ago, very
high quality job. I talked to him a couple of times then via
phone. It was the last gasp of a comprehensive book on
photographic processes and chemistry. Grant also wrote a
smaller book on monobath processing which is very
interesting. Monobaths are nearly forgotten but have some
advantages over conventional processing. He discusses them
to some extent in _Modern Photoraphic Processes_ but the
small book goes into much more detail.
Grant was a scientist working for Kodak Research Labs.
I don't know if he is still alive, he was pretty old when I
got my books perhaps ten years ago now.


--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #4  
Old February 7th 11, 10:04 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Francis A. Miniter[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Reducing fog in expired film

On 2/2/2011 23:53 PM, Frank Pittel wrote:
Richard wrote:
: On Jan 30, 5:57??pm, Frank wrote:
: I have a bunch of long expired film that I'm working on developing. To keep things simple I'm using D76 diluted 1:1 and am
: having problems with fogging. I know that Benzotriazol should help and that Potasium Bromide may help. Does anyone
: have experience with either approach or have other suggestions? I'm also interested in home much much I can add to
: the stock D76.
:
: --
:
: -------------------
: Keep working dumbo needs the money

: There is a chart showing benzotriazole use in _Modern
: Photographic Processing_ by Grant Haist. However, fog in negatives may
: look bad but for the most part just increases printing time a bit,
: provided its uniform. The film should be given a bit more exposure
: than if it was fog free. Increasing development will increase the fog
: along with the contrast so is not useful. Bromide will also reduce
: fog. It seems to have more effect on film speed than benzotriazole,
: the remarks above apply to it also.
: I have been able to get rid of moderate age fog on Plus-X sheet
: film by adding about 1 gram/liter to D-76 1:1. I shot the film at
: about half the rated speed. The unexposed margins were pretty clear.
: The prints were not any better than similarly exposed film developed
: without the added bromide.

Richard,

Thanks for the quick reply. If the film were unexposed I would pitch and get
"fresh" film. Alas, the film was exposed anywhere from 20 to 40 years ago and
there's no date on the rolls. There's a lot of fog and it seems to be hurting
the shadow contrast. To get any kind of reasonable print we and the others
working on the project are being forced to do a lot of printing with two (or
in some cases three) filters. One of the filters generally being a #5 so we get
some contrast in the shadows after using a 2-3.5 filter for the main exposure.
My hope is that by reducing the fog we would pick up the contrast in the shadow.
With minor exceptions the fog is uniform and "printing through the fog" is
working alright.

Frank

BTW - I ordered the Haist books a few days prior to my original post and have since
recieved it. For those that haven't seen or read it Grant Haist is an amazing
talent and I wish I got the books years ago!!



Some years ago, the founder of Film Rescue International
(see http://www.filmrescue.com/ ) used to participate in
this forum. He had, through long trial and error - together
with a good knowledge of photochemistry - put together a
process for minimizing film in such situations. If top
quality recovery is your objective, you may want to contact
Film Rescue.

He shared some information with me at a time when I was
trying to develop some 80 year old negatives (Richard
probably recalls that trial), but I promised I would not
reveal his proprietary information. And, I have to confess,
I lost the specific email he sent, and only have fragmentary
information now anyway.

I also note that the following is a patent filed in 1966
(now in the public domain) which describes a method of fog
reduction in silver halide films.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3244522.pdf

Attention should be paid not just to the particular forms of
xylene or benzene to be used, but also to the specific
development processes described.

--
Francis A. Miniter

In dem Lande der Pygmäen
gibt es keine Uniformen,
weder Abzeichen, noch irgend welche Normen,
Und Soldaten sind dort nicht zu sehen.

Siegfried von Vegesack, "Es gibt keine Uniformen"
from In dem Lande der Pygmäen
  #5  
Old February 7th 11, 10:11 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Francis A. Miniter[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Reducing fog in expired film

On 2/7/2011 16:04 PM, Francis A. Miniter wrote:
On 2/2/2011 23:53 PM, Frank Pittel wrote:
Richard wrote:
: On Jan 30, 5:57??pm, Frank
wrote:
: I have a bunch of long expired film that I'm working on
developing. To keep things simple I'm using D76 diluted
1:1 and am
: having problems with fogging. I know that Benzotriazol
should help and that Potasium Bromide may help. Does anyone
: have experience with either approach or have other
suggestions? I'm also interested in home much much I can
add to
: the stock D76.
:
: --
:
: -------------------
: Keep working dumbo needs the money

: There is a chart showing benzotriazole use in _Modern
: Photographic Processing_ by Grant Haist. However, fog in
negatives may
: look bad but for the most part just increases printing
time a bit,
: provided its uniform. The film should be given a bit
more exposure
: than if it was fog free. Increasing development will
increase the fog
: along with the contrast so is not useful. Bromide will
also reduce
: fog. It seems to have more effect on film speed than
benzotriazole,
: the remarks above apply to it also.
: I have been able to get rid of moderate age fog on
Plus-X sheet
: film by adding about 1 gram/liter to D-76 1:1. I shot
the film at
: about half the rated speed. The unexposed margins were
pretty clear.
: The prints were not any better than similarly exposed
film developed
: without the added bromide.

Richard,

Thanks for the quick reply. If the film were unexposed I
would pitch and get
"fresh" film. Alas, the film was exposed anywhere from 20
to 40 years ago and
there's no date on the rolls. There's a lot of fog and it
seems to be hurting
the shadow contrast. To get any kind of reasonable print
we and the others
working on the project are being forced to do a lot of
printing with two (or
in some cases three) filters. One of the filters generally
being a #5 so we get
some contrast in the shadows after using a 2-3.5 filter
for the main exposure.
My hope is that by reducing the fog we would pick up the
contrast in the shadow.
With minor exceptions the fog is uniform and "printing
through the fog" is
working alright.

Frank

BTW - I ordered the Haist books a few days prior to my
original post and have since
recieved it. For those that haven't seen or read it Grant
Haist is an amazing
talent and I wish I got the books years ago!!



Some years ago, the founder of Film Rescue International
(see http://www.filmrescue.com/ ) used to participate in
this forum. He had, through long trial and error - together
with a good knowledge of photochemistry - put together a
process for minimizing film in such situations. If top
quality recovery is your objective, you may want to contact
Film Rescue.

He shared some information with me at a time when I was
trying to develop some 80 year old negatives (Richard
probably recalls that trial), but I promised I would not
reveal his proprietary information. And, I have to confess,
I lost the specific email he sent, and only have fragmentary
information now anyway.

I also note that the following is a patent filed in 1966
(now in the public domain) which describes a method of fog
reduction in silver halide films.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3244522.pdf

Attention should be paid not just to the particular forms of
xylene or benzene to be used, but also to the specific
development processes described.


Here is another relevant patent in the public domain.
Again, note the details that the two processes have in
common: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3226232.pdf

--
Francis A. Miniter

In dem Lande der Pygmäen
gibt es keine Uniformen,
weder Abzeichen, noch irgend welche Normen,
Und Soldaten sind dort nicht zu sehen.

Siegfried von Vegesack, "Es gibt keine Uniformen"
from In dem Lande der Pygmäen
  #6  
Old February 9th 11, 03:50 PM
savantcreative savantcreative is offline
Junior Member
 
First recorded activity by PhotoBanter: May 2008
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Pittel View Post
I have a bunch of long expired film that I'm working on developing. To keep things simple I'm using D76 diluted 1:1 and am
having problems with fogging. I know that Benzotriazol should help and that Potasium Bromide may help. Does anyone
have experience with either approach or have other suggestions? I'm also interested in home much much I can add to
the stock D76.

--





-------------------
Keep working dumbo needs the money
I don't think there is much else you can do. Once the film is fogged whatever you do to reduce it will reduce shadow detail. If the fog isn't too severe you can just go up a paper grade or 2 to get decent results when printing. I hope this helps.
  #7  
Old February 10th 11, 05:45 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 751
Default Reducing fog in expired film


"Francis A. Miniter" wrote in
message ...
On 2/7/2011 16:04 PM, Francis A. Miniter wrote:
On 2/2/2011 23:53 PM, Frank Pittel wrote:
Richard wrote:
: On Jan 30, 5:57??pm, Frank
wrote:
: I have a bunch of long expired film that I'm working
on
developing. To keep things simple I'm using D76 diluted
1:1 and am
: having problems with fogging. I know that
Benzotriazol
should help and that Potasium Bromide may help. Does
anyone
: have experience with either approach or have other
suggestions? I'm also interested in home much much I can
add to
: the stock D76.
:
: --
:
: -------------------
: Keep working dumbo needs the money

: There is a chart showing benzotriazole use in _Modern
: Photographic Processing_ by Grant Haist. However, fog
in
negatives may
: look bad but for the most part just increases printing
time a bit,
: provided its uniform. The film should be given a bit
more exposure
: than if it was fog free. Increasing development will
increase the fog
: along with the contrast so is not useful. Bromide will
also reduce
: fog. It seems to have more effect on film speed than
benzotriazole,
: the remarks above apply to it also.
: I have been able to get rid of moderate age fog on
Plus-X sheet
: film by adding about 1 gram/liter to D-76 1:1. I shot
the film at
: about half the rated speed. The unexposed margins were
pretty clear.
: The prints were not any better than similarly exposed
film developed
: without the added bromide.

Richard,

Thanks for the quick reply. If the film were unexposed I
would pitch and get
"fresh" film. Alas, the film was exposed anywhere from
20
to 40 years ago and
there's no date on the rolls. There's a lot of fog and
it
seems to be hurting
the shadow contrast. To get any kind of reasonable print
we and the others
working on the project are being forced to do a lot of
printing with two (or
in some cases three) filters. One of the filters
generally
being a #5 so we get
some contrast in the shadows after using a 2-3.5 filter
for the main exposure.
My hope is that by reducing the fog we would pick up the
contrast in the shadow.
With minor exceptions the fog is uniform and "printing
through the fog" is
working alright.

Frank

BTW - I ordered the Haist books a few days prior to my
original post and have since
recieved it. For those that haven't seen or read it
Grant
Haist is an amazing
talent and I wish I got the books years ago!!



Some years ago, the founder of Film Rescue International
(see http://www.filmrescue.com/ ) used to participate in
this forum. He had, through long trial and error -
together
with a good knowledge of photochemistry - put together a
process for minimizing film in such situations. If top
quality recovery is your objective, you may want to
contact
Film Rescue.

He shared some information with me at a time when I was
trying to develop some 80 year old negatives (Richard
probably recalls that trial), but I promised I would not
reveal his proprietary information. And, I have to
confess,
I lost the specific email he sent, and only have
fragmentary
information now anyway.

I also note that the following is a patent filed in 1966
(now in the public domain) which describes a method of
fog
reduction in silver halide films.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3244522.pdf

Attention should be paid not just to the particular forms
of
xylene or benzene to be used, but also to the specific
development processes described.


Here is another relevant patent in the public domain.
Again, note the details that the two processes have in
common: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3226232.pdf

--
Francis A. Miniter

Its good to see you are still here Francis. I do
remember the thread. I also talked to the guy. He gave me
some hints but not the actual process. We talked enough to
convince me that he knows what he is doing.
A good source for patents is Google Patents. One can do
a complete text search on all US patents ever issued and
download them as PDF's, much more convenient than the Fax
TIFF files from the USPTO.

--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #8  
Old February 26th 11, 03:52 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Frank Pittel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 92
Default Reducing fog in expired film

Richard Knoppow wrote:

: "Frank Pittel" wrote in
: message
: ...
: Richard Knoppow wrote:
: : On Jan 30, 5:57??pm, Frank Pittel
: wrote:
: : I have a bunch of long expired film that I'm working
: on developing. To keep things simple I'm using D76 diluted
: 1:1 and am
: : having problems with fogging. I know that Benzotriazol
: should help and that Potasium Bromide may help. Does
: anyone
: : have experience with either approach or have other
: suggestions? I'm also interested in home much much I can
: add to
: : the stock D76.
: :
: : --
: :
: : -------------------
: : Keep working dumbo needs the money
:
: : There is a chart showing benzotriazole use in
: _Modern
: : Photographic Processing_ by Grant Haist. However, fog in
: negatives may
: : look bad but for the most part just increases printing
: time a bit,
: : provided its uniform. The film should be given a bit
: more exposure
: : than if it was fog free. Increasing development will
: increase the fog
: : along with the contrast so is not useful. Bromide will
: also reduce
: : fog. It seems to have more effect on film speed than
: benzotriazole,
: : the remarks above apply to it also.
: : I have been able to get rid of moderate age fog on
: Plus-X sheet
: : film by adding about 1 gram/liter to D-76 1:1. I shot
: the film at
: : about half the rated speed. The unexposed margins were
: pretty clear.
: : The prints were not any better than similarly exposed
: film developed
: : without the added bromide.
:
: Richard,
:
: Thanks for the quick reply. If the film were unexposed I
: would pitch and get
: "fresh" film. Alas, the film was exposed anywhere from 20
: to 40 years ago and
: there's no date on the rolls. There's a lot of fog and it
: seems to be hurting
: the shadow contrast. To get any kind of reasonable print
: we and the others
: working on the project are being forced to do a lot of
: printing with two (or
: in some cases three) filters. One of the filters generally
: being a #5 so we get
: some contrast in the shadows after using a 2-3.5 filter
: for the main exposure.
: My hope is that by reducing the fog we would pick up the
: contrast in the shadow.
: With minor exceptions the fog is uniform and "printing
: through the fog" is
: working alright.
:
: Frank
:
: BTW - I ordered the Haist books a few days prior to my
: original post and have since
: recieved it. For those that haven't seen or read it Grant
: Haist is an amazing
: talent and I wish I got the books years ago!!
:

: Grant reprinted his large book some years ago, very
: high quality job. I talked to him a couple of times then via
: phone. It was the last gasp of a comprehensive book on
: photographic processes and chemistry. Grant also wrote a
: smaller book on monobath processing which is very
: interesting. Monobaths are nearly forgotten but have some
: advantages over conventional processing. He discusses them
: to some extent in _Modern Photoraphic Processes_ but the
: small book goes into much more detail.
: Grant was a scientist working for Kodak Research Labs.
: I don't know if he is still alive, he was pretty old when I
: got my books perhaps ten years ago now.

I got the books and based on the contents of the books I was able to
convince the people running the development project to try adding some
benzotriazol to the D76 they're using. While the potassium bromide also
helped it reduced the overall contrast and it was decided not to use it.

The benzotriazol has helped and is improving the shadow contrast and is
resulting in negative much easier to print.

I've got a couple of photographic projects/testing that are high up on the
list but I'd like to give monobath developers a try. No good reason but it
sounds cool! :-)

I wish there some good books about prints and developers for them!


--




-------------------
Keep working dumbo needs the money
  #9  
Old February 26th 11, 03:56 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Joe Makowiec
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 175
Default Reducing fog in expired film

On 25 Feb 2011 in rec.photo.darkroom, Frank Pittel wrote:

I wish there some good books about prints and developers for them!


Ansel Adams, 'The Print'?

http://www.amazon.com/Print-Ansel-Ad.../dp/0821221876

--
Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.org/
Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
  #10  
Old March 2nd 11, 09:29 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Frank Pittel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 92
Default Reducing fog in expired film

Joe Makowiec wrote:
: On 25 Feb 2011 in rec.photo.darkroom, Frank Pittel wrote:

: I wish there some good books about prints and developers for them!

: Ansel Adams, 'The Print'?

: http://www.amazon.com/Print-Ansel-Ad.../dp/0821221876

A very good book and I enjoyed reading the copy I have. I'm thinking more in
terms of books like the Film Developers Cookbook and Modern Photographic
Processing. Although most of what's in Modern Photographic Processing applies
to paper as well as film.
--




-------------------
Keep working dumbo needs the money
 




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